228 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 22 June 2021 - 10:20 AM, said:

Every jump jet is worth thirty meters' distance. Larger 'Mechs require heavier, more powerful jump jets to get the same thirty meters. The tax is having to pay for the larger jump jets. No, it is NOT okay for a 'Mech with four jump jets to get significantly less distance than another 'Mech with four jump jets, irrespective of the weight involved.

why shouldnt heavier mechs get taxed more for jumping? they carry more weapons. that makes perfect sense to me.

its a matter of balance. an assault jumping brings way more weapons to bear than a light. so an assault should get taxed more for jumping.

the issue I have is with omnimechs being forced to spend tonnage on locked jumpjets and not getting their tonnage worth. like the executioner.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2021 - 10:39 AM.

[Alex Morgaine]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 09:12 PM, said:

This is what we have proposed to PGI:




For reference:

The max jump height shown in mechlab is calculated as


Actual jump height in game is




where:
num_JJ = Number of JJs
thrst_z = Upward Thrust
thrst_init = Initial Upward speed
burn_dur = JJ Burn duration
Mech_ton = Mech tonnage
g = gravity (in MWO it seems to be 4*9.8 = 39.2)

My crazy mind says "PTS with double upwards thrust and speed to see how broken it might be"... and adjust accordingly. they jump they must!

[1453 R]

Khobai, on 22 June 2021 - 10:31 AM, said:

why shouldnt heavier mechs get taxed more for jumping? they have more weapons. that makes perfect sense to me.

That stance is idiotic, and it's why nobody ever takes jump jets on anything larger than 40 tons unless they absolutely have to. You're saying "heavy and assault 'Mechs shouldn't get any value from their investment in jump jets because they get to carry more weapons than lighter 'Mechs".

Okay, sure - then make every last jump jet in the game weigh half a ton. Eliminate the difference between jet weight and let larger 'Mechs get back the tonnage they're currently wasting on pointless, useless, worthless, ineffective jump jets that don't do their f*cking job. If a heavy 'Mech doesn't get to jump from the bottom of stuff to the top of stuff, then they shouldn't have to waste tonnage on failure-to-jump jets.

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 22 June 2021 - 10:37 AM, said:

That stance is idiotic, and it's why nobody ever takes jump jets on anything larger than 40 tons unless they absolutely have to. You're saying "heavy and assault 'Mechs shouldn't get any value from their investment in jump jets because they get to carry more weapons than lighter 'Mechs".

i didnt say they shouldnt get any value from their investment. just less value.

[1453 R]

Does a light 'Mech get less value from a PPC than a heavy 'Mech does? Does a light 'Mech get less value from 10 points of armor than a heavy 'Mech does?

One of the underpinnings of the entire BattleTech system is that equipment is uniform across designs. A PPC is a PPC is a PPC, no matter what it's attached to. Jump jets already break this paradigm, being heavier and more costly in terms of resources (weight) for the same benefit, but this is also the case with engines. Each ton spent on Movement/Mobility overall gets less effective the heavier your 'Mech is, but a 300-rated engine is still a 300-rated engine. The engine is the same - its ability to drive a 'Mech is impacted by the weight/size of the 'Mech it's installed in. Jump jets are wonky because they have to be, but they generally follow the same-ish paradigm - more weight for equivalent performance.

It is, however, equivalent performance. A jump jet gives 30 meters of movement. In MWO, that should translate to one jump jet providing the same* jump height to anything that mounts it. Saying "a light 'Mech can get ten meters of height from one jump jet but an assault 'Mech should only get two" breaks the whole paradigm of equipment uniformity that acts as one of the fundamental pillars and paradigms of the BattleTech universe. As well as making assault 'Mechs known for their jump performance (Highlanders, anybody?) into outright liars because a Highlander's three jump jets don't even allow it to clear ten meters of height, let alone 'Highlander Burial' anyone.

[Vlad Ward]

Nightbird, on 22 June 2021 - 08:43 AM, said:

If all mechs can reach the same height with the same % tonnage investment, I'd be fine with it, but if we want heavier mechs to have a drawback, then make heavier mechs jump a little less high or take a bit longer to reach that height, or both.

That's just math, then. If we can get confirmation on which Height formula to use, we can just crank it out.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 22 June 2021 - 10:54 AM.

