71 replies to this topic

[Hobbles v]

Flyby215, on 26 December 2021 - 10:18 AM, said:

Just personal experience; AMS usefulness is very occasional.

I've been playing the Kit Fox for the past 5-6 months because I'm enjoying the much more relaxed playstyle of a support mech. T1 matches usually end with fewer than 100 missiles shot down, but on occasion the triple LAMS is able to hamper a LRM boat, or perhaps more prominently, an ATM boat. You're right, it seems to do virtually nothing vs Streaks, SRMs, or MRMs.

So is it worth spending tonnage on something that's usefulness is only occasional? Probably not to a min-maxer, or anyone who wants to play competitively. Do you get a feeling of satisfaction protecting teammates from some of the incoming missiles when/if the enemy has LRMs/ATMs? I do...

There is something very soothing to me about the gentle hum of an active AMS in the heat of battle. Of course, I'm the kind of player who generally prefers utility and healer classes in other games; so my opinions will be biased.

The other part about ams effectiveness as you go up in tiers is that most of the missiles they shoot, dont even need to be shot, as the recipients are usually able to find cover or break locks, ams is just protecting the dirt half the time.

[panzer1b]

The number 1 issue with AMS is that as skill levels increase, missiles in general with the rare exception of SRM/MRM tends to drop to minimal amounts, and AMS isnt useful against builds that ideally are shooting you from sub 150m ranges.

LERMs are just that, really really situational. I wont go all out and say useless since a coordinated group with NARC+LERM can and will be effective on the right map, however even coordinated LERMing is extremely dependent on map choice, something that noone has true control over in QP, and last i checked, FP is so unpopular that barely anyone plays that mode (at least at the times that i happen to be online).

The reasons for LERMs sucking are as follows:
Long time to hit due to the combination of lockon time which isnt instant even when in LOS and travel time of the missiles.
Damage spreads everywhere and can even miss over 50% of the damage if the target is small like a light mech or moves sideways to the missiles to evade at least some of them).
Loosing lock = no damage.
ECM, stealth are soft counters to LERMs which lacking tag or a PPC to disable it can make the target impossible to lock.
Dumbfire while nice on paper when you cant lock almost always results in 0 damage if the target is even able to move.

The only selling point of the LERMs was for a long time indirect fire (that was their unique niche, indirect DPS), but that was nerfed a while ago and ever since there is now 0 justification for using the things since if you are gonna bother to direct fire with LERMs, you will be outtraded by virtually any other type of weapon provided they are in range to deal their damage (and if you catch a brawler in the open at 700m then they made a terrible mistake and deserve to be kaputed to death).

That said, there are a few tips i can share for those that really want to AMS. First of all, dont view it as a shield for yourself, but a team damage reduction weapon. The best spot for AMS is actually in between your team and the LERMers, which can be tricky to pull off especially in something like the corsair with its famed quad AMS. Ive had decent results in a cutefox owever since its small, fast, and mounting the AMS isnt that punishing since your damage potential AMS or no AMS is already rather low since its only 30t, and unlike the corsair, you arent wasting an assault to bring a useful amount of AMS (and something like 5-6 ERMLs to steal kills with err actually contribute). The only reason id bring an assault to the game is to deal damage and soak some with its armor. Not saying you shouldnt bring th quad AMS on a corsair (its one of that mech's unique qualities), but in general you should look at what it can carry offensively as the first consideration.

Finally, while it may feel like the right thing to bring from a teamplay perspective, in most cases investing that extra tonnage into more DHS or some lasers is more team helpful. Killing someone because you have the alpha and cooling to do so a bit earlier is better then even completely shutting down a LERM boat temporarily as any smart player with missiles is just going to reposition or pick something elese to shoot at that doesnt have AMS coverage and noone can cover the entire team in QP as they will not be clupled up to such a degree. Id much rather remove an enemy from the battlefield then remove a few missiles which are going to be rather ineffective in general aga8nst anything but some very large assaults (say king crab with it's signature LERM catching top).

[PocketYoda]

Tarl Cabot, on 26 December 2021 - 07:39 AM, said:

(chuckles) Up to a point, especially if you are the only one carrying AMS.

