186 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

ccrider, on 05 January 2022 - 09:42 PM, said:

Also; I remember when the forums were fun. Like real fun almost as good as playing. Now it's just boring. Just people talking about groups or bitching about how brawling or sniping or lurming is a no skill strategy or the only strategy or ruining the game or fixing the game or whatever.


I'm gonna go find NKVA and ask them to come back to the forums so I'm not so bored.

community warfare made people mAd

it was great. going and finding matches on the wrong front would get you yelled at by the giant lurmer RP unit, which you could then mercilessly troll.

The good old days

Edited by pbiggz, 06 January 2022 - 05:37 AM.

[GoodTry]

justcallme A S H, on 05 January 2022 - 10:41 PM, said:

Yeah the one on stream was pre-change. I've done another as well, although that was off stream as it was in my free time which was limited so streaming it wasn't possible.

Within 3 games I was in Tier 4.
I think within 40-50 games I was in Tier 3.

I'd have to check extractly, I've written it down somewhere. It takes around 150-200 games for anyone solid to max the T1 bar but you are certainly into Tier 1 by that point.

Suffice to say anyone with greater than a 280-300 AvgMS (which is well above the average of playerbase) will be able to achieve similar rapid progression and won't be below a Tier 3 level for long and Tier 1 is maybe 250-350 matches, depending.

I think your estimation of how many games it takes for "anyone solid" is a bit low, unless "anyone solid" means a top comp player (which I certainly am not). Here is my jarl's list score: https://leaderboard....earch?u=GoodTry

Here is how many games it took me to reach each tier a couple of months ago:
Tier 3: 48
Tier 2: 128
Tier 1: 213
Max Tier 1: 306

Honestly I really think they should bring back the bonus PSR for the first 25 games.

[GoodTry]

SharDar, on 05 January 2022 - 07:50 PM, said:

My gripe with the group players is that it seems most of them are using private communication channels. I certainly can't back that up with any evidence, though. Good matches usually have a high level of communication about targets and priorities. So often, I ask for help using the mic and none is forthcoming. I can't tell if that's an issue with people not being on the coms or the generally poor level of teamwork in so many of the matches.

Asking for help is rarely going to succeed. People asking for help don't realize how hard it is to actually help others.

I usually ignore calls for help unless it's from someone I know, or if I can see the situation developing and there is a way to assist (in which case I would have helped anyway). This is how it goes if you try to respond to random calls for help:

(1) Someone said "help!" Now I have to stop fighting and figure out where they are and what the problem is.
(2) Oh look, they are halfway across the map with three mechs on them. They'll be dead by the time I get there, then I will be dead, and our team will be down two mechs instead of one. Nope. Or:
(3) Oh look, they are at spawn with a light on them. They'll be dead by the time I get there, and I'll get torn up too and waste half my match. Nope. Or:
(4) Oh look, they dove the enemy team and have five mechs focus firing them. They'll be dead by the time I get there, then I will be out of position too. Or:
(5) Oh look, they are at 35% health and I'd have to expose and cross through those three snipers' lines of fire to get there. Nope.

I will almost always help out if it's someone I know, who I can trust is calling for help because they are in a situation where they can actually be helped. E.g., if it's an assault that's lagging just a bit behind who has a light mech or two on them. But that's pretty uncommon.

[DaZur]

ccrider, on 05 January 2022 - 09:42 PM, said:

Also; I remember when the forums were fun. Like real fun almost as good as playing. Now it's just boring. Just people talking about groups or bitching about how brawling or sniping or lurming is a no skill strategy or the only strategy or ruining the game or fixing the game or whatever.

The forum used to be filled with a lot of people invested in MWO and it's success... Sadly, there are only a handful of us left. Add a influx of new'ish players that have little knowledge of the lore aspect of Mechwarrior and we are saddled with a playerbase who approaches MWO like a typical shooter versus having an underlying appreciation of what this particular IP is/was.

Heavy Money, on 05 January 2022 - 10:09 PM, said:

And remember, a lot of people that won't talk back are still listening.