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 22 June 2021 - 10:52 AM, said:

A jump jet gives 30 meters of movement.

Yes but jumpjets work entirely differently in tabletop compared to MWO. You cant directly translate it.

jumpjets in tabletop are measured in horizontal movement not vertical movement. theyre used in an entirely different way than in MWO.

so no a jumpjet should not necessarily give 30 meters of vertical movement in MWO just because it gave 30 meters of horizontal movement in tabletop.

also you cant jump and shoot at the same time in tabletop. the shooting phase occurs after your jump has landed in tabletop. so you cant use jumpjets to shoot over obstacles in tabletop like you can in MWO. jumpjets in MWO have to be balanced around being able to shoot over obstacles which is exactly why heavier mechs get penalized more for jumping because they carry more weapons. Thats always been a point of balance for jumpjets in MWO.

Quote

As well as making assault 'Mechs known for their jump performance (Highlanders, anybody?) into outright liars because a Highlander's three jump jets don't even allow it to clear ten meters of height, let alone 'Highlander Burial' anyone.

you couldnt highlander burial anyone in MWO even if the highlander could jump high enough. so thats a non-issue.

I agree the highlander should jump better than it does though. But not 90m thats ridiculous.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2021 - 11:15 AM.

[1453 R]

"30 meters is 30 meters" doesn't mean a jump jet should give thirty meters of height. It means a jump jet should give the same overall performance regardless of what it's mounted on. This whole thing people have of trying to make heavy and assault jump jets completely snowman-thong levels of utterly worthless just because they don't want FatTarts to come back is absolutely ridiculous. The equipment exists, and it should be valuable. It should also be as close to uniform as it can be across various chassis. An Executioner's four jump jets should be as valuable for it as a Kit Fox's four jump jets. If they aren't? if they offer no value, if the equipment is deliberately sabotaged on larger 'Mechs?

Why bother carrying it?

[Wid1046]

I'd be all for making all jump jets both far more powerful and greatly increasing jump speed (including for heavies and assaults) if weapons were disabled both during flight and for a couple seconds afterwards. However that would likely require an engineer, so this proposed solution is 'good enough' since it can be implemented in a month instead of on the fifth of never. Jump jets currently suck, so making them suck less is still a great improvement.

If jump jet shake can be made to last until the mech hits the ground after a jump (perhaps tying it to when jump jets start to recharge), that would also be a great way to allow for all jump jets to get greater buffs. I think that may still require an engineer though, so if that is the case it also isn't likely to be possible with the minimal resources PGI is willing to invest in the game.

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 22 June 2021 - 11:22 AM, said:

"30 meters is 30 meters" doesn't mean a jump jet should give thirty meters of height. It means a jump jet should give the same overall performance regardless of what it's mounted on. This whole thing people have of trying to make heavy and assault jump jets completely snowman-thong levels of utterly worthless just because they don't want FatTarts to come back is absolutely ridiculous. The equipment exists, and it should be valuable. It should also be as close to uniform as it can be across various chassis. An Executioner's four jump jets should be as valuable for it as a Kit Fox's four jump jets. If they aren't? if they offer no value, if the equipment is deliberately sabotaged on larger 'Mechs?

Why bother carrying it?

yeah I dont agree with that. light mechs should jump better than assaults.

for the same reason that light mechs are more agile than assaults

i dont really care if a kitfox can jumpjet better than an executioner as long as the executioner's jumpjets are good enough to justify the 8 tons they weigh.

yes the executioners jumpjets absolutely need to be buffed. probably to 60m for it to be worth 8 tons. but I see no problem with a kitfox jumping 80m-90m with the same 4 jumpjets.

Quote

This whole thing people have of trying to make heavy and assault jump jets completely snowman-thong levels of utterly worthless just because they don't want FatTarts to come back is absolutely ridiculous.

no its really not ridiculous. poptarting was the most miserable meta in the history of the game. its the last thing that needs to be brought back. assault jumpjets definitely need to be balanced with that in mind. but it should be done on a case by case basis rather than punishing every single assault.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2021 - 02:02 PM.

[1453 R]

WHY, Khobai?

Don't just say "I feel like this is true, so it should be true". Present reasoning as to why heavy and assault jump jets should be terrible while lights and 40-ton mediums, but ONLY forty-ton mediums, can fly to Bermuda?

