629 replies to this topic

[Natural Predator]

MPhoenix, on 28 November 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

It's a general statement and for the most part they are fine but there's one issue that makes them utter BS in the game.
Absolute lack of consequence to the whole face hugging/strafing idiocy.

A 20 ton mech can take down a fresh 100 ton mech simple by running around it firing dinky weapons forever. Okay, it's a viable tactic for damage but to be able to destroy a fresh mech is nonsense.

It's a game, a game about fictional big stompy robots, there's no 'in real life..'.

That said there should be a risk to this tactic that is completely absent due to the lack of physics and contact damage. Simply put a 20 ton mech running at speed who gets walked in to by a 100 ton mech shouldn't just deflect and keep running. The consequence of impacting that much mass at high speed should shear parts off and destroy components.

I'm guessing there's some limits to the physics engine in the game but I know impact damage can already occur. I've had my mech damaged before the battle by team mates running in to me. An assault mech slams in to my medium mech crossing a bridge on Canyon network and my leg is yellow and I'm at 98-99%. Obviously impact damage is calculated somehow so why not apply that to damaging the enemy?

It can't be that ground breaking, way back in Tie Fighter, X-Wing vs Tie and such collisions carried damage and we could use bigger ships to ram smaller ships and survive. That was almost 40 years ago.


I'm sure there are tons of game balancing issues that need to be addressed, no matter how good or diligent a company is there always are and new ones always crop up.
But this is one that has turned in to a tactic by exploiting the lack of physics and mass.

Just to save us some time from the whole 'You're just angry it happened to you!' rabbit trail, not really. It rarely does, mostly because I've died in a loud and grotesque manner well before they get the chance.

You could have just wrote I don't have situational awareness and saved us all a lot of time reading this.

[martian]

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

I did not direct that comment to you. Others in the thread have made that assertion.

Who and where?

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

I thought it obvious, but I was referring to my belief that in a light vs assault mid-game damaged-state encounter, the light tends to win ~60-75% of the time. Please refer to my previous posts on the subject.

Trying to sell your personal opinions and beliefs, so they would appear almost as facts, again?

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

Granting a 5% boost to assault's rate-of-turn and arm-tracking as I've suggested would do very little to affect the damage done to other targets besides fast-movers. As I have said before, I believe it would simply allow the assault pilot to defend themselves ever-so-slightly better vs these kinds of threats.

It would be a straight up boost of already powerful Assault class of 'Mechs that would help Assaults against all other classes. I think that I have already said that in this very thread.

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

We are getting into repetition now and little is to be gained by further debate. Many are entrenched in their beliefs and as you can see, so am I.

That is because you ignore and skip arguments that you can not deal with.

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

Each side has only their in-game experiences to argue their point of view and we have beaten those to death. Only rehashing remains.

No, you keep posting and repeating your personal opinions and beliefs.

When I post something what you can verify for yourself, you ignore it. Just as when I posted in the post #224 actual facts, you skipped them and in your next post you repeated your beliefs again, trying to sell them as "facts" with your "It is obvious that ..."

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

So I leave people with this: This topic and general perception rears its ugly head time and again on these forums and there must be a reason.

No, your personal opinion and opinion of approximately two or three other posters in this thread is not "general perception" that is typical for this forums.

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

As I've said before, it can't be because every assault pilot is bad.

So who did say "every assault pilot is bad"?

Above you said "Others in the thread have made that assertion." and now you are saying "As I've said before, it can't be because every assault pilot is bad"

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

Perhaps there's something to it? The kind of change I am advocating for is so minor (5%?!) and so specific (it only affects assault mech class's ability to track fast-movers) that not trying it seems spiteful.

No, you are not telling the truth: Enhancing Assault 'Mech's various turn rates, pitch angle, yaw angle or arm movement would allow them to track better every 'Mech of every weight class in MWO, not just "fast-movers".

So your words "it only affects assault mech class's ability to track fast-movers" are not true.

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

Why not see if it helps? As it would basically be a 'spreadsheet change', it could easily be rolled-back if things go haywire -- and I'd be the first to advocate for that if it happens.

If you can not argument it out in theory, there would be no point in introducing it in the live game.

[Blood Rose]

As a side thing:

Could I please ask for the names of some of these Light pilots who are managing to bring down Assaults on their own, and perhaps their loadouts? I would really like to run my own Light mechs without living in utter fear that anything heavier than 40 tons is going to take note of me.