"sheepishly raises hand"... Me, I'm that guy.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

I agree. Since I returned to play this game around Sep 2021 after not playing it since like 2017 or 2018, this change to the QP queue has been one of the worst things I have experienced. I understand people want to play together, and I also understand that the population isn't enough to sustain multiple buckets like a separate group queue, but the 12v12 is not a big enough match to allow for a 4 person group and expect to not have an outsized impact (even a 2-3 person group can have an outsized impact depending on the players). I have been on both sides of being in a group and roflstomping and not being in a group and being roflstomped.

I do understand there are people who might group up and not be top tier players so their impact is minimal, but 100% agree that groups in general/principle should not be allowed in QP. Unless PGI changes the match size to something like 60 or something like BR games where a group of 3 can still impact the game but due to the sheer number of people in the game, that impact is minimal. Pretty awful change.

Edited by Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-, 06 January 2022 - 01:35 PM.

[1453 R]

Seconding GoodTry's comments about people screeching for help. The "HELP!" scrollwheel command is the bane of my god damned existence. Virtually all the time it's used, somebody made a boneheaded-*** decision no amount of throwing away my own 'Mech or my own position will alleviate, and when it's not someone beyond salvation bellowing for help, it's someone in the middle of the pack screeching "HELP!" because one guy swept them with one large laser at max range once.

"HELP!" needs to be accompanied by a short, actionable voice call: "Assault in G7, facing two Piranhas, help if you can", "Pushing E5, help me break through", "big enemy push in C4, pivot or we'll get rolled", or the like. A naked "HELP!" command gets ignored in virtually all cases; if I help you after you screech 'HELP!', it's because I could physically see what's happening and was in a position to intercede anyways.

Don't be the guy screeching "HELP!" ten grid squares away from the team because you're in a light 'Mech and you poked your nose into a firing line.

Don't be the guy screeching "HELP!" ten grid squares away from the enemy team because you're in a 30kph Annihilator and spent the first ninety seconds of the match on TikTok instead of making best speed to keep up with the team.

In fact, just don't be the guy screeching "HELP!" at all. Ignore the stupid heckin' scrollwheel command nobody listens to and call for help in comms if you need it and didn't do something stupid first.

[Curccu]

GoodTry, on 06 January 2022 - 07:18 AM, said:

I think your estimation of how many games it takes for "anyone solid" is a bit low, unless "anyone solid" means a top comp player (which I certainly am not). Here is my jarl's list score: https://leaderboard....earch?u=GoodTry

Here is how many games it took me to reach each tier a couple of months ago:
Tier 3: 48
Tier 2: 128
Tier 1: 213
Max Tier 1: 306

Honestly I really think they should bring back the bonus PSR for the first 25 games.

True that comp is bit different than any other game mode but I'd say that with some comp training you could very much be top comp player I mean you are average matchscoring 2021 over 400 with 59 percent played lights.

you are correct that ASH kinda said "anyone solid" = 99.+ percentile player

[RickySpanish]

In higher tier games 'help' is used to draw attention to a push you want to make, or a flanking attempt that got spotted. Usually someone will call out in comms as well. It's a pretty useful feature; just don't use it if you are in one of the situations mentioned already, where asking for help would put more than you in severe danger. Personally, I use it most often if I need a plus one to discourage a Light, or to kill someone out of position.

[justcallme A S H]

Curccu, on 06 January 2022 - 02:32 PM, said:

True that comp is bit different than any other game mode but I'd say that with some comp training you could very much be top comp player I mean you are average matchscoring 2021 over 400 with 59 percent played lights.

you are correct that ASH kinda said "anyone solid" = 99.+ percentile player

Yep 98-99, plenty of players that fit into that aren't comp players either, so it certainly isn't just 'top comp'. Each % is ~300-350 players from memory.

If you extend my numbers out 100 matches further, even 200 - that would encompass 1,000s of players to be solidly all into Tier 1 as you're then down to around 280 AvgMS as noted.

The playerbases average skill level is now that low such that even slightly above average players (260-280 AvgMS) have no issues climbing Tiers at a reasonable rate and thus PSR is doing it's job and relatively quickly.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 January 2022 - 05:05 PM.

[Spheroid]

feeWAIVER, on 04 January 2022 - 05:18 PM, said:

Getting rid of groups in Quickplay would absolutely kill the game.