I've already stated my argument: equipment uniformity as a very important part of BattleTech lore and the 'feel' of the universe/setting. Equipment is the same regardless of where it's mounted or what it's mounted on, with very few exceptions. Jump jets are only a half-exception - they weigh more for larger machines because otherwise the formula would be overly punitive to lighter 'Mechs, but the performance one jump jet offers to any given 'Mech is the same. The equipment is uniform, it simply weighs more for a larger design the same way a larger 'Mech can equip a larger engine to get the same movement profile as a smaller one. A 5/8 assault 'Mech, in the source material, moves exactly the same way as a 5/8 light 'Mech.

Obviously balance concerns prevent that from remaining true in MWO, but the spirit of it is still there. Vastly under-engined light 'Mechs like the absolutely god-*******-awful Cougar get weapon and durability quirks to grant them much increased firepower over their fellows even over and above what their increased payload weight already offers, while vastly over-engined Fatbros such as Mr. Gargles are generally granted much better base mobility values than other 'Mechs. 'Mechs that spend an inordinate amount of their limited tonnage on an oversized engine are allowed to be better at moving than more typical 'Mechs. 'Mechs that undercut their own engine and drop their mobility profile well below the norm for their weight class are allowed to be much better gun platforms than more typical 'Mechs.

AND 'MECHS THAT SPEND A BUNCH OF TONNAGE ON JUMP JETS ARE ALLOWED TO JUMP BETTER THAN 'MECHS THAT SPEND LITTLE OR NO TONNAGE ON JUMP JETS.

You don't really have any evidence or reasoning whatsoever to suggest that larger 'Mechs should be punished for being large other than vague mumblings about "but more firepower!" and some unfounded assumptions that light 'Mechs deserve to be better at jumping than even 'Mechs like the Executioner that spend a huge portion of their payload weight on jump jets.

So provide some reasoning, Khobai. Not baseless nonsense, but reasoning. Sell me, and everybody else, on this notion that larger 'Mechs shouldn't be allowed to jump properly or gain any benefit from tonnage invested in their jump jets.

[Vlad Ward]

Nightbird, on 22 June 2021 - 07:55 AM, said:

Did the cauldron calculate this? Here is what I got which is different from this formula:



This is all moot if activating JJs nullifies gravity or there is diminishing returns per JJ or some other weirdness in the game engine that violates even game physics.

The units on this don't quite line up.

This is what I scratched together:





Edit: Either way, the formula Navid posted doesn't make sense. The units are all wonky.

Height = Meters + Meter-Seconds + Meter/kg^2 + Newton/kg^3 + Meter/second-kg^2 ?

That doesn't work. Barring, of course, game physics magic nonsense.

Edit2: t1 in my notes should be full burn duration, not burn duration - t0. Oops.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 22 June 2021 - 02:32 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 June 2021 - 07:26 AM, said:

I can't imagine that becoming stronger than what is on the field right now.

Not the Dragon Slayer per se - the meta. Flashbacks to the bad old days where MWO was fast becoming MW3 multiplayer, with nothing but poptarting poinpoint assault mechs shooting at vaguely mech shaped clumps of pixels from a different gridsquare.

[Tlords]

vonJerg, on 22 June 2021 - 03:24 AM, said:

...put shake whenever the mech is not on the ground by using same flag that is used for heat dissipation and/or for JJ recharging. But that would totally kill poptarting for anything but a lock-ons....

OMG - I love this idea! Kill Poptarting. Kill it dead! Make Jump Jets about mobility...

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 22 June 2021 - 02:02 PM, said:

WHY, Khobai?

Don't just say "I feel like this is true, so it should be true". Present reasoning as to why heavy and assault jump jets should be terrible while lights and 40-ton mediums, but ONLY forty-ton mediums, can fly to Bermuda?

I've already stated my argument: equipment uniformity as a very important part of BattleTech lore and the 'feel' of the universe/setting. Equipment is the same regardless of where it's mounted or what it's mounted on, with very few exceptions. Jump jets are only a half-exception - they weigh more for larger machines because otherwise the formula would be overly punitive to lighter 'Mechs, but the performance one jump jet offers to any given 'Mech is the same. The equipment is uniform, it simply weighs more for a larger design the same way a larger 'Mech can equip a larger engine to get the same movement profile as a smaller one. A 5/8 assault 'Mech, in the source material, moves exactly the same way as a 5/8 light 'Mech.

