112 replies to this topic

[John Bronco]

^^^

Or just look at this guy's stats and realize he does way better in assaults than lights and form your own conclusions.

[D A T A]

i lost the point where a light should be an equally capable damage dealer as an assault....(and unfortunatelly right now a lot of pseudo lights are even better damage dealers and tanks than assaults)
if fast agile mechs were able to pull same damage numbers as assaults (which is already true in comp) then the fast agile mechs would be the only ones worth taking and dominating the game (which is already true in comp).
Classes should come with different roles, and advocating speed, agility, firepower and tankiness all on 1 class is just not the way of the balance.
If then you want to go for a game where the slowest viable mech goes 100 kph, that's another story

Edited by D A T A, 08 February 2022 - 11:42 AM.

[YueFei]

D A T A, on 08 February 2022 - 11:39 AM, said:

if fast agile mechs were able to pull same damage sumbers as assaults (which is already true in comp) then the fast agile mechs would be the only ones worth taking and dominati g the game (which is already true in comp).

That's funny, we saw you win the most recent MWO championship whilst driving a slow Dire Whale. Are you going to claim that you were gimping yourself on purpose?

[D A T A]

YueFei, on 08 February 2022 - 11:42 AM, said:

That's funny, we saw you win the most recent MWO championship whilst driving a slow Dire Whale. Are you going to claim that you were gimping yourself on purpose?

this only has to do with your lack of understanding of comp rules: you can not bring 8 spl microp mg pseudo lights in comp....otherwise we would.

i bring an assault because i have to (you know, hitting **** at 1000+ m requires something called "skill")...if other people could do that i'd just jump on a light: way less skill required and way more relaxing and impacting on a game based on cap wars.

the fact is that the rules force you to bring assaults/heavies, and somebody has to bring them

Edited by D A T A, 08 February 2022 - 11:49 AM.

[John Bronco]

Yes, well I guess it's a good thing that comp is an irrelevant sideshow to the balance discussion for the actual game that most people play.

[Weeny Machine]

D A T A, on 08 February 2022 - 11:39 AM, said:

i lost the point where a light should be an equally capable damage dealer as an assault....(and unfortunatelly right now a lot of pseudo lights are even better damage dealers and tanks than assaults)
if fast agile mechs were able to pull same damage numbers as assaults (which is already true in comp) then the fast agile mechs would be the only ones worth taking and dominating the game (which is already true in comp).
Classes should come with different roles, and advocating speed, agility, firepower and tankiness all on 1 class is just not the way of the balance.
If then you want to go for a game where the slowest viable mech goes 100 kph, that's another story

Now, now, generalization for the win.

1. So, the light mech class is now the PIR and the Flea? Cool. What of the rest?
2. People complain about 2 mechs which profited from the re-scaling because they got tiny, what about the 35t mechs which are easy to hit?
3. A lot of laser spam is played. So the tankiness of those tiny and agile mechs like the PIR and Flea is that they can roll damage nicely. A double gauss...hmmm... As you see, not just the mechs are to play but the loadout as well

I could go on like that. The point is only that there is a lot of generalization going on which is misleading.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 08 February 2022 - 12:34 PM.

[YueFei]

D A T A, on 08 February 2022 - 11:44 AM, said:

this only has to do with your lack of understanding of comp rules: you can not bring 8 spl microp mg pseudo lights in comp....otherwise we would.

i bring an assault because i have to (you know, hitting **** at 1000+ m requires something called "skill")...if other people could do that i'd just jump on a light: way less skill required and way more relaxing and impacting on a game based on cap wars.

the fact is that the rules force you to bring assaults/heavies, and somebody has to bring them

Nah, I specifically pointed out your use of a slow Dire Whale. If what you claim is true, you should've been in a fast Assault.

Or is it in fact the case that you saw that the trade-off in firepower/speed was worthwhile, and your claims that only speed matters is actually wrong?

[D A T A]

Weeny Machine, on 08 February 2022 - 12:24 PM, said:

Now, now, generalization for the win.