Best not to present opinion as fact.

[pbiggz]

Spheroid, on 06 January 2022 - 05:06 PM, said:

Best not to present opinion as fact.

Do you know what happens when you fragment already small populations?

The queues stop working.

Do you know how we know that?

Because they had to consolidate the queues.

[justcallme A S H]

1453 R, on 06 January 2022 - 02:30 PM, said:

Spoiler

Seconding GoodTry's comments about people screeching for help. The "HELP!" scrollwheel command is the bane of my god damned existence. Virtually all the time it's used, somebody made a boneheaded-*** decision no amount of throwing away my own 'Mech or my own position will alleviate, and when it's not someone beyond salvation bellowing for help, it's someone in the middle of the pack screeching "HELP!" because one guy swept them with one large laser at max range once.

"HELP!" needs to be accompanied by a short, actionable voice call: "Assault in G7, facing two Piranhas, help if you can", "Pushing E5, help me break through", "big enemy push in C4, pivot or we'll get rolled", or the like. A naked "HELP!" command gets ignored in virtually all cases; if I help you after you screech 'HELP!', it's because I could physically see what's happening and was in a position to intercede anyways.

Don't be the guy screeching "HELP!" ten grid squares away from the team because you're in a light 'Mech and you poked your nose into a firing line.

Don't be the guy screeching "HELP!" ten grid squares away from the enemy team because you're in a 30kph Annihilator and spent the first ninety seconds of the match on TikTok instead of making best speed to keep up with the team.

In fact, just don't be the guy screeching "HELP!" at all. Ignore the stupid heckin' scrollwheel command nobody listens to and call for help in comms if you need it and didn't do something stupid first.

Most of the time the individual asking/screeching for help has let themselves get so horribly out of position that saving them will be of detriment to the team as you (and others) need to them give up your solid positions to rescue said screecher.

Soon as someone asks for help if I can't see them on the minimap they are then deemed to be too far away and not worth the time. Better off to focus on targets closer and having an impact there and pulling the game back.

Of course that isn't always the case. I use command wheel/help a lot when the team is well-enough grouped as I move to take another position or similar so the marker appears for me and thus my movement etc. That is good-use of the command wheel.

[feeWAIVER]

Actually, you know what? I'm sorry.
I've been entirely too negative. I've been a jerk for too long.

That's directed towards everyone.

I'm gonna log in now.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 06 January 2022 - 09:01 PM.

[DCouch]

feeWAIVER, on 06 January 2022 - 06:36 PM, said:

So many words to justify pug armor culture.

Using part of the playerbase to provide cheap thrills and kills to another part of the playerbase is expedient and requires less dev time than doing it right and providing a proper match match service.

Which is the reason the population is low to begin with. Now the population is too low to take the risk.
As doing it right, may not be enough at this later hour.

Chicken and the Egg

The population definitely did not drop due to the quality of the mech packs, they were pretty good.

Edited by DCouch, 06 January 2022 - 09:03 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

DCouch, on 06 January 2022 - 09:02 PM, said:

Using part of the playerbase to provide cheap thrills and kills to another part of the playerbase is expedient and requires less dev time than doing it right and providing a proper match match service.

Which is the reason the population is low to begin with. Now the population is too low to take the risk.
As doing it right, may not be enough at this later hour.

Chicken and the Egg

The population definitely did not drop due to the quality of the mech packs, they were pretty good.

They just need to make faction play attractive.
It's well known that playing with a group provides emotional investment and creates long term players.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 06 January 2022 - 09:57 PM.

[DCouch]

First you need to ask why isn't FW attractive.
Initially it was attractive but that was probably more due to the IP, and idea of faction warfare and the idea's people had in their heads about FW.

Once that expectation was not meet FW had a slow but steady decline.
Over the years the devs have made a lot of changes to FW to make it more attractive.
Back in the day I played it almost everyday when you could get matches non stop.

It seems no amount of emotional investment playing in group could create a prosperous FW player base.
Emotional investment playing in group is not the be all and end all of things in regards to player retention.

Plus not all people play in groups, many play solo for reasons each reason valid. Ignoring the solo portion of the playerbase and using them to provide cheap kills and thrills to groups alienates solo players.

