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Groups Should Not Be Allowed In Qp


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#61 Eatit

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:08 PM

View Post1453 R, on 04 January 2022 - 11:40 AM, said:

Yes. So many things, indeed.



And as Biggz said, that had nothing to do with any sort of inherent bias, the way you keep insinuating, but rather was a result of declining player population. Note: the Solaris queue also died, and Solaris was very nearly strictly one-on-one, solo duels only.



If you don't know the facts, then stop presuming facts where you openly admit you have none and insinuating that group queue died because groups are bad. They merged the queues because of declining player population. They said so themselves, and literally everybody who knows anything about how online games works believes them. Anything else is just bad-faith rumormongering intended to push an agenda and we all know it, so stop it.



Maybe - just maybe - there shouldn't be a divide between "Solos" and "groups", but instead simply a pool of MechWarrior Online players? Some of whom drop solo, some of whom drop in groups, and some of whom do both depending on the preferences of the evening? it's not my queue, your queue, Biggz' queue, or anybody else's queue. It's "The MWO Quick Play Queue", and you use it when you want to drop into a MWO Quick Play match. Stop trying to claim possession of something that was never yours to begin with.



See the little green shame symbol under my name? I'm in T4. My friends, as a general rule, are in T3, with one of them bouncing between T3 and T2 depending on how memey his 'Mech builds get. Just this last weekend we played a match in HPG against D A T A and two other members of the 1st Jaguar Guards, i.e. the MWO 2020 and 2021 championship competitive team. We got shat on like the toilet at a cheap Mexican restaurant, because Tier 0 Ultracomps matching up against a T4 harlot in a suboptimal Scorch build doesn't end well for the harlot.

Would you rather D A T A and his friends/team simply not be allowed to play? They deserve quick play matches too, and somebody's gotta drop on the red side whenever they queue up.

Declining. Player. Populations. MWO is below the threshold required for extremely tight skill balancing, and this game is extremely difficult to "skill balance" given how many X-factors there are in it and how widely player output can vary. Almost no other competitive game will allow you to cripple yourself as thoroughly as MWO will through improper 'Mechbay usage. How many times have you seen a 'Mech build and asked yourself "what the actual f@#$, dude?" Do you think that has no bearing on match experience? Do you think people exist at one, single skill level, perpetually, with no variance?



Your entire position reeks of entitlement and the idea that you believe the game owes you something other than eleven teammates and twelve opponents whenever you click the "PLAY" button. You know what I've never seen? Pbiggz coming on the forums here to kvetch and ***** and complain whenever he inevitably gets blown up by a random JGx drop during slow days where the queues are low. Because he, like everyone else who knows how this stuff works, simply shrugs it off and queues up again.

Stop taking your losses personally. Stop blaming the game for them. Victory comes, victory goes - either accept the winds of fate and take solace in your wins when you get them, or start building a competitive team if you truly hate losing and want to try and learn to win as often as possible.



Oh, cry me a river, Sobbs McGee. You were not, and never have been, "soft banned". You have always been just as able to play MWO as ever, you can always click the "PLAY" button the same as anybody else. You're just not willing to click "PLAY" unless the game promises to hand you an unbroken string of free wins to pad out your ego with, and frankly not a single solitary soul in MWO is obligated to make you feel better about yourself. You want to win more? Git Gudder.

Player populations are higher than they've been in the last three years and have been trending upwards for the last several months despite Soup Queue. You have no evidence. You barely have an argument.



Biggz? Do you happen to have any of the Cauldron's screengrabs/slides on player counts over the last few years? He did ask for math, after all, and I don't know off the top of my head where that information is kept.


Hello 1453 R, welcome to the conversation.

I see here that you also like to make up for low quality with high quantity.

Please feel free to provide the why that changes the facts that you are disagreeing with.

All group ques died. Where is the why that makes this not a fact?
The only solo que lived. Where is the why that makes this not a fact?

D A T A can play in solo que there is nothing stopping them. Suggesting that if there is no group que that he can't play is a lie.