1. So, the light mech class is now the PIR and the Flea? Cool. What of the rest?
2. People complain about 2 mechs which profited from the re-scaling because they got tiny, what about the 35t mechs which are easy to hit?
3. A lot of laser spam is played. So the tankiness of those tiny and agile mechs like the PIR and Flea is that they can roll damage nicely. A double gauss...hmmm... As you see, not just the mechs are to play but the loadout as well

I could go on like that. The point is only that there is a lot of generalization going on which is
misleading.

the most used mech in comp was the firestarter, and by a large margin: twice as much usage as second best, while the gaps then become tiny.
And for 1 reason: firestarter is op.
Rescale happened back then, but then there was a huge compensation in survival and post 2021 in agi too.

feel free to consult my yt channell, jgx D A T A, if you need guides on how to use a firestarter or consult proper skill trees, best luck!!

Edited by D A T A, 08 February 2022 - 09:49 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

D A T A, on 08 February 2022 - 09:46 PM, said:

the most used mech in comp was the firestarter, and by a large margin: twice as much usage as second best, while the gaps then become tiny.

Funny that you mention this because just some postings earlier you tried to imply that the PIR-CI was the small "big bad" (IIRC that particular chassis ended up way down the ranks in comp usage). So ...

D A T A, on 08 February 2022 - 09:46 PM, said:

And for 1 reason: firestarter is op.

... it's not those "pseudo lights with 'assault level damage potential' at knive fighting ranges" but instead a mech chassis that was considered obsolete prior to the most recent Cauldron changes that largely tried to compensate the agility losses the Firestarter suffered due to engine desync along with making certain lasers slightly better as well ... and now you're calling that chassis 'OP' while Firestarters - just as PIR-CIs ( and PIR-1s for that matter) - still aren't an overly common sight in quick play.

Could it be that your perception is flawed in two ways:

1. The Firestarter simply being the best choice in Comp because all other Lights are pretty much under powered in this particular context instead of the Firestarter actually being over powered?

2. The Firestarter (and theoretically all other Lights of the same weight) better fitting within the overall weight distribution / limitations of Comp drop decks?

D A T A, on 08 February 2022 - 09:46 PM, said:

Rescale happened back then, but then there was a huge compensation in survival and post 2021 in agi too.

Those agi buffs brought the Firestarter back from extinction in practical play and predominantly within the Comp environment only. However that does not logically lead to a conclusion in alignment with your claim that the Firestarter is (now) "OP".

D A T A, on 08 February 2022 - 09:46 PM, said:

feel free to consult my yt channell, jgx D A T A, if you need guides on how to use a firestarter or consult proper skill trees, best luck!!

Well, I have felt free to have a look at your yt channel and found this:

- While you - as a 99.7+ percentile player - definitely can perform very good in either Firestarters or PIRs your encounters and gameplay results videos are still cherry picked unless you want to call others - who have met you in their QP matches and saw you suffering the low damage deaths that pretty much all Light pilots suffer - liars.

- Particularly your attempts of 'proving' the OP-ness of the various PIR chassis hasn't truly convinced me because usually you very obviously are benefitting from the high coordination with your group and their damage to your respective targets while your opponents - depending on the player composition in the match - still don't have the same aiming skills you posses and regularly make the mistake of ignoring Lights and even when noticing you also tend to make maneuvering mistakes ... not to mention those cases where you have the luck of finding an isolated opponent.

- While I certainly won't deny you the right to play with friends the effects of you also grouping up with lower tier players means that you also face off against more lower tier opponents where it becomes way easier to leverage you higher skill levels

=> Despite your personal gaming proficency in MWO overall I don't find your claims and arguments convincing and they certainly don't match up with either the statistical realities of QP or my personal experiences in that environment.

[edit]
Sidenote: Should I worry that you responded to this thread in an attempt of being serious despite the OP originally having been a rather unserious play on various "Need to nerf Lights" threads?

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 09 February 2022 - 03:20 PM.

