130 replies to this topic

[GoodTry]

This is another one that is easily explained by groups.

The top 4-5 players on each side are in groups (depending on whether it is 4 or 3+2). The remainder are balanced randomly if they are the same tier, or by tier if not (some say it's PSR).

This is more or less the expected outcome. I actually would have expected the losing team to have fewer of the better players than it did. That may be because some of the players are still working back from the PSR reset.

I still hope that they take a strong look at secondary match balancing w/ groups if we ever get engineering resources again. When it comes to balancing teams, the matchmaker doesn't understand that there is a huge difference between a 90%-er with a maxed PSR and a 99.9%-er with a maxed PSR. Right now it treats them identically.

Edited by GoodTry, 24 January 2022 - 09:50 AM.

[Scout Derek]

feeWAIVER, on 24 January 2022 - 09:40 AM, said:

If you wanted a challenge, you wouldn't nut cup.
I mean, it's fine, but let's be honest.

He was playing solo on his own before he grouped up with us. I asked him to get in the group.

[Michael Abt]

I wouldn't entirely rule out that there are alt accounts involved. There is an event going on for a free mech after all, a good incentive to dust off an alt, which may not be properly sorted into the correct tier yet due to lack of playtime since the reset.

Anyhow, as long our playerbase is so small the MM will produce matches which are mathematically balanced on paper via average PSR, but in reality they are a bad experience because the extremes on both ends of the curve have a very strong influence how a match develops. That is lost in an average.

[Horseman]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 24 January 2022 - 04:37 AM, said:

Hello again Mr Nice Mech, you are forgetting the PSR reset in 2020. To remember, the PSR rating of every account was reset to 2500 (of 5000 or the very center of Tier 3) on June 30 2020. After that, on December 12 2020, every account that didn't play at least 25 matches after June 30 got reset to PSR 900 (or the upper end of Tier 5). So much for the hard facts.

We explained it to him something like half a dozen times in the last thread. Attributing to incompetence doesn't fly any more.

[F u s i o n]

To the OP - I'm usually not much of a forum poster but I feel that this now 2nd thread has become more contentious (with an us vs them comp/casual mentality) than it needs to be. I remember what it was like to be a new player...admittedly >8 years ago now... and how much I struggled until receiving help from units to improve. First with the Skye Rangers (who I believe you mentioned earlier - great bunch of guys btw) and later with Steel Jaguars. This was my first real shooting game and, were it not for their help and guidance, I never would've been able to improve my skill set. I can't help with the matchmaker, but if you're interested I'd be happy to help improve your play. Whether in the form of build advice, watching you stream or record games for technical tips, or grouping together working on coms, feel free to add me to friends in game and we can set something up. I promise Div A people aren't all evil and I'm sure (personally knowing many players in these threads) that in more amicable circumstances most people with whom you've been conversing would be happy to help as well. The more you feel you can impact a match the less frustrating stomps (yes we've all been on both the giving and receiving end of them) can be.

Edited by F u s i o n, 24 January 2022 - 04:27 PM.

[katoult]

Mr Nice Mech, on 23 January 2022 - 11:35 PM, said:

The fable that you only need a few hundred matches to hit tier 1 is BS.

BS? Since the brown sea is all about proof and screenshots here's a narrative to show it's perfectly possible without even tryharding...

This is one of my alt accounts, "Tier 6", which wasn't impacted by the PSR reset:


January stats for completeness sake, although those are fairly consistent (outside the KDR) with the above average:


And yes, those stats aren't particularly sweaty compared to any of the T1 Comp Scrubs or their alts. You can at least nicely see the progression from initial seal clubbing to more normal gameplay upon entering T3 after about 100 matches in the numbers though.

With the above stats this account just entered Tier 1 (for the first time since starting the account) last friday after its 439th match:



I expect it to steadily progress and fill out the bar likely sometime between match 550 and 600.

No group play was involved in these stats. It is also not about speed-running anyway. The account regularly matched with high-tier players starting when it entered T3 and of course throughout T2 - at least i'm fairly sure i've seen most of 'em at some point or another.

For disclosure: My main account is standing at exactly 50% Jarl's and is in Tier 3. And i actively play to keep it at exactly that point.

Michael Abt, on 24 January 2022 - 11:48 AM, said:

Anyhow, as long our playerbase is so small the MM will produce matches which are mathematically balanced on paper via average PSR, in reality they are a bad experience because the extremes on both ends of the curve have a very strong influence how a match develops.

The below is a recent mathematically properly balanced and distributed Tier 1-3 match. The extremes did not influence it.

[PocketYoda]

Heavy Money, on