I haven't had losses that I take personally, like I said I don't play. When I did play winning wasn't that important to me. I think you are confusing me for someone that complained before. The fact that you didn't read my post and jumped to conclusions speaks volumes to the quality of your argument.

Please explain how me wanting solo que to stay solo is more entitled than you wanting it to change into what you want.

Me saying I was soft banned because you got what you want makes me a cry baby. PBiggz saying group players are soft banned because they wouldn't get what they want is Heroic? Resorting to name calling is proof of your lack of a valid argument. Please Stop It.

I'm way better than you so saying I need to "Git Gudder" is rediculous.

I'm hoping you have a better argument to change my mind. I'm currently firmly entrenched in the idea that I prefer solo over group.

#62 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:10 PM

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

Fact: All group ques died
Fact: The only solo que lived


For those of us that were AWOL when this happened, how long was the delay between no group queues and adding groups to the solo queue?

#63 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:17 PM

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 12:08 PM, said:

Please explain how me wanting solo que to stay solo is more entitled than you wanting it to change into what you want.


Just the simple observation that eliminating the ability to play with friends would be bad for population. And if you lower the population even further, you'll see more mixing of the player Tiers which might lower the population even further.

Personally, i don't see small groups mixed in the solo queue as a detrimental thing. Sometimes they make life easier for you, sometimes they make life harder, but most of the time people just blame them for everything that went wrong, even if that thing was "I peeked over the ridge one too many times and got wasted."

#64 Eatit

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:28 PM

Hello ScrapIron Prime welcome to the conversation.

The group que existed up to the merge, the FP que still exists. How long were they dead for before the merge, I can't answer.

I didn't support the merge then and I don't now. There is no longer a place for solo players to play without groups. It's too bad, this used to be a fun game to me but not anymore.

#65 pbiggz

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:29 PM

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 12:08 PM, said:


Hello 1453 R, welcome to the conversation.

I see here that you also like to make up for low quality with high quantity.

Please feel free to provide the why that changes the facts that you are disagreeing with.

All group ques died. Where is the why that makes this not a fact?
The only solo que lived. Where is the why that makes this not a fact?

D A T A can play in solo que there is nothing stopping them. Suggesting that if there is no group que that he can't play is a lie.

I haven't had losses that I take personally, like I said I don't play. When I did play winning wasn't that important to me. I think you are confusing me for someone that complained before. The fact that you didn't read my post and jumped to conclusions speaks volumes to the quality of your argument.

Please explain how me wanting solo que to stay solo is more entitled than you wanting it to change into what you want.

Me saying I was soft banned because you got what you want makes me a cry baby. PBiggz saying group players are soft banned because they wouldn't get what they want is Heroic? Resorting to name calling is proof of your lack of a valid argument. Please Stop It.

I'm way better than you so saying I need to "Git Gudder" is rediculous.

I'm hoping you have a better argument to change my mind. I'm currently firmly entrenched in the idea that I prefer solo over group.


You deliberately choosing to misinterpret or dismiss facts that have been presented to you as such doesn't make your argument any less shaky, nor does it make ours any less solid.

We're not agreeing to disagree. You're burying your head in the sand because you don't like what the reality looks like, and you're getting called on it.

#66 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:32 PM

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 12:28 PM, said:

I didn't support the merge then and I don't now. There is no longer a place for solo players to play without groups. It's too bad, this used to be a fun game to me but not anymore.


Okay, Devil's advocate question then. What is negative for you about playing the game in the face of small groups that never happened before the queues merged? Toxicity? Win/Loss rate? Something else?

#67 pattonesque

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:33 PM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 04 January 2022 - 12:32 PM, said:

Okay, Devil's advocate question then. What is negative for you about playing the game in the face of small groups that never happened before the queues merged? Toxicity? Win/Loss rate? Something else?


"someone shot my robot and I'm sad"

#68 Castigatus

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:41 PM

Have to agree with Pbiggz here Eatit, you're deliberately ignoring people showing why you are wrong or why they disagree with your assumptions in favour of repeatedly declaring 'oh I like to solo over playing in groups, therefore, groups should disappear'.