[caravann]

There's a difference in game mode. faction play focus on xl engines that you can get away with medium range weapons. quickplay focus on light engine because most modes are based on survival. It feels cheated to die with an xl engine in quickplay.

If I wish for something would be to make light engines in the legs and jumpjets in the engine instead of a heatsink. this way the engine is protected from the back and the jumpjets are not going to take up CASE slot.

Because of how easy an assault removes the armor your choice is to have all armor in the front and since the goal is to survive to capture a base or win by time you end up using a light engine, but it is here this BS start kicking in =

Assault do not need of XL or Light engines, they get better performance by using standard engine since them get slots for standard heatsinks.

Quickplay players do not realize how open their backs are because of light engine. because of outdated design. Because of devs who made it this way.

[Weeny Machine]

I also think argumenting that the FS is the light mech for faction play is an indicator of it being op...sorry, no. It is just the best tonnage filler.

If it were so op, why isn't QP swamped with it? You cannot even call FS common there.

Once more: especially in pvp games players gravitate to the OP mechanics/mechs/characters etc. The whole oh-so-crazy-op light class is outside of events hardly represented. It is just that you see some of the lights more than others but the class as a whole is severely underrepresented.

As for your videos, I could also cherry-pick stuff sorry but I do not mean that as an offense. I mean, getting crippled from one alpha because someone got a bead on you makes no good video

[Curccu]

Weeny Machine, on 09 February 2022 - 08:45 AM, said:

I also think argumenting that the FS is the light mech for faction play is an indicator of it being op...sorry, no. It is just the best tonnage filler.

If it were so op, why isn't QP swamped with it? You cannot even call FS common there.

Even though D A T A calls lights eez and sniping from 1km away hard (well yeah gauss needs some skill from that range, lasers not really, hit scan from slow moving, feet on ground situation is eez) IMO lights require way more skill to do really good and that is why they are not common, they need serious work to be done to do good constantly.

for some reason D A T A has 50 or more better average matchscore with assaults than lights last 3 seasons, some of that score might change if he would play assaults solo and not with other 99% battlebuddy with pretty much identical builds (at least that is impression (always with wingman) I get from D A T A fun club posted videos in these forums).

Edited by Curccu, 09 February 2022 - 10:21 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Curccu, on 09 February 2022 - 10:21 AM, said:

Even though D A T A calls lights eez and sniping from 1km away hard (well yeah gauss needs some skill from that range, lasers not really, hit scan from slow moving, feet on ground situation is eez) IMO lights require way more skill to do really good and that is why they are not common, they need serious work to be done to do good constantly.

for some reason D A T A has 50 or more better average matchscore with assaults than lights last 3 seasons, some of that score might change if he would play assaults solo and not with other 99% battlebuddy with pretty much identical builds (at least that is impression (always with wingman) I get from D A T A fun club posted videos in these forums).

That aside, but if a few players do great, it still wouldn't mean that the light class is not in deep water. The mass of players shows with their mech choices again and again that other classes are better in their eyes. In a pvp game that says all.

[YueFei]

D A T A, on 08 February 2022 - 09:46 PM, said:

the most used mech in comp was the firestarter, and by a large margin: twice as much usage as second best, while the gaps then become tiny.
And for 1 reason: firestarter is op.
Rescale happened back then, but then there was a huge compensation in survival and post 2021 in agi too.

feel free to consult my yt channell, jgx D A T A, if you need guides on how to use a firestarter or consult proper skill trees, best luck!!

You're committing a logical fallacy here. You yourself point out that Comp rules require you to bring certain weight classes. Just because Firestarter was picked more often doesn't mean it's OP. It just means it is the most viable within its weight class. That could be due to other mech choices in that weight class being lackluster in comparison, leading to a lack of variety there. Also, there could be a larger variety of viable chassis in the other weight classes (Medium/Heavy/Assault), meaning no one mech in any of the other weight classes was overwhelmingly chosen over the others. Given this info, this tells you nothing conclusive about the relative strengths between weight classes.

