185 replies to this topic

[Roodkapje]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 31 January 2022 - 11:51 PM, said:

Can confirm. Looks indeed like a misplaced launcher tube shadow.

Thnx!

Hope they fix it in the next patch or the one after that...

[w0qj]

Good news: Predator Booster Pack Challenge Event extended until around 20-Feb-2022 @ 23:59pm UTC !!

Please keep your Standard Variant mechs from the Predator Booster Pack to complete this Challenge Event !!

[SockSlayer]

I just realized...Flamers in theory are not the only weapon that would deal heat damage that are in the game right now. Even burning lasers are a thing in today's tech, and they are weaker than the power from large lasers in mwo.

So...should large lasers deal at least even 0.1 heat damage next to the flamers 4.5? Then large lasers should be dealing heat to the enemy.

Edited by SockSlayer, 04 February 2022 - 09:27 PM.

[John Bronco]

SockSlayer, on 04 February 2022 - 09:26 PM, said:

I just realized...Flamers in theory are not the only weapon that would deal heat damage that are in the game right now. Even burning lasers are a thing in today's tech, and they are weaker than the power from large lasers in mwo.

So...should large lasers deal at least even 0.1 heat damage next to the flamers 4.5? Then large lasers should be dealing heat to the enemy.

No.

[NoxMorbis]

justcallme A S H, on 17 January 2022 - 09:33 PM, said:

As they are statistically proven to be the worst performing weight class in MWO.

What information can you provide that disproves the data?

What do you mean by "worst performing?" You mean raw damage? Yeah, no kidding. Their LIGHTS, not assaults. If you mean they don't have the ability to turn the match in their team's favor, you're nuts. They sure do. They're purpose isn't to do max damage. They have a lot of other tricks they can use to turn a match in their team's favor. Max damage isn't really a way to assess a mechs overall "performance."

Edited by NoxMorbis, 05 February 2022 - 12:09 PM.

[NoxMorbis]

SockSlayer, on 04 February 2022 - 09:26 PM, said:

I just realized...Flamers in theory are not the only weapon that would deal heat damage that are in the game right now. Even burning lasers are a thing in today's tech, and they are weaker than the power from large lasers in mwo.

So...should large lasers deal at least even 0.1 heat damage next to the flamers 4.5? Then large lasers should be dealing heat to the enemy.

Good point, but in theory anything as large and slow as a mechanized robot on the battle field would be annihilated. That's why in reality, tanks have gotten flatter and flatter over time, which reduces their target silhouette. Technology always gets smaller for the same power, not bigger.

[justcallme A S H]

NoxMorbis, on 05 February 2022 - 12:08 PM, said:

What do you mean by "worst performing?" You mean raw damage? Yeah, no kidding. Their LIGHTS, not assaults. If you mean they don't have the ability to turn the match in their team's favor, you're nuts. They sure do. They're purpose isn't to do max damage. They have a lot of other tricks they can use to turn a match in their team's favor. Max damage isn't really a way to assess a mechs overall "performance."

So you don't have any data?


Any mech can turn the tide of a match when played correctly. Fact is lights perform the worst overall in all metrics so they are not overpowered.

[SockSlayer]

NoxMorbis, on 05 February 2022 - 12:12 PM, said:

Good point, but in theory anything as large and slow as a mechanized robot on the battle field would be annihilated. That's why in reality, tanks have gotten flatter and flatter over time, which reduces their target silhouette. Technology always gets smaller for the same power, not bigger.

But if did...yikes, this is supposedly 1000 plus years from now, only drawing attention to the fact lasers generally cause heat to targets, even the ones in this time do that...can you imagine how strong they'd be given 1000 years even with the loss of lostech?

To John Bronco, so are prescribing that they have made lasers that frostbite foes instead of heating? The lasers have to either go real hot or cold or somehow produce crazy radiation to damage...

And to the lights being under or overpowered argument, it depends ALOT on the pilot. Since its speed equals its dodge, you got to be creative with your dodging/attacks.

Edited by SockSlayer, 05 February 2022 - 05:19 PM.

[Roodkapje]

When you are part of the right proper "Light Hunting Pack" then the enemy is TOAST!!!

