143 replies to this topic

[Far Reach]

pattonesque, on 04 October 2021 - 05:25 AM, said:

You do hate them. Despise them, really. You just don’t quite have the courage to be honest about it, so you resort to this weird thing where you pretend you have their best interests at heart.

I think you should be more honest about what you’ve chosen to become. It’s really the only way to be introspective and therefore better.

The fact you're so sure of this is downright terrifying.

[TENTACLE BOSS]

Echidna, on 04 October 2021 - 05:37 AM, said:

Total coincidence that all the guys talking about how trans rights are political are also liking all the transphobic posts, right? Just a cool and quirky observation.

I have political views, I have biases. MWO should be a space where neither are expressed, it is irrelevant. Start shoving your politics into my face into games and I won't ignore it, even if PGI start committing to a one-sided defense of your politics being spammed in the game, and punishing anyone who responds in a way that isn't outright positive and encouraging.

[Darkstrand]

Echidna, on 04 October 2021 - 05:37 AM, said:

Total coincidence that all the guys talking about how trans rights are political are also liking all the transphobic posts, right? Just a cool and quirky observation.

Which is why you shouldn't stir the pot, and create conflict. I happen to agree with Far Reach and KOKO MORENO, if you don't want this discussion then you agree with me in my original point.

[pattonesque]

Far Reach, on 04 October 2021 - 05:38 AM, said:

The fact you're so sure of this is downright terrifying.

It's incredibly easy to read. You're not unique or interesting in your bigotry, and you're not some brave warrior standing up against the woke hordes (who don't have any actual material power lol). You just hate trans people, dismiss their experiences as something invented by the internet, and would prefer they not exist.

You also don't want people to be mean to you about it so you pretend you care about them. Sad!

[rafamarafa]

basically the team name was changed because they dont want to get cancelled on twitter by a bunch of children who cant take a joke. If you are trangender and cant accept yourself for who you are and then yell at others to accept them for what they are not maybe look at yourself instead of demonizing everyone else most people just want to be left alone , get woke go broke

pattonesque, on 04 October 2021 - 05:43 AM, said:

It's incredibly easy to read. You're not unique or interesting in your bigotry, and you're not some brave warrior standing up against the woke hordes (who don't have any actual material power lol). You just hate trans people, dismiss their experiences as something invented by the internet, and would prefer they not exist.

You also don't want people to be mean to you about it so you pretend you care about them. Sad!

we dont hate trans people , trans people hate themselves and want to be what they arent , we mostly just want to be left alone lol

[pattonesque]

rafamarafa, on 04 October 2021 - 05:45 AM, said:

basically the team name was changed because they dont want to get cancelled on twitter by a bunch of children who cant take a joke. If you are trangender and cant accept yourself for who you are and then yell at others to accept them for what they are not maybe look at yourself instead of demonizing everyone else most people just want to be left alone , get woke go broke



we dont hate trans people , trans people hate themselves and want to be what they arent , we mostly just want to be left alone lol

you do hate trans people. you should be honest about it.

[TENTACLE BOSS]

pattonesque, on 04 October 2021 - 05:46 AM, said:

you do hate trans people. you should be honest about it.

It doesn't matter if he does or not. MWO should not be the battleground for your politics.

[rafamarafa]

pattonesque, on 04 October 2021 - 05:46 AM, said:

you do hate trans people. you should be honest about it.

pattonesque, on 04 October 2021 - 05:46 AM, said:

you do hate trans people. you should be honest about it.

lmao are you a troll just baiting people on this thread ? you are jumping so many hoops
what you are saying is the same as "if you want the government to leave you alone you must be a communist" hahaha you are living in a echo chamber so big you shoukld go back to twitter and reddit , we average people might offend you too much
we dont hate trans people stop trying to be a victim and grow up

[Echidna]

Darkstrand, on 04 October 2021 - 05:43 AM, said:

Which is why you shouldn't stir the pot, and create conflict. I happen to agree with Far Reach and KOKO MORENO, if you don't want this discussion then you agree with me in my original point.

I'm quite happy stirring the pot with people that say slurs about me and my community, and people who agree with those that say slurs about me and my community.

Trans people having rights is no more political than anyone else having rights. Everyone has rights. The most you can stretch it to be is an ethical issue - in which case, if you believe another group talking about their rights is somehow bad or wrong, you're probably a terrible person. One of us was suspended and more warned for merely talking about their rights, so we complained until change happened. Pretty simple.
Either way, I'm not intimidated by any of the transphobes in this thread, nor do I hate myself or can't accept myself, or whatever you want to project about me. I find you all very boring and predictable, really. You always use the same tired, easily disproven, cookie cutter far right talking points everywhere, and in the end you're all very invested and upset about some people you'll never meet.