[Davegt27]

Blood Rose, on 11 December 2021 - 12:21 PM, said:

As a side thing:

Could I please ask for the names of some of these Light pilots who are managing to bring down Assaults on their own, and perhaps their loadouts? I would really like to run my own Light mechs without living in utter fear that anything heavier than 40 tons is going to take note of me.

this might help

https://www.twitch.t...arrior%20Online

[RickySpanish]

John Bronco, on 11 December 2021 - 07:23 AM, said:

Well only Cauldron and PGI have numbers by chassis, and they've chosen to massively buff lights and leave assault agility where it is.

Assault agility got buffed too, like improving pitch angles, and adjusting twist speed for the Atlas. Many Lights are OK right now, it's just a few ridiculous chassis that over perform and contribute to most of the ire from Assault pilots that need attention somehow. But that attention might not be best focussed on nerfing those chassis. It's a hard problem to solve - Piranha is very strong, and when it gets behind someone they are screwed, and it's not a fun feeling to be rendered defenseless. But if the Piranga gets breathed on before that, it will die. Some say that is balance, but as Blizzard learned with the Rogue in World of Warcraft, even if something is 'balanced' the sense of 'losing' without being able to fight back (Rogue stunlock) is the antithesis of a good time.

[Der Geisterbaer]

RickySpanish said:

Assault agility got buffed too, like improving pitch angles, and adjusting twist speed for the Atlas. Many Lights are OK right now, it's just a few ridiculous chassis that over perform and contribute to most of the ire from Assault pilots that need attention somehow. But that attention might not be best focussed on nerfing those chassis.

Just curious here: Could you name the specific few chassis and preferably also their particular variants that in your opinion actually "over perform"?

I'm asking, because the one chassis that you are mentioning here ...

RickySpanish said:

It's a hard problem to solve - Piranha is very strong, and when it gets behind someone they are screwed,

... you only classify as being "very strong" which isn't the same as "over performing". Add to that that within my personal experience it doesn't mean by default that an assault is "screwed" if one manages to get behind said assault in a PIR unless one actually manages to stay there for quite some time (typically a longer period than it takes an assault to kill one of them when they happen to end up in their front fire field).

Looking at the Lights that I'm seeing in matches (including my own Light that relatively often ends up being a PIR-1 and as such somewhat skews my perception) the entire PIR lineup isn't the most common chassis among those overall rare Lights either ... which - to me - somewhat raises the question how that can be even if I were to accept your implied stipulation that PIRs are indeed one of those few "over performing" chassis!?

RickySpanish said:

and it's not a fun feeling to be rendered defenseless.

Is it more fun to be regularly one- or two-shotted by assaults and even various heavies and even some mediums?
Because ...

RickySpanish said:

But if the Piranga gets breathed on before that, it will die.

... that doesn't sound much like "fun" either (and from personal experience I can attest to that not being "fun") and seems to happen far more often than a PIR achieving a unhindered "no fun for the victim" kill from behind.

RickySpanish said:

Some say that is balance, but as Blizzard learned with the Rogue in World of Warcraft, even if something is 'balanced' the sense of 'losing' without being able to fight back (Rogue stunlock) is the antithesis of a good time.

Although I have this feeling that this comparison is more of a false equivalency fallacy than an actual argument because no Light in MW:O can actually stun lock to begin with I wonder where exactly Blizzard actually learned anything in that particular instance because 1 vs. 1 in WoW isn't even remotely balanced to this very day either ... and while one can't completely stun lock cloth wearers and then wear them down in the lock any longer one of the Rogue PvP kits (Subtlety) still revolves around consecutive stun and disarm effects while also applying burst damage (more than was originally possible) which more than often ends up to have the exact same effect as the original stun lock.

~shrug~

[ThreeStooges]

"OH ****! It's a Jenner!" Said no assault pilot ever while casually killing it with one alpha one handed with a yawn...except...

"OH ****! IT"S A ******* PIR! SAVE MY ***!" Nearly every assault pilot before coming to the forum to make a light mech op thread.

The other lights: God dam pir! I hate these dam nerf hammers.
The pir: HA HA I AM GOD!

[pattonesque]

PIRs are way more easily killed than JR7s too

[RickySpanish]

Der Geisterbaer, on 11 December 2021 - 02:46 PM, said:

Just curious here: Could you name the specific few chassis and preferably also their particular variants that in your opinion actually "over perform"?

I'm asking, because the one chassis that you are mentioning here ...