And despite of the skills of the average MWO player becoming worse than worse over the last year or so I have been fortunate enough to be part of such a hunting pack a couple of times!

[NoxMorbis]

justcallme A S H, on 05 February 2022 - 04:03 PM, said:

So you don't have any data?


Any mech can turn the tide of a match when played correctly. Fact is lights perform the worst overall in all metrics so they are not overpowered.

Yes, I have data, and I'm calling your premise into question: "Fact is lights perform the worst overall in all metrics. . . ."

Metrics:

• Speed (can be superior to almost all other mechs)
  
• Small Target Silhouette = Harder to Hit Hit Boxes
  
• Can have DPS at or greater than mediums or some heavies.
  
• Can be used as effective medium snipers
  
• Can be used as effective long range snipers
  
• Generally can use jump jets more effectively than most other mechs.

Again, if your "metrics" are raw damage, then they should be inferior.

Why don't you define what "all metrics" means to you?

Roodkapje, on 06 February 2022 - 04:21 AM, said:

When you are part of the right proper "Light Hunting Pack" then the enemy is TOAST!!!

And despite of the skills of the average MWO player becoming worse than worse over the last year or so I have been fortunate enough to be part of such a hunting pack a couple of times!

Oh, me too, man, me too. It's almost boring.

[SockSlayer]

Well I had a once in a blue moon match in a 14 flamer gargoyle, 2 er small, where it actually worked. But here is how situational it truly is to use flamers (and why other weapons are usually more used):

-Solaris City (very tight spaces, so 103 m works ok).
-Weapon groups have to be split to avoid the heat penalty thus how many steps are in the activation process to fire all of them varies. (for this, it was 2 groups of 7, thus you activate the 2 groups a second apart to avoid the higher penalty, but takes more skill)
-Great against hellbringers and such but have a buddy system in place if you should meet a viper or pirahna.
-Tonnage is an issue on IS side since small lasers are less tonnage and heat for more damage.
-Comment: if it did 0.2 damage or had 10 m more on range, it would be perfect, it is just razor thin underpowered. Can add HSL to bigger fatties that can't chase lights.

For comparison:
1. Narcs (though no damage, it serves as both a missile enhancer and focus fire call, more than half of narced mechs meet their maker.

2. Inner Sphere LBX2 (Pick a mountain and camp on it, literally, and no piloting skills needed, just need to aim)

3. Tag (no damage, but no heat, and like narcs, just different in how it does it)

4. AC20 (a little situational cause of range, but they don't want to be near you)...

5. Er ppc (hot pain from a distance, makes you cry, turns your fancy ecm off, thus a special weapon like flamers, but way more tonnage).

6. LRMS (strong right now, but has a perfect counter in the form of a 4 ams corsair, balanced as it should be)

7. ECM (though not a weapon, it relates to ams as it stops targeting from missiles. This is why I think flamers should have more range, as ECM was ruled originally to have too much range 180m, so they then nerfed it to 90m, then later revised it to 120m, I believe flamers should have it increased to 100m from 90m, most are experienced enough in the game now to handle it, both in dealing it and taking it).

[NoxMorbis]

SockSlayer, on 05 February 2022 - 05:15 PM, said:

But if did...yikes, this is supposedly 1000 plus years from now, only drawing attention to the fact lasers generally cause heat to targets, even the ones in this time do that...can you imagine how strong they'd be given 1000 years even with the loss of lostech?

To John Bronco, so are prescribing that they have made lasers that frostbite foes instead of heating? The lasers have to either go real hot or cold or somehow produce crazy radiation to damage...

And to the lights being under or overpowered argument, it depends ALOT on the pilot. Since its speed equals its dodge, you got to be creative with your dodging/attacks.

They must have some dumb tech, then, because their tech gets bigger and bigger. lol. Still, as far as I can foresee, 100 tons is still 100 tons, even in 1000 years. In 1000 years, we won't even have armored vehicles. We'll have hypersonic pencil missiles made out of some hard and dense material that travels at 30, 000 MPS and has the destructive power of a large bomb--or something. lol.