Obviously balance concerns prevent that from remaining true in MWO, but the spirit of it is still there. Vastly under-engined light 'Mechs like the absolutely god-*******-awful Cougar get weapon and durability quirks to grant them much increased firepower over their fellows even over and above what their increased payload weight already offers, while vastly over-engined Fatbros such as Mr. Gargles are generally granted much better base mobility values than other 'Mechs. 'Mechs that spend an inordinate amount of their limited tonnage on an oversized engine are allowed to be better at moving than more typical 'Mechs. 'Mechs that undercut their own engine and drop their mobility profile well below the norm for their weight class are allowed to be much better gun platforms than more typical 'Mechs.

AND 'MECHS THAT SPEND A BUNCH OF TONNAGE ON JUMP JETS ARE ALLOWED TO JUMP BETTER THAN 'MECHS THAT SPEND LITTLE OR NO TONNAGE ON JUMP JETS.

Ive already told you why three times.

1) its a point of balance for heavier mechs to prevent poptarting from reoccurring.

2) light mechs should jump better than assaults because light mechs should be more agile than assaults in all ways including jumping

Quote

You don't really have any evidence or reasoning whatsoever to suggest that larger 'Mechs should be punished for being large other than vague mumblings about "but more firepower!" and some unfounded assumptions that light 'Mechs deserve to be better at jumping than even 'Mechs like the Executioner that spend a huge portion of their payload weight on jump jets.

There is evidence though. This game already went through a dark period where poptarting was the dominant meta. And it was the absolute worst meta this game has ever endured.

PGI nerfed jumpjets on heavies and assaults as a direct result of that. Thats why theyre so bad right now.

Nobody wants a repeat of that.

Im not saying jumpjets shouldnt be buffed for heavies and assaults, but buffing them to the level youre suggesting, would be completely careless. Some metas are better left dead forever.

And ive already covered the Executioner. It doesnt need to jump as high or have as much burn duration as a Kitfox to get its 8 tons worth. Because it carries more weapons than a kitfox. A kitfox has to poptart multiple times to do the same amount of damage an executioner can do with one poptart. As long as the executioner can jump well enough to justify the 8 tons it doesnt really matter if a kitfox can jump better than it does.

Its okay for the executioner to jump higher than other assaults because its weapons are fairly limited. Other assaults should be handled on a case by case basis though. Do we really want direwolves and highlanders flying around the map at 90m like you want? absolutely not

The way to fix assaults isnt to buff their jumpjets to stupid levels. its to scale them properly. thats what assaults like the executioner/dire wolf really need: to be the correct size. Not to be flying around the map.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2021 - 07:26 PM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 22 June 2021 - 06:49 PM, said:

Ive already told you why three times.

1) its a point of balance for heavier mechs to prevent poptarting from reoccurring.

2) light mechs should jump better than assaults because light mechs should be more agile than assaults in all ways including jumping



There is evidence though. This game already went through a dark period where poptarting was the dominant meta. And it was the absolute worst meta this game has ever endured.

PGI nerfed jumpjets on heavies and assaults as a direct result of that. Thats why theyre so bad right now.

Nobody wants a repeat of that.

Im not saying jumpjets shouldnt be buffed for heavies and assaults, but buffing them to the level youre suggesting, would be completely careless. Some metas are better left dead forever.

And ive already covered the Executioner. It doesnt need to jump as high or have as much burn duration as a Kitfox to get its 8 tons worth. Because it carries more weapons than a kitfox. A kitfox has to poptart multiple times to do the same amount of damage an executioner can do with one poptart. As long as the executioner can jump well enough to justify the 8 tons it doesnt really matter if a kitfox can jump better than it does.

Its okay for the executioner to jump higher than other assaults because its weapons are fairly limited. Other assaults should be handled on a case by case basis though. Do we really want direwolves and highlanders flying around the map at 90m like you want? absolutely not

The way to fix assaults isnt to buff their jumpjets to stupid levels. its to scale them properly. thats what assaults like the executioner/dire wolf really need: to be the correct size. Not to be flying around the map.