... you only classify as being "very strong" which isn't the same as "over performing". Add to that that within my personal experience it doesn't mean by default that an assault is "screwed" if one manages to get behind said assault in a PIR unless one actually manages to stay there for quite some time (typically a longer period than it takes an assault to kill one of them when they happen to end up in their front fire field).

Looking at the Lights that I'm seeing in matches (including my own Light that relatively often ends up being a PIR-1 and as such somewhat skews my perception) the entire PIR lineup isn't the most common chassis among those overall rare Lights either ... which - to me - somewhat raises the question how that can be even if I were to accept your implied stipulation that PIRs are indeed one of those few "over performing" chassis!?


Is it more fun to be regularly one- or two-shotted by assaults and even various heavies and even some mediums?
Because ...



... that doesn't sound much like "fun" either (and from personal experience I can attest to that not being "fun") and seems to happen far more often than a PIR achieving a unhindered "no fun for the victim" kill from behind.



Although I have this feeling that this comparison is more of a false equivalency fallacy than an actual argument because no Light in MW:O can actually stun lock to begin with I wonder where exactly Blizzard actually learned anything in that particular instance because 1 vs. 1 in WoW isn't even remotely balanced to this very day either ... and while one can't completely stun lock cloth wearers and then wear them down in the lock any longer one of the Rogue PvP kits (Subtlety) still revolves around consecutive stun and disarm effects while also applying burst damage (more than was originally possible) which more than often ends up to have the exact same effect as the original stun lock.

~shrug~

Piranha w/ machineguns or micros, spl firestarter, machinegun/hsl myst linx, spl Flea at lower tiers. "very good" in this case means over performing. Blizzard specifically stated the issue with Rogue and other high burst classes wasn't high burst alone, it was the not being able to respond while it was being done to you, hence my comparison.

[Brauer]

TBF the PIR is made of wet tissue paper and can be one-shot by basically anything in the game.

SPL FS9 is bigger (easier to hit) and also has to get really close to do anything.

MLX is getting a slight nerf to its durability.

SPL FLE see FS9 except it's the hardest mech to hit when played well and in exchange doesn't have the firepower of the FS9.

[1453 R]

RickySpanish, on 11 December 2021 - 01:01 PM, said:

...
Some say that is balance, but as Blizzard learned with the Rogue in World of Warcraft, even if something is 'balanced' the sense of 'losing' without being able to fight back (Rogue stunlock) is the antithesis of a good time.

So when are assault 'Mechs losing their firepower?

Everyone keeps claiming assault 'Mechs need enormous buffs to turn and arm speeds, and that lights need brutal nerfing because a very few light 'Mechs specifically built for the job in the hands of much better than average pilots can sometimes deal with assault 'Mechs.

But if you're right, and the inability to fight back makes something overpowered?

When is my light 'Mech going to be able to show its face in front of an assault 'Mech and not get instasploded for its trouble?

I note that not one single assault 'mech driver in the history of literally ever has stated it's not fair that they can destroy a light 'Mech with one single tap of the trigger, or harvest arms, legs or shoulders from anything under seventy tons with that same tap. They all yell 'well of COURSE, that's why I play assaults, I wanna have real, awesome, amazing firepower!"...but the moment those players fall prey to the cost for that firepower, it's infinite forum whining that something else in the game might actually defeat them.

Because:

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

...
So I leave people with this: This topic and general perception rears its ugly head time and again on these forums and there must be a reason. As I've said before, it can't be because every assault pilot is bad. Perhaps there's something to it? The kind of change I am advocating for is so minor (5%?!) and so specific (it only affects assault mech class's ability to track fast-movers) that not trying it seems spiteful. Why not see if it helps? As it would basically be a 'spreadsheet change', it could easily be rolled-back if things go haywire -- and I'd be the first to advocate for that if it happens.

Anyway, take care and Happy Holidays.

The "reason" is because many assault 'Mech pilots - most especially poorer ones - believe that their ability to purchase and drive the largest, most heavily armed and armored 'Mechs in MWO entitles them to outperform everyone who is in a smaller 'Mech. Your own posts have frequently cited the fact that light 'Mechs win "too much" against assault 'Mechs and that assault 'Mechs should thusly get significant boosts to turn and arm speed to allow them to easily target and eliminate light 'Mechs. Why?

Because it's not fair that a thirty-ton 'Mech with six tons of weaponry and two hundred points of armor can spend three minutes having to play an absolutely perfect game of keepaway to claw through the 600+ points of armor on most modern assault 'mechs, losing either half their 'Mech or their whole 'Mech if they screw up even once. Meanwhile the assault 'mech player can **** up by the numbers for three solid uninterrupted minutes before that light 'Mech wins that fight.