[SockSlayer]

The mwo future seems to assume that tech has moved just enough for space travel and other better tech, but not extreme futuristic. In theory, it should be better than now.

[justcallme A S H]

NoxMorbis, on 06 February 2022 - 12:47 PM, said:

Why don't you define what ;all metrics; means to you?
.

The publicly available ones?

KDR, WLR, Usage etc.

Those matter and are verifiable. Plenty of information available.

The ones you made up are conveniently structured to suit your own argument and have no data that's measurable. Not sure how you expect to have a meaningful discussion on made up metrics.

[pattonesque]

Roodkapje, on 06 February 2022 - 04:21 AM, said:

When you are part of the right proper "Light Hunting Pack" then the enemy is TOAST!!!

this is broadly true about a group with any combination of weight classes if the group is good enough

[NoxMorbis]

justcallme A S H, on 07 February 2022 - 04:43 AM, said:

The publicly available ones?

KDR, WLR, Usage etc.

Those matter and are verifiable. Plenty of information available.

The ones you made up are conveniently structured to suit your own argument and have no data that's measurable. Not sure how you expect to have a meaningful discussion on made up metrics.

Fair enough, but if that's all you think that matters to gamey play, then I would suggest getting lights on par with assaults and others weight classes would make MWO, LMWO (Light Mech Warrior Online). There would simply be no inventive to run other mechs.

Those metrics are NOT the only way to assess a mechs usefulness in game, and should NOT be the only thing that is looked at. It's a fallacy of analysis that those metrics are all that matters.

I'm just going to give two examples (there are many) that aren't covered in those metrics, which would significantly up the "metrics" of lights:

1. Standing in the back of the enemy front line stealthed using dual PCs or ER Large Lasers to turn an assault away from the battle, thereby possibly decreasing the enemy's DPS by a very large factor.

2. Running into the middle of an assaults' murder ball and causing chaos, while your front line focuses those now rotating to fire on you.

Where are those metrics? Those types of tactics matter. They can win games. Yet, sacrifice and decreasing enemy DPS aren't accounted with the given metrics.

The fallacy is to think current metrics given are perfect metrics that judge a mechs usefulness perfectly, and nothing else matters. It's a little like assessing all automobiles using just a few metrics, like horsepower, mileage, and 0-60MPH performance.

Edited by NoxMorbis, 07 February 2022 - 09:49 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

I never said they were perfect. What they are is:

Measureable, comparable and able to be scrutenised.

The fact is as I said lights are the worst performing class in ALL metrics. If they are as "strong" as you claim that would not be the case. They would have disproportionate WLRs or KDRs, higher useage etc etc. They don't.

That's about all there is too it.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 07 February 2022 - 01:26 PM.

[NoxMorbis]

justcallme A S H, on 07 February 2022 - 12:36 PM, said:

I never said they were perfect. What they are is:

Measureable, comparable and able to be scrutenised.

The fact is as I said lights are the worst performing class in ALL metrics. If they are as "strong" as you claim that would not be the case. They would have disproportionate WLRs or KDRs, higher useage etc etc. They don't.

That's about all there is too it.

If the metrics gauging a mechs performance are imperfect, then any analysis using only those metrics is imperfect, and in the case of lights, those metrics (as I explained in depth above) grossly underestimates lights' real performance. It's not as black and white as you think it is.

Like I said before, lights can do a lot of things other mechs can't that can tip the balance of a match, but they don't have metrics to measure those things. If they did, light mechs would "perform" much better on paper.

It's mystifying you refuse to understand that. I guess it's the difference between synchronous thinking and asynchronous thinking.

Edited by NoxMorbis, 07 February 2022 - 06:12 PM.

[Roodkapje]

pattonesque, on 07 February 2022 - 05:45 AM, said:

this is broadly true about a group with any combination of weight classes if the group is good enough

Agree!

But...

I have seen MANY cases where a Light really made the difference!

[Horseman]

Then devise and present a way to objectively quantify the metrics you think are important and adjust the ones we already have (eg: score kickers).
But FYI... WLR is the most objective metric there is. If the mech has a major impact on the games it engages in, it will come out in the WLR.