OP at the end of the match, Hit Print Screen, especially on your personal scorecard after scrolling down the medium enough to see how many missiles were shot down. During this time lots of matches makes both sides feel like they are the Spartans at Battle of Thermopylae, fighting in the shade. If you have previous screenshots prior to the event, you can compare.

Question to ask though, are you running out of AMS ammo, or close to running out compared prior to the event?

80% of mechs can only carry one.. some can't carry any.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 26 December 2021 - 09:15 PM, said:

80% of mechs can only carry one.. some can't carry any.

Every 'Mech in MWO can carry at least one AMS - either they have hardpoint, or in case of some OmniMechs they can be equipped with OmniPod that has AMS hardpoint.

Some 'Mechs in MWO can carry two, three or four AMS.

The only exception, that I know about, is the Hero Cicada which can not be equipped with AMS.

If you feel that I am spreading misinformation, feel free to correct me.

[GoodTry]

There is actually at least one mech, the Cicada X5, that can't carry AMS.

[martian]

GoodTry, on 27 December 2021 - 06:50 AM, said:

There is actually at least one mech, the Cicada X5, that can't carry AMS.

Yeah, mentioned it in my post.

[Pariah Devalis]

Honestly, if everyone sacrificed a little for an AMS, so that the entire team had at least 1 AMS per mech, the effectiveness of missiles would drop tremendously. One mech with two to three AMS in the right place can all but completely invalidate a mech which is armed entirely with ATM. That said, since missiles can be heavily mitigated via terrain or ECM, a ton of people would rather take more heat sinks, armor, or an extra medium laser instead.

In most cases, I don't take an AMS, but it isn't a large personal sacrifice if one does take it, and it does effectively increase your end of match score, as well as provides a little team support.

[PocketYoda]

martian, on 26 December 2021 - 10:09 PM, said:

Every 'Mech in MWO can carry at least one AMS - either they have hardpoint, or in case of some OmniMechs they can be equipped with OmniPod that has AMS hardpoint.

Some 'Mechs in MWO can carry two, three or four AMS.

The only exception, that I know about, is the Hero Cicada which can not be equipped with AMS.

If you feel that I am spreading misinformation, feel free to correct me.

The new Loyalty urbie has no AMS.

Edit they must have added it because it had none when i first received it..

Many clan mechs have no AMS and lose it if you want a working build..

Edited by Nomad Tech, 28 December 2021 - 06:19 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 06:03 PM, said:

Many clan mechs have no AMS and lose it if you want a working build..

Not accurate. Check MechDB. EVERY clan mech has an option with AMS on it, as does every variant of every non-omni clan mech. if you choose not to use AMS, that's your decision. Yes, AMS might be the sub-optimal torso or arm pick for your omnimech, but it IS an option.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 28 December 2021 - 06:29 PM.

[knight-of-ni]

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 06:03 PM, said:

The new Loyalty urbie has no AMS.

Edit they must have added it because it had none when i first received it..

Many clan mechs have no AMS and lose it if you want a working build..

Yeah, I think the AMS was missing initially on the UM-R80, but then they quickly added it after realizing that was a mistake.
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6437898

It is definitely stated as having AMS in the loyalty rewards announcement.
https://mwomercs.com...ts-and-pattern/

[KaptinOrk]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 December 2021 - 07:23 AM, said:

Honestly, if everyone sacrificed a little for an AMS, so that the entire team had at least 1 AMS per mech, the effectiveness of missiles would drop tremendously. One mech with two to three AMS in the right place can all but completely invalidate a mech which is armed entirely with ATM. That said, since missiles can be heavily mitigated via terrain or ECM, a ton of people would rather take more heat sinks, armor, or an extra medium laser instead.

In most cases, I don't take an AMS, but it isn't a large personal sacrifice if one does take it, and it does effectively increase your end of match score, as well as provides a little team support.

I try to work AMS into builds if I can, it's low priority, but it is there. I especially prefer one on brawlers so they can do something in the peeky-pokey stage of the game.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 06:03 PM, said:

Many clan mechs have no AMS and lose it if you want a working build..

No, do not move goalposts.