[pattonesque]

rafamarafa, on 04 October 2021 - 05:52 AM, said:

lmao are you a troll just baiting people on this thread ? you are jumping so many hoops
what you are saying is the same as "if you want the government to leave you alone you must be a communist" hahaha you are living in a echo chamber so big you shoukld go back to twitter and reddit , we average people might offend you too much
we dont hate trans people stop trying to be a victim and grow up

you hate trans people so much that your first post on these forums in years of playing the game is about how much you hate them. nothing else stirred your interest so much as the opportunity to demonstrate this.

[The6thMessenger]

Far Reach, on 04 October 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:

You are the sex you were born as. You can't change your chromosomes. It is what it is.
No matter what your deluded mind has been conditioned to tell you.

Far Reach, on 04 October 2021 - 05:19 AM, said:

Any post editing was for specificity, not to be more biting.

Surgery and hormones cannot change your gender.
If the internet did not exist these fad crises wouldn't either.
I do not hate any of you.
Regardless of the fences and foils you throw up - It is indeed all in your mind.
I want you to understand that there is nothing abnormal/wrong with any of you.

I sincerely promise you that a year or two with no net, living in the sticks would cure all these maladays.
No, I guarantee it.

Well, kind of right. We as human beings are sexually dimorphic species, there are distinct differences between sexes -- including brain -- but it does happen that there are mismatch in rare instances. Kind of why they are minorities. And as to why am I back, just this one time, is that this piece needs to be said, because I can't help myself.

Identity is a lot bigger than just people's labels, trans, and other stuffs. There's just a lot of people misdirecting their idea of humanity into fixations of labels. And it's sad these days that people seem to forget to human, that their idea of humanity is through exchange of labels and pronouns, that their idea of humanity is through stereotypes -- they aren't people, they are caricatures.

Take a girl named Lydia for example, top of her class, playful with a monty-python humor, helps the poor through salvation army despite not being Christian, silly that she hi-fives stop-signs whenever she passes by them. To reduce her to just some transgirl, is a complete disrespect to her. Take away her trans-ness, that she's a cis-woman, she's still that person that achieved so much, that impacted so many lives, that chose to be awesome.

If you did being human right, then it's not going to matter what your gender is or how you identify.

Echidna, on 04 October 2021 - 05:01 AM, said:

It's kinda weird how transphobes always bring up chromosomes, that thing nobody can see and has no real bearing on any of our lives.

Anyway, what this thread has turned into is a fantastic example of why having these moderation decisions repealed was important.

Echidna, on 04 October 2021 - 05:37 AM, said:

Total coincidence that all the guys talking about how trans rights are political are also liking all the transphobic posts, right? Just a cool and quirky observation.

Well, IT IS political. It's political to set up laws, to set up human rights, to argue why laws are such and such. Politics isn't in how you identify, it's what you make people do, or when you argue for change the protocols of the society -- such as calling for trans rights.

The problem there is to whom do you give the authority to say what is and what isn't right? Because pretty sure offense is highly subjective. As horrible as these "transphobic" remarks are, you have the choice to simply just ignore them.

To others, what you are saying is offensive and they would rather censor you -- just as you want to censor them. You can argue tooth and nail and all day why the other side is wrong and deserves to be executed, but guess what, the other side can do that too. And in the end it's a matter of who the moderators agree with -- so what if he agrees with your political rival and silences you instead?

It's tricky thing really, and those that say otherwise is deluding themselves and others. We are intellectually diverse people, we are entitled to our own beliefs and biases. If they silenced one and let another thrive, they are implicitly siding with one and shoving politics to other's throats, that is why politics shouldn't be here, it just sows discord.

Wrong side of history? Well history is written by the victors, so what do you think will happen if these "transphobes" win? Are they somehow right? If not, then why is the side of history important?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 October 2021 - 06:18 AM.

[Darkstrand]

Echidna, on 04 October 2021 - 05:52 AM, said:

I'm quite happy stirring the pot with people that say slurs about me and my community, and people who agree with those that say slurs about me and my community.