A 30 Ton kitfox poptarting 2 ERPPC does 30 damage, while a 95 Executioner "poptarting, such as it is" potentially does 45 damage alpha'ing 3 ERPPC while eating the ghost heat. The Kit fox on a single poptart does 2/3rds of the damage of an executioner, so it doesn't have poptart multiple times match the damage. It would be 3 poptarts from a Kitfox to match 2 poptarts from a Executioner, except the executioner has to cooldown each poptart from about 95% full heatbar before it can jump and alpha 3. If the Exe only shoots 2 ERPPC on the jump to be more heat efficient, then it is exactly the same as a 30 ton kitfox in terms of alpha potential.

Edited by Vxheous, 22 June 2021 - 08:07 PM.

[Nightbird]

Vlad Ward, on 22 June 2021 - 02:15 PM, said:

The units on this don't quite line up.

This is what I scratched together:





Edit: Either way, the formula Navid posted doesn't make sense. The units are all wonky.

Height = Meters + Meter-Seconds + Meter/kg^2 + Newton/kg^3 + Meter/second-kg^2 ?

That doesn't work. Barring, of course, game physics magic nonsense.

Edit2: t1 in my notes should be full burn duration, not burn duration - t0. Oops.

Dividing 4g by mech_ton in your v(t) calculation doesn't make sense because gravity is force applied proportionally to all mass, a feather falls at the same speed as a balling ball without atmosphere and all.

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 22 June 2021 - 08:05 PM, said:

A 30 Ton kitfox poptarting 2 ERPPC does 30 damage, while a 95 Executioner "poptarting, such as it is" potentially does 45 damage alpha'ing 3 ERPPC while eating the ghost heat. The Kit fox on a single poptart does 2/3rds of the damage of an executioner, so it doesn't have poptart multiple times match the damage. It would be 3 poptarts from a Kitfox to match 2 poptarts from a Executioner, except the executioner has to cooldown each poptart from about 95% full heatbar before it can jump and alpha 3. If the Exe only shoots 2 ERPPC on the jump to be more heat efficient, then it is exactly the same as a 30 ton kitfox in terms of alpha potential.

an executioner can do far more than 45 damage if it poptarts with pulse lasers.

if you want to run 3 erppcs with jumpjets theres far better clan mechs for it than the executioner.

if you run a subpar build on an executioner you can make just about anything look favorable to it.

the executioner is very much about boating tons of lasers and then using masc and jumpjets to poke while minimizing the return fire. at least thats how I play it. and my alpha is a lot higher than 45 damage.

its not at all necessary for the executioner to jump as far or often as a kitfox. yes the executioner needs a buff to its jumpjets but anything more than 60m is probably too much. It certainly doesnt need the 120m that one guy wants; which is what im arguing against.

besides the point still stands that a kitfox should jump higher than an executioner because a kitfox is a light mech and light mechs should be more agile than assaults, including when it comes to jumping.

and certainly heavies/assaults with better hardpoints and more offensive potential than the executioner should be more limited in their jumping ability. i know you have an agenda to bring back poptarting but not everyone wants that. PGI nerfed jumpjets on heavies and assaults for a reason, because they were abused in the past. I think jumpjet buffs need to handled on a case by case basis to avoid past mistakes. Because not all mechs are equal when it comes to jumpjet buffs and certain mechs will benefit from it A LOT more than others.

You should not be buffing jumpjets the same for all mechs. mechs with lower hardpoints should be the ones getting prioritized for jumpjet buffs since its harder for their weapons to clear terrain than mechs with higher hardpoints. And mechs with higher hardpoints need jumpjet buffs less. Of course theres other factors as well but the point is not all mechs should be treated the same for purposes of jumpjet buffs.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2021 - 10:45 PM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 22 June 2021 - 09:58 PM, said:

an executioner can do far more than 45 damage if it poptarts with pulse lasers.

if you run a subpar build on an executioner you can make just about anything look favorable to it.

if you want to run 3 erppcs with jumpjets theres far better clan mechs for it than the executioner.

The 3 ERPPC + ton of micro pulse/micro ER lasers is the goto meta Executioner right now, so instead of being a subpar build as you said, it is the top comp build for executioners.

[Meep Meep]

Nice. So the single jj I have on my jenner will do more than help climb hills or hop over very low cover now.