Medium 'Mechs don't get to duel assault 'Mechs toe-to-toe and win. heavy 'Mechs don't get to duel assault 'mechs toe-to-toe and win. People say "well light 'mechs have superior positioning!" No, no they do f***ing not. Light 'Mechs have quicker positioning, but an assault 'mech can take superior ground away from light 'Mechs just by existing on that ground. Light 'Mechs cannot take and hold space, they cannot hold their ground, and their advantage of positioning is a filthy myth.

People will say "light 'Mechs can attack from the rear!" Sure they can. You ever tried staying in somebody's rear? Even against the biggest chunguses in MWO, it is not at all easy, and an assault 'Mech driver with a brain rarely exposes it in the first place. Plus, Big Chungus' rear arc is someone else's firing arc if anybody is covering their fatbro.

People say "well light 'Mechs can run away and wait for the enemy to be weakened!" Cool - who's gonna do the weakening? What if nobody ever does? Why should light 'Mechs not be allowed to start fights as well as finish them?

All of these arguments, 'proposals', and hissyfits generally assume that it's perfectly okay for assault 'Mechs to be the game's dominant force, and that "only another assault 'mech can beat an assault 'Mech". If you don't have superior numbers the assault 'mech is just supposed to win by default, and that just leads to twelve assault 'Mechs versus twelve other assault 'Mechs.

Does anybody want to play that game? Because I sure as hell don't.

[RickySpanish]

As if anyone in T4 can shoot straight enough to gib a Light 'Mech. That is assuming they even have complimentary weapon systems. Sorry low blow, but I didn't want to light your carefully constructed field of strawmen on fire with a useful reply.

[Der Geisterbaer]

RickySpanish said:

Piranha w/ machineguns or micros,

Okay, so the PIRs 1 to 3 make it onto your list of bogeymen after you conveniently decided to redefine your language as "over perform" = "very strong" = "very good". Understood ... just as I understood that you conveniently ignored large parts of what you quoted me on ~shrug again~

And then you add ...

RickySpanish said:

spl firestarter, machinegun/hsl myst linx, spl Flea at lower tiers.

.. three more mechs of which at least I personally only see one actually on a more regular basis on my own or the opposing teams.

RickySpanish said:

"very good" in this case means over performing.

Just as "very strong" seemingly means the same to you. Sorry but such arbitrary usage of language in a topic that is mainly driven by subjective stances makes it even less worthwhile having the conversation.

RickySpanish said:

Blizzard specifically stated the issue with Rogue and other high burst classes wasn't high burst alone, it was the not being able to respond while it was being done to you, hence my comparison.

And it remains a fact that

• Blizzard didn't actually change Rogues in their "stun lock" mechanics
  
• Now you're actually renegotiating your own premise because now it's supposedly "high burst" which wasn't part of the original / vanilla / classic Rogue stun locking to begin with but came as the result of them actually limiting the almost certain stun lock chain and replaced it with smaller lock windows of opportunity and diminishing returns and subsequently added higher bursts that have to be used within said windows of opportunity.
  
• The "inability to respond" part of your comparision is still flawed because on the one hand Lights in MW:O - even the ones you like to consider "over performing" (or whatever label you use at the time) - still cannot create an actual "stun lock" situation and on the other hand still can more easily die a quick to instant death (that also leaves their player "unable to respond") within a time period that is actually way shorter than what it takes them to actually do what you consider to be "unfun" for the affected "assault" player.

Regardless, thanks for at least trying to provide an answer to the main question I asked. I'll have to agree to disagree with you on the correctness of your opinion because of various flaws in your lines of argumentation and thus am not convinced that what you describe can be considered to be the "larger truth" of this highly subjective matter.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 12 December 2021 - 01:34 AM.

[Michael Abt]

Since numbers and facts are discarded as opinions, I might just as well chip in my own anecdote. It happened 2-3 months ago.


Rubellite Oasis, midgame, me piloting my Jenner Oxide
From top of the side with the metal beams, D5 corner, enemy fire was coming. I ran there in order to check out the situation, and found myself an assault mech. I got behind him and started working on his rear.

Spoiler

Personal assessment: no seismic, no UAV, no friends = inexperienced pilot

When he started turning around, i also turned and ran away around the pillar.

*snipped part, see quiz below*

When I was in his rear again I finished him off.

In chat that player started to rage something like 'another light warping through and behind him'. My reply was that that is not what happened. Unfortunately he already had formed his opinion and continued to rant about my 'motel WLAN connection' before he rage quit.


Here is my little quiz question: What happened? Was the assault pilot right, or maybe something else happened?

Spoiler

Once I was out of LOS I hit the breaks, made a full stop, turned 180 degrees on the spot, and ran my way back around. His expectation was that I complete the full circle around the pillar and therefore turned into that direction, presenting me his open back.

My opinion:
Pretty much every assault mech (except LRM boats) is able to cripple if not outright oneshot the majority of light mechs with just one alpha. In a light mech you have to count on exploitable mistakes of the assault pilots, and that is still no garantee to win the encounter. In conclusion, if you pilot an assault and die to a light in a 1vs1 you deserved to die because it was you who made mistakes, and all you needed was still one lucky hit.


Final thought: Wasn't minimum range removed from some weapons in a patch like half a year ago? That wasn't a buff to those weapons, that was a nerf to every brawler, therefore to almost every light.

[Brauer]

RickySpanish, on 11 December 2021 - 10:36 PM, said:

As if anyone in T4 can shoot straight enough to gib a Light 'Mech. That is assuming they even have complimentary weapon systems. Sorry low blow, but I didn't want to light your carefully constructed field of strawmen on fire with a useful reply.

Any time I have been in T4/5 the lights do very little work. They run in straight lines right at their opponents and do minimal damage.

[martian]

MechaGnome, on 11 December 2021 - 03:41 AM, said:

That sound great in theory but when a good chunk of teams take off and leave you to die..... I'm just saying its not always the slow ponderous mechs fault.. 48.6kph even 52kph you get left behind.

Just some personal advices:

1. Do not sleep at start.

2. The only speed, that Assaults should use, is the full speed.

3. Learn the map.

4. Anticipate your team's route and the enemy team's route.

5. Use larger engine (or if the engine is hard-wired, use a different OmniMech).

[Blood Rose]

RickySpanish, on 11 December 2021 - 10:36 PM, said:

As if anyone in T4 can shoot straight enough to gib a Light 'Mech. That is assuming they even have complimentary weapon systems. Sorry low blow, but I didn't want to light your carefully constructed field of strawmen on fire with a useful reply.

And here we see the Assault pilot in his natural habitat
Whining about "muh OP Lights"

[Hunka Junk]

The hidden truth of the matter is that lights, especially the 20-tonners, take balls of steel to pilot well.

This means many low to middling players give up on playing them.

Therefore, when you get rekt by a light, it's very likely piloted by someone with skill because you can't hide behind armor as a 20-ton light and you definitely can't sit in the back with your LRM button.

[Curccu]

Blood Rose, on 11 December 2021 - 12:21 PM, said:

As a side thing:

Could I please ask for the names of some of these Light pilots who are managing to bring down Assaults on their own, and perhaps their loadouts? I would really like to run my own Light mechs without living in utter fear that anything heavier than 40 tons is going to take note of me.

Me? ofc depends very much of my build and that assault mechs build? and ofc how good that assault pilot is, if that pilot is some 99% rated assaults only pilot with PPFLD build in fresh mech, I would say that my chances are from very slim to none within short range... If I have mid- long range light vs almost any kind of assault mech and enough space & time to do the magic, I'd say I have pretty decent change to take out anyone.

and like pretty much everyone can take lurm boat down with pretty much every light mech in the game

Some builds I have favored lately:
um-r80 . um-r63s , fle-17 , adr-b , pir-2 , wlf-1 , inc-4 and some 5xMPL K9, MG MLX, LPPC & SL Wolfhound (too busy to clickety click builds for those now)

Edited by Curccu, 12 December 2021 - 11:39 AM.

[Blood Rose]

Curccu, on 12 December 2021 - 11:38 AM, said:

Me? ofc depends very much of my build and that assault mechs build? and ofc how good that assault pilot is, if that pilot is some 99% rated assaults only pilot with PPFLD build in fresh mech, I would say that my chances are from very slim to none within short range... If I have mid- long range light vs almost any kind of assault mech and enough space & time to do the magic, I'd say I have pretty decent change to take out anyone.

and like pretty much everyone can take lurm boat down with pretty much every light mech in the game

Some builds I have favored lately:
um-r80 . um-r63s , fle-17 , adr-b , pir-2 , wlf-1 , inc-4 and some 5xMPL K9, MG MLX, LPPC & SL Wolfhound (too busy to clickety click builds for those now)

Nice loadouts, thanks for sharing them. I might have to copy some.