Trans people having rights is no more political than anyone else having rights. Everyone has rights. The most you can stretch it to be is an ethical issue - in which case, if you believe another group talking about their rights is somehow bad or wrong, you're probably a terrible person. One of us was suspended and more warned for merely talking about their rights, so we complained until change happened. Pretty simple.
Either way, I'm not intimidated by any of the transphobes in this thread, nor do I hate myself or can't accept myself, or whatever you want to project about me. I find you all very boring and predictable, really. You always use the same tired, easily disproven, cookie cutter far right talking points everywhere, and in the end you're all very invested and upset about some people you'll never meet.

Well I wish you well.

[TENTACLE BOSS]

Echidna, on 04 October 2021 - 05:52 AM, said:

I'm quite happy stirring the pot with people that say slurs about me and my community, and people who agree with those that say slurs about me and my community. Trans people having rights is no more political than anyone else having rights. Everyone has rights.

You have the right to play the game and shut up like the rest of us, that's equality. Start inserting your politics into a match and that's provocation.

[Beet Wagon]

Of all the reasons to come back to the forums. Well, **** it.

Hi, I'm trans. This will come as a surprise to most of the members of my unit (hi goons) and anybody else who reads this who knows me, because I have been very quiet about it. Part of the reason I have been quiet about it is because I really don't feel like exposing myself to the kinds of toxicity on display here and - just for example - in the replies to the official tweet about this announcement, which if you haven't checked are chock full of jokes about trans people committing suicide and people threatening to quit playing the game because they unbanned someone for saying "trans rights" in group chat. Also I'm pretty sure none of my IRL friends read the MWO forums any more, but if they do there's at least a couple of them who I'm relatively certain will stop being my friend if they see this. These are just some of the things I have to take into consideration when I'm thinking about when and where I get to be myself.

In my country (America), 17 anti-LGBTQ laws have been signed into law this year so far (there's still time for them to run up the score), making 2021 the worst year for anti-LGBTQ legislation since 2015 (when 15 anti-LGBTQ laws were enacted). In addition to this, more than 250 of these laws have been introduced into state legislatures. These include:

Quote

- At least 35 bills that would prohibit transgender youth from being able to access best-practice, age-appropriate, gender-affirming medical care
- At least 69 bills that would prohibit transgender youth (and in some cases college students) from participating in sports consistent with their gender identity
- At least 43 bills that would allow people to assert a religious belief as justification for failing to abide by the law or provide services to people of whom they disapprove
- At least 15 bills that would prohibit transgender people from having access to restrooms or locker rooms consistent with their gender identity]

(source: Human Rights Campaign)

Of the laws that have been passed, some fun ones are:

Quote

- 7 anti-trans sports bans in Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi, Montana, and West Virginia
- 4 religious refusal bills, including in Arkansas, Montana, and South Dakota
- 2 anti-LGBTQ education bills in Tennessee and Montana
- 1 anti-trans medical care ban bill in Arkansas
- 1 sham “hate crimes” bill in Arkansas
- 1 anti-all comers bill in North Dakota
- 1 anti-trans birth certificate bill in Montana

(source: Human Rights Campaign)

And that's just the legal stuff, and just from this year. I won't bore anyone here with going into the sort of every-day "garden variety" difficulties because honestly it's all fairly mundane and depressing, and we all just want to shoot robots with other robots. And that's the thing about this, I guess. I just want to shoot robots with other robots. I took a break from MWO for a couple years and ironically was just getting back into it these past couple weeks. One of my first games back someone got in voice chat to jokingly say "Oh by the way I'm a tranny is that okay" before the match started. That sucked, but it wasn't a surprise. Believe me, I am well aware of how hostile this game's community is to myself and other people like me. It seems weird, but that kind of stuff - my personhood being treated as a joke - is the kind of low-level intolerance that I've learned to be able to tune out in pursuit of my escapism/hobbies.

The thing is, I don't need a videogame company to pander to me by doling out equality-themed skins one month a year or whatever. I can even deal with the fact that they won't take an active role in standing up for me by, for example, punishing people who use slurs. It's depressing, but I get it. In a way I can even understand the drive to just tamp down any mention of something that might lead to a thread like this one right from the start. But it's really disheartening when they start forcibly renaming teams and banning people for even mentioning trans people in a positive way, especially when that's followed up with some version of "We're actually doing this to protect you." The fact that talking about transness or trans rights might open a user up to abuse from other users is, sadly, normal. It's something every trans person is acutely aware of (and something a lot of people who aren't trans are aware of too!). But the idea that the solution to that is to bring the hammer down on the trans person - not the people who might harass them - is sad in a way that's hard to describe, and for a lot of us it took our hobby from being something that was, if not welcoming, at least not entirely unwelcoming and changed the calculus. When that kind of idea is supported on high, it leaves precious little room for a trans person to carve out a way to feel welcome here. It can, and did, immediately put a damper on someone being excited to return to MWO (or try it out for the first time, or keep playing it, etc.).