Edit: I myself started solo, then played in groups for many years, then went back to solo as I detest Pug armor culture. I always liked Matched Matches Culture.

Same could be said about lesser skilled groups, emotional investment playing in group not being sufficient to retain many.

The only thing the devs didnt try or do in FW was provide a proper match match service.
Same can be said for group queue and Solaris.
A proper match making service can't be gamed.

In the heyday of the game while mech packs were flowing off the shelves, people scoff, Make Maker!
We don't need not match maker the queues are full.
Good matchmaking keeps the queues full, lack of match making lead to a decline.

But yeah like I said, too late to take the risk matchmaking that at this stage of the games life.
Personally I would take the risk, but its not my game.

Seems you have changed your mind.
Pug armor culture ain't so bad?

Edited by DCouch, 07 January 2022 - 01:25 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

DCouch, on 07 January 2022 - 01:19 AM, said:

Once that expectation was not meet FW had a slow but steady decline.
Over the years the devs have made a lot of changes to FW to make it more attractive.

Not true. With each patch/change to Faction (Community Warfare) it become less and less attractive.

More units and players quit with each patch.

FP 3.0 was a fail, as was 3.1.
Long Tom was also a complete failure that Russ openly refused to accept the unanimous feedback for around 6 months.

The list of Faction Play upgrades that hurt the mode is massive. It was never made more attractive..

[Curccu]

DCouch, on 07 January 2022 - 01:19 AM, said:

First you need to ask why isn't FW attractive.
Initially it was attractive but that was probably more due to the IP, and idea of faction warfare and the idea's people had in their heads about FW.

Once that expectation was not meet FW had a slow but steady decline.
Over the years the devs have made a lot of changes to FW to make it more attractive.
Back in the day I played it almost everyday when you could get matches non stop.

Pretty much what ASH said before me, most huge changes to CW are just bad and and most of them were made when PGI didn't give a **** about players opinion.
Some changes were good also but but those only stopped decline of player base, not really draw players to CW that didn't already play it. So many changes were so bad that entire units just quit game and never came back... best example of those is that so insanely stupid idea called long tom, me and my unit pretty much also stopped playing CW at that point, started again after it was gone but FP player base was never same again after that ego show by Russ.

PS. "Back in the day I played it almost everyday when you could get matches non stop." why not post with your main account?

[DaZur]

Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-, on 06 January 2022 - 01:29 PM, said:

I have been on both sides of being in a group and roflstomping and not being in a group and being roflstomped.

I've also been witness to groups being rolfstomped...

A group is not a guarantee of higher level of play. In fact (well opinion).. Aside from slightly better coordination, few groups I play against exhibit hardly any higher player skill than your average PUG.

I say this not to diminish any groups but to mitigate the premise that "group" automatically =/= rolfstomp.

[ScrapIron Prime]

justcallme A S H, on 07 January 2022 - 01:46 AM, said:

Not true. With each patch/change to Faction (Community Warfare) it become less and less attractive.

More units and players quit with each patch.

FP 3.0 was a fail, as was 3.1.
Long Tom was also a complete failure that Russ openly refused to accept the unanimous feedback for around 6 months.

The list of Faction Play upgrades that hurt the mode is massive. It was never made more attractive..

Faction play also had one limitation that isn't PGI's fault... time. When you sit down for a FP drop, you're committing to an hour pretty much uninterrupted. You can't just AFK to get the dog out or to put your kid back to bed. That was a built in limit to participating in them that is far less pronounced than playing with your buddies in quick play.

But yes, real life aside, each additional negative added to faction play reduced its population even further and only served to increase the amount of time you were committing to for a FP drop... but just adding it onto the front end waiting screen where you could do... nothing... for dozens of minutes at a time.

I honestly believe that if PGI had redone the user interface so we could DO things while waiting for a FP match to start (like mech lab or testing grounds or... well... ANYTHING), they would have retained a higher player base.


How many times did I sit there for a half hour, BS-ing with my team while playing freaking SOLITAIRE and waiting for the drop to start? Lots. The answer is lots.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 07 January 2022 - 07:16 AM.