Besides, as I pointed out, if all that matters is speed and short-ranged firepower, why did you decide that the better trade-off was to go slow with heavy long-ranged firepower? Even if you were forced to include an Assault, why did you not take a fast brawly Assault instead of a slow long-ranged gunboat Assault?

Anyways, you have a theory, that so far from your arguments you have not been able to definitely prove your conclusion, because alternative explanations exist. However, your theory is testable. So why not test it? Even if not in a formal tournament setting, arrange a series of scrimmages where the players are rotated through both Teams (to randomize the player factor), and the teams are free to pick anything they like. No restrictions on tonnage or numbers of weight classes. You can bring 8 identical mechs if you want. See what teams "organically" end up fielding in their quest to maximize their chances of winning.

After all, in the NFL, there's no rules restricting the weights or weight classes of the players on the field. You can put in 11 guys who all weigh 150 pounds if you want. Or all 11 of them can be 350+ pounds. It's just that neither choice is optimal, and we see a mix of different weight classes being fielded in different positions. There's no rules artificially forcing teams to do it. It just happens organically because that's the best way to improve their choices of winning.

[Blood Rose]

D A T A, on 08 February 2022 - 09:46 PM, said:

feel free to consult my yt channell, jgx D A T A, if you need guides on how to use a firestarter or consult proper skill trees, best luck!!

DATA, you seem to forget that you are one of the best Light Mech jocks in the game and indeed, one of the rare few able to do incredible amounts of damage in them. Most of us mere mortals struggle to break into triple digits of damage dealt whilst piloting a light.

[Stonefalcon]

In my experience stupid light pilots are the ones constantly complaining, they stand still and get one shot, have a whinge and disconnect. Whereas, skilled light pilots are bloody nightmares to deal with especially when piloting assaults. I am quite fed up with a 20t light being able to wheel chock a 100t assault mech to the point where I don't even enjoy the game anymore and play just to spend time with mates.

[caravann]

another experience is that you are locked in motion. If you so much try to turn around and stop the nascar you stop and die.

[ThreeStooges]

Can we put some one who isn't afraid to move one and shoot back at the same time in an assault? Brain OP Thanks. As for triple damage numbers in a light;that isn't hard at all. You can do it in a adder,oxide,clan oxide,lct-1e,lct-pb or any other 45t mech.

[D A T A]

Stonefalcon, on 09 February 2022 - 03:03 PM, said:

In my experience stupid light pilots are the ones constantly complaining, they stand still and get one shot, have a whinge and disconnect. Whereas, skilled light pilots are bloody nightmares to deal with especially when piloting assaults. I am quite fed up with a 20t light being able to wheel chock a 100t assault mech to the point where I don't even enjoy the game anymore and play just to spend time with mates.

this

for me it's different: this isn't even mechwarrior anymore, for me it's just a twisted mech game where fast brawlers are OP as **** and i am just growing a YT channell out of this nonsense....because as for pure enjoyability, this game is horrendous, small mechs just backstab you out of nowhere and there is nothing you can do about that, you just die to a tier 5 noob because he had a light and you did not (and the Cauldron likes this **** apparently)

Edited by D A T A, 09 February 2022 - 06:11 PM.

[LordNothing]

if were being totally honest, i wouldn't mind if collision damage was quadrupled, especially in situations of large tonnage differences. there are a couple assaults where it is geometrically impossible to see a light directly at your feet. you are aiming entirely on sensors or dumb luck in those situations (and both are more effective than one would think). but a 5 to 1 mass advantage ought to count for something. lethal light stomping or knockdowns have both been tried (the former known affectionately as the 'crunch patch' was very short lived). lights suffering a little bit more for jamming themselves in your legs should be a thing. im normally on the pro squirrel side of these things but in this case the little physics nerd inside my head is screaming. when a school bus runs over a mazda, the end result is a flat mazda (speaking from experience). squirrels should stick to back stabbing.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 February 2022 - 06:07 PM.