So I'm glad they reversed it, and I hope that providing clear direction to the GM and mod teams will prevent something like this from happening in the future. The developers and community team not being actively hostile to us is at least a start. Anyway I'm not writing all this under the illusion that it's going to win any hearts and minds here. Those of you who think there's some feral "woke mob" out here trying to ram something down your throat by acknowledging the existence of trans people are probably not going to be swayed by me saying "it sucks that I have to be afraid every time I use a public restroom" and I know that. But if anyone from PGI sees this, I guess what I'm saying is thanks for acknowledging your mistake. A lot of people may (rightfully, in my opinion) point out that the public apology and "we'll do better" statement is sort of the bare minimum here (as well as being something of an overused trope), but even so, the acknowledgement and reversal at least helped make MWO feel a tiny bit more welcoming, and that's not nothing.

Edited by Beet Wagon, 04 October 2021 - 08:13 AM.

[ccrider]

Jesus people, instead of bitching about team names and chromosomes and whatever other ******** you pull off some men's rights, anti-woke website, why don't you just STFU and shoot robots? You claim you want politics to be left out yet here you ******* are, shouting your political/anti-trans viewpoints into the faces of everyone. You know you can shut off all chat and unit tags aren't long enough to get a full name in, right? Your ACTIVELY going out of your way to be offended about someone else's situation. Look up what it takes to transition, all the obstacles put in the way by the government's of various states, church groups demonizing their existence and then try to figure out why people feel the need to fight for their rights. Christ, you all sound so goddam sad the way you can't accept a person's right to exist without it being a threat to your fragile viewpoint. FFS, if you gotta cry about it, there are tons of websites filled with people like you where you can circle jerk your intolerant viewpoints together without any dissent.

To the people who are supportive of anyone being able to join the community, regardless of sex, sexual orientation or anything else, good on you. 07

[Kodan Black]

This is a video game about giant robots shooting each other and none of us knows who is really behind the username piloting the mech. Just let people live their lives and play the game. I've played with trans catgirl and have never had any issues. You may not understand trans people, and that is ok, but they are just another person and them being trans won't have any impact on your life so maybe just don't get worked up over things that won't impact you at all.

[TENTACLE BOSS]

Beet Wagon, on 04 October 2021 - 06:00 AM, said:

Of all the reasons to come back to the forums. Well, **** it. Hi, I'm trans. This will come as a surprise to most of the members of my unit (hi goons) and anybody else who reads this who knows me, because I have been very quiet about it. Part of the reason I have been quiet about it is because I really don't feel like exposing myself to the kinds of toxicity on display here and - just for example - in the replies to the official tweet about this announcement, which if you haven't checked are chock full of jokes about trans people committing suicide and people threatening to quit playing the game because they unbanned someone for saying "trans rights" in group chat. Also I'm pretty sure none of my IRL friends read the MWO forums any more, but if they do there's at least a couple of them who I'm relatively certain will stop being my friend if they see this. These are just some of the things I have to take into consideration when I'm thinking about when and where I get to be myself. In my country (America), 17 anti-LGBTQ laws have been signed into law so far (there's still time for them to run up the score), making 2021 the worst year for anti-LGBTQ legislation since 2015 (when 15 anti-LGBTQ laws were enacted). In addition to this, more than 250 of these laws have been introduced into state legislatures. These include: (source: Human Rights Campaign) Of the laws that have been passed, some fun ones are: (source: Human Rights Campaign) And that's just the legal stuff, and just from this year. I won't bore anyone here with going into the sort of every-day "garden variety" difficulties because honestly it's all fairly mundane and depressing, and we all just want to shoot robots with other robots. And that's the thing about this, I guess. I just want to shoot robots with other robots. I took a break from MWO for a couple years and ironically was just getting back into it these past couple weeks. One of my first games back someone got in voice chat to jokingly say "Oh by the way I'm a tranny is that okay" before the match started. That sucked, but it wasn't a surprise. Believe me, I am well aware of how hostile this game's community is to myself and other people like me. It seems weird, but that kind of stuff - my personhood being treated as a joke - is the kind of low-level intolerance that I've learned to be able to tune out in pursuit of my escapism/hobbies. The thing is, I don't need a videogame company to pander to me by doling out equality-themed skins one month a year or whatever. I can even deal with the fact that they won't take an active role in standing up for me by, for example, punishing people who use slurs. It's depressing, but I get it. In a way I can even understand the drive to just tamp down any mention of something that might lead to a thread like this one right from the start. But it's really disheartening when they start forcibly renaming teams and banning people for even mentioning trans people in a positive way, especially when that's followed up with some version of "We're actually doing this to protect you." The fact that talking about transness or trans rights might open a user up to abuse from other users is, sadly, normal. It's something every trans person is acutely aware of (and something a lot of people who aren't trans are aware of too!). But the idea that the solution to that is to bring the hammer down on the trans person - not the people who might harass them - is sad in a way that's hard to describe, and for a lot of us it took our hobby from being something that was, if not welcoming, at least not entirely unwelcoming and changed the calculus. When that kind of idea is supported on high, it leaves precious little room for a trans person to carve out a way to feel welcome here. It can, and did, immediately put a damper on someone being excited to return to MWO (or try it out for the first time, or keep playing it, etc.). So I'm glad they reversed it, and I hope that providing clear direction to the GM and mod teams will prevent something like this from happening in the future. The developers and community team not being actively hostile to us is at least a start. Anyway I'm not writing all this under the illusion that it's going to win any hearts and minds here. Those of you who think there's some feral "woke mob" out here trying to ram something down your throat by acknowledging the existence of trans people are probably not going to be swayed by me saying "it sucks that I have to be afraid every time I use a public restroom" and I know that. But if anyone from PGI sees this, I guess what I'm saying is thanks for acknowledging your mistake. A lot of people may (rightfully, in my opinion) point out that the public apology and "we'll do better" statement is sort of the bare minimum here (as well as being something of an overused trope), but even so, the acknowledgement and reversal at least helped make MWO feel a tiny bit more welcoming, and that's not nothing.