And on that subject guess what, I prefer groups over solo, so does that mean I get to say 'Solos can get ****** because I don't like them' and expect to be taken seriously?

Of course not.

#69 Eatit

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:51 PM

View PostCastigatus, on 04 January 2022 - 12:41 PM, said:

Have to agree with Pbiggz here Eatit, you're deliberately ignoring people showing why you are wrong or why they disagree with your assumptions in favour of repeatedly declaring 'oh I like to solo over playing in groups, therefore, groups should disappear'.

And on that subject guess what, I prefer groups over solo, so does that mean I get to say 'Solos can get ****** because I don't like them' and expect to be taken seriously?

Of course not.


You don't need to say that solos should get ******... they already got *******.

For the last time for the cheap seats.

I NEVER SAID GROUPS SHOULDN'T HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY. I SAID SOLO'S SHOULD HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY!

IT IS ALL OF YOU THAT ARE SAYING SOLO'S SHOULDN'T HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY AND ONLY GROUPS MATTER.

Sorry Castigatus I didn't welcome you to the conversation and I'm taking my frustrations with these entitled ******* out on you.

Please forgive my crassness.

#70 LordBraxton

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:53 PM

Even MOBAs allow groups in the casual queue.

Multiplayer games are made to be played with friends.

Sorry you don't have friends.

Edited by LordBraxton, 04 January 2022 - 12:53 PM.


#71 pbiggz

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 12:55 PM

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:

I NEVER SAID GROUPS SHOULDN'T HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY. I SAID SOLO'S SHOULD HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY!


which implies that groups stop you from doing that, which is false.

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:

IT IS ALL OF YOU THAT ARE SAYING SOLO'S SHOULDN'T HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY AND ONLY GROUPS MATTER.


this doesn't follow. solos can already play. we aren't demanding they be removed.

#72 Eatit

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 01:15 PM

View Postpbiggz, on 04 January 2022 - 12:55 PM, said:


which implies that groups stop you from doing that, which is false.



this doesn't follow. solos can already play. we aren't demanding they be removed.



Do you read what you write?

You say that not allowing groups in solo que is keeping them from playing. You say that not having a solo only que is not keeping solos from playing. Do you know the meaning of double standard?

You don't have to demand that solos be removed they were already removed. Besides the fact that FP still exists for group play, group players can play in the solo que. Nothing I have said is trying keep groups from playing. I'm advocating that solo que be kept solo just way too late. It was already changed. There is nothing that can be done about it now.

Visiting these forums is like visiting your lifelong friend dying of cancer. You see them and you want to help them but you can't. The life support machines beeping along. The tubes and bailing wire keeping them alive but just barely.

MWO is on life support, it's going to die! SOOOOOO SAD!!!

#73 1453 R

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 01:16 PM

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:


...

I NEVER SAID GROUPS SHOULDN'T HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY. I SAID SOLO'S SHOULD HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY!

IT IS ALL OF YOU THAT ARE SAYING SOLO'S SHOULDN'T HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY AND ONLY GROUPS MATTER.

...


Solos do have a place to play. It's called "The Quick Play Queue".

Your desire for a space where only solo players can drop is not the same as solo players having no place to drop.

Your very first post in this thread was "100% agreement" with the original poster, who did in fact state that groups should not have a place to play. The oft-repeated "all groups should be banished to Faction Play forever" mantra is no different than "all groups should be banned from MWO forever", on account of Faction Play being objectively terrible and also impossible to run - and everybody knows it.

You have been informed why there is only one single functional queue in MWO, and you have chosen to willfully ignore that information and respond with diatribes, vitriol, and uneducated nonsense instead. Why do you believe anyone should take your word seriously? The one thing you've presented as a "fact" for your case - i.e. "group queues died, solo queue lived" - is A.) no evidence whatsoever of anything relating to match quality, and B.) not even true. Solo queue died, too - it was replaced with the soup queue because Piranha realized they couldn't keep telling people with friends that they weren't allowed to play with their friends.

If you're going to actually argue your case, do a better job please.

#74 pbiggz

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 01:23 PM

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:



Do you read what you write?

You say that not allowing groups in solo que is keeping them from playing. You say that not having a solo only que is not keeping solos from playing. Do you know the meaning of double standard?



Its not a double standard. If you remove groups from the queue and put them in a separate queue, it will be too empty to form matches, like it was before the merger. If you leave the queue merged, everyone gets matches.

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:

You don't have to demand that solos be removed they were already removed.


No they weren't

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:

Besides the fact that FP still exists for group play, group players can play in the solo que. Nothing I have said is trying keep groups from playing. I'm advocating that solo que be kept solo just way too late. It was already changed. There is nothing that can be done about it now.


FP is irrelevant, the changes discussed in past posts made it an unfun, empty queue. Nobody plays it except for the odd time when pre-arranged full 12 mans go at it. For the most part that queue is empty, so suggesting all group players should go there is essentially saying "you guys get an empty queue so i dont have to deal with you".

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:

stuff


ok

#75 Castigatus

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 01:29 PM

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:


You don't need to say that solos should get ******... they already got *******.

For the last time for the cheap seats.

I NEVER SAID GROUPS SHOULDN'T HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY. I SAID SOLO'S SHOULD HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY!

IT IS ALL OF YOU THAT ARE SAYING SOLO'S SHOULDN'T HAVE A PLACE TO PLAY AND ONLY GROUPS MATTER.

Sorry Castigatus I didn't welcome you to the conversation and I'm taking my frustrations with these entitled ******* out on you.

Please forgive my crassness.


Like people have said, solos DO have a place to play and never had it taken away, other people getting to play in your sandbox as well doesn't mean it doesn't exist

We've never argued against the existence of solo players or said that they don't deserve a place in the game. They absolutely do, but that's not what you've been supporting or what you've been arguing for. You are trying to claim that solos should have the entire queue all to themselves and groups should get relegated to one mode that barely anyone played at the best of times, something the game cannot support as things are right now, so yes, you are arguing that groups should get ****** in favour of solo players. I don't really care why you feel that way, although the reasons you've presented seem spurious at best, I simply cannot agree with you on that point.

Edited by Castigatus, 04 January 2022 - 01:30 PM.


#76 Eatit

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 01:29 PM

View Post1453 R, on 04 January 2022 - 01:16 PM, said:

Solos do have a place to play. It's called "The Quick Play Queue".

Your desire for a space where only solo players can drop is not the same as solo players having no place to drop.

Your very first post in this thread was "100% agreement" with the original poster, who did in fact state that groups should not have a place to play. The oft-repeated "all groups should be banished to Faction Play forever" mantra is no different than "all groups should be banned from MWO forever", on account of Faction Play being objectively terrible and also impossible to run - and everybody knows it.

You have been informed why there is only one single functional queue in MWO, and you have chosen to willfully ignore that information and respond with diatribes, vitriol, and uneducated nonsense instead. Why do you believe anyone should take your word seriously? The one thing you've presented as a "fact" for your case - i.e. "group queues died, solo queue lived" - is A.) no evidence whatsoever of anything relating to match quality, and B.) not even true. Solo queue died, too - it was replaced with the soup queue because Piranha realized they couldn't keep telling people with friends that they weren't allowed to play with their friends.

If you're going to actually argue your case, do a better job please.


I don't need to argue better... you are doing a fantastic job of making my case for me.

#77 Heavy Money

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 01:33 PM

Quote

I see here that you also like to make up for low quality with high quantity.


I'll make it simple for you then. Here's what's been happening the last couple pages:

You: "X has happened, and it happened because of Y."
Other people: "But we know explicitly it happened because of Z."
You: "But it did happen. You cannot deny this. Therefore, it happened because of Y."

This style of argument is frustrating for everyone to read. You are making a giant logical flaw that is obvious to everyone else. People have repeatedly explained the flaw in your reasoning, and you've responded by attacking them for being entitled and claiming their detailed explanations of both their arguments and the context of the issue were just empty blocks of text. So now everyone is annoyed with you.

You're also doing this:

You: "I want to do Y, but don't want to cause X."
Other people: "Doing Y causes X. So by wanting to do Y, you also want to do X."
You: "OMG why do you keep saying I want X! I don't, I just want Y! I never said I wanted X! You're all so entitled!"
Other people: Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image


Its all a moot point anyway. The population is too low to have separate pools of players. Having a mixed queue has pros and cons. It has chased some solo only players away from the game, sure. But being able to play with friends is one of the only things propping up the player population now. At this point, the remaining population of the game are solo players who don't mind the merged queue enough to quit, and group players. We already lost the solo players who did mind enough to quit. Let's not now lose group only players too.

Splitting the queues again will:
  • Cause much worse queue times and probably also match quality for both types.
  • Chase away lots of more casual/low tier groups because they'll get stomped by top tier groups more in a group only setting than in the current merged queue setting (because of too small of population to match only proper skill level groups, like Faction Play is already.)
  • Chase away higher tier groups because they'll just match the same couple other high tier groups over and over, or will just stomp lower tier groups (like Faction play.)
  • Chase off the large amount of the player base who are in a group, but are just chatting with their friends and not really playing in any way that is different from solo dropping, and not causing the problems people complain about.
  • Reduce the main pipeline of bringing new players into the game, which is friends bringing in friends.
  • There's no guarantee it will bring back any significant portion of the players that we already lost from merging the queue. So we'll have the worst of both worlds where we lost all the people who wanted solo only, and then we also lost the people that wanted to be able to group. We'll have kneecapped the player base twice for no gain.
  • There's no guarantee that removing groups will even make anyone happier or whine less. Most of the whining about groups isn't even identifying issues correctly. Whining is a state of mind. Whiners gonna whine. Its not worth gutting the player base just to be able to eliminate one of the ways people misunderstand why they lost.
  • It will make a few people happier whose annoyance with the game is actually due to problems caused by merged queue. These problems do exist, and these people do exist. But its a tiny pro against a game ending list of cons.
The only viable path given the current state of the game is to change incentives, not to break things. Make Faction Play more accessible and less polarized, and lots of people grouping in QP will go there instead, and the whole thing will work better. If you want a productive discussion on this whole issue, it'd be a discussion on how to improve Faction Play.

Edited by Heavy Money, 04 January 2022 - 01:47 PM.


#78 Castigatus

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 01:41 PM

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 01:29 PM, said:


I don't need to argue better... you are doing a fantastic job of making my case for me.


You absolutely do need to argue better Eatit, because so far you've done a terrible job of it. Try actually addressing peoples points instead of handwaving away everything you disagree with, stop being needlessly antagonistic with everyone who disagrees with you, and above all stop doing the things Heavy pointed out in his post above this one because they do not do your credibility any favours what so ever.

#79 Heavy Money

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 02:03 PM

Hello Eatit, welcome back to the conversation. Thanks for your welcome, but I was actually already here earlier in the thread.

You have said:

Quote

I don't need to argue better...


And now:

View PostEatit, on 04 January 2022 - 01:50 PM, said:

[redacted]



As fellow denizens of the internet, we all know that when somebody is saying things like this instead of addressing specific points, they have lost the argument. They probably never really had a real argument. They can't admit it, and they don't have the tact to just stop responding and move on. So they say these clichés that prove nothing and impress nobody and cause unnecessary animosity even though nobody was really bothered before. The usual script would be for you to now claim that you were just pretending to be wrong to test us or troll us, or claim that you just don't have time for this anymore to try to make it look like you're trying to take the high ground. Shall we move to that page of the internet arguing script?

We all know. And we know that you know.

Thanks for being in the conversation! See you next time.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 04 January 2022 - 11:17 PM.
quote clean-up


#80 CFC Conky

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Posted 04 January 2022 - 03:15 PM

View PostHeavy Money, on 02 January 2022 - 11:14 PM, said:


They have the Cadet icon on the score board. Its a C with a green background.


Hi HM,

A Cadet icon next to a player's name does not necessarily mean they are Cadets. They could very well be T1 players in alt accounts and unless I'm mistaken you keep that Cadet designation for your first 25 matches regardless of your Tier.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky





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