Originally you said:

Nomad Tech, on 26 December 2021 - 09:15 PM, said:

80% of mechs can only carry one.. some can't carry any.

Just list the remaining 'Mechs that can not carry AMS according to you.

[Sjorpha]

AMS in quickplay has a bit of prisoners dilemma about it I think.

Yes if the team has enough it's effective against enemy missiles. No it's not worth putting on your mechs in quickplay because you might not face any missiles or be the only one bringing it.

I only find AMS worth bringing in Faction play on missile heavy maps where you know you'll get the value, in all other cases it's just not worth the risk of it being wasted tonnage.

It's possible that tier 4 and 5 has enough missiles for AMS to be worth it, I don't know.

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 December 2021 - 06:38 PM.

[w0qj]

Just had a T4 QP game ystd in my Annihilator ANH-1E with 2x AMS and 3tons of AMS ammo (9,000 rounds).
(Since I had extra spare tonnage, and could not cram anymore DHS into my mech).

Used up almost all of my AMS ammo, as there was a Mad Dog and another mech with lots of LRM in Mining Collective map. Positioned my mech in the optimal spot to intercept of of these LRM, to protect the main group in our Team.

We won; imagine how much armor those AMS have saved on our Team

(Admittedly it was an unusually large amount of LRM; have not seen so many LRM since the old/Classic Polar Highlands).

Edited by w0qj, 29 December 2021 - 08:01 PM.

[w0qj]

I wants my Clan OmniMech Set-of-7 so that my OmniMech can have AMS option, without losing the Set Bonus!

Nomad Tech, on 26 December 2021 - 09:15 PM, said:

Many clan mechs have no AMS and lose it if you want a working build..

ScrapIron Prime, on 28 December 2021 - 06:28 PM, said:

Not accurate. Check MechDB. EVERY clan mech has an option with AMS on it, as does every variant of every non-omni clan mech. if you choose not to use AMS, that's your decision. Yes, AMS might be the sub-optimal torso or arm pick for your omnimech, but it IS an option.

[martian]

Sjorpha, on 29 December 2021 - 06:36 PM, said:

AMS in quickplay has a bit of prisoners dilemma about it I think.

Yes if the team has enough it's effective against enemy missiles. No it's not worth putting on your mechs in quickplay because you might not face any missiles or be the only one bringing it.

I only find AMS worth bringing in Faction play on missile heavy maps where you know you'll get the value, in all other cases it's just not worth the risk of it being wasted tonnage.

It's possible that tier 4 and 5 has enough missiles for AMS to be worth it, I don't know.

Sometimes AMS can be used as "filler", if I have a 'Mech build with two empty slots - sometimes even in different locations - that can not be used any other reasonable way (since the 'Mech already has full armor, I do not want or can not use larger or smaller engine and those locations have no suitable hardpoints, etc.). So sometimes I just put AMS in one slot, ammo in the other slot and I am done with it.

[Brom96]

Personal experience - quad AMS Corsair 7A negates my 3x9ATM Vapor Eagle. It is simple as that. As for LRMs, if I was able to do around 400 - 450 average damage with 2xLRM20 in tier 1 game, now I can average about 250.

So, make your own math with it.

The problems I see with AMS are:

1. They shoot through rocks and buildings.

2. There is too much of them.

Edited by Brom96, 30 December 2021 - 01:45 AM.

[Saved By The Bell]

"They shoot through rocks and buildings."

Really?

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 30 December 2021 - 01:51 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Saved By The Bell, on 30 December 2021 - 01:51 AM, said:

"They shoot through rocks and buildings."

Really?

Yep. An AMS boat taking tunnel on Crimson can get some serious match score padding (and infuriate the red team missile boats up above). Same thing with the basement on HPG. AMS shoot through any undercover element of any map as far as I can tell.

[PocketYoda]

ScrapIron Prime, on 28 December 2021 - 06:28 PM, said:

Not accurate. Check MechDB. EVERY clan mech has an option with AMS on it, as does every variant of every non-omni clan mech. if you choose not to use AMS, that's your decision. Yes, AMS might be the sub-optimal torso or arm pick for your omnimech, but it IS an option.

"option" at a loss of quirks and some mechs lose viability.