While I think there's more nuance to the sport participation issues than simply a violation of rights, I appreciate that your head is screwed onto your shoulders.

I don't have a problem with you or your life choices, if they differ with mine or not. I would as a fellow MWO player just like the sociopolitical advocations to stay out of my matches, OR, I would like consistency from PGI. If this game is apolitical, then nobody should be using the game to promote real world sociopolitical causes that provoke a reaction That includes that guy saying trans rights, and anyone saying the opposite. (Although I don't care what anyone says in a group chat) If MWO is not apolitical, then every player should have a right to make any controversial statement from any leaning without reprisal. If one group is permitted, then equal treatment says everyone should be.

Personally, I'm happy with the former if it means MWO matches don't delve into real world themes. However, the free speech advocate in me is also happy with the latter although I think it would be disruptive. What I wouldn't be happy with is PGI permitting people to spam trans movement propaganda in any form in the chat without consequence, then punishing anyone who would do the same for an oppositional/different sociopolitical cause. I don't think consistency should be too much to ask for.

[Liveish]

+

On Behalf of the MWO Comp AdminTeam, MWO Comp is happy the team names has been restored.
MWO Comp is open to everyone from all walks in life and levels in MWO.

Anyone who in angry, upset of hurt by this, you are on the wrong side of history and why not put that hate into something more useful and shoot more mechs.

Hope to see you in comp Q for the last few weeks.

Edited by live1991, 04 October 2021 - 06:13 AM.

[Purity the Kitty]

So are we doing something about all the other rogue moderation? Like some high profile bans? "Evening ladies" anyone? "Missiles go whoosh" anyone? We KNOW this all came from one person acting emotionally.

I'm glad we at least managed to get it right on this one. There was no legitimate reason to censor the names of these teams. The existence of trans people is not political - and on top of that, other political messages in the past have not been censored on this platform. ACTIVE ELECTION CAMPAIGNING was not censored on this platform for the past two US elections. So don't gimme "no politics".

[TENTACLE BOSS]

Purity the Kitty, on 04 October 2021 - 06:17 AM, said:

So are we doing something about all the other rogue moderation? Like some high profile bans? "Evening ladies" anyone? "Missiles go whoosh" anyone? We KNOW this all came from one person acting emotionally. I'm glad we at least managed to get it right on this one. There was no legitimate reason to censor the names of these teams. The existence of trans people is not political - and on top of that, other political messages in the past have not been censored on this platform. ACTIVE ELECTION CAMPAIGNING was not censored on this platform for the past two US elections. So don't gimme "no politics".

PGI needs consistent standards. Allow anyone to advocate any political view or ban all of it. No weird weaselly in-betweens where some people have free speech and others do not based on what is in-vogue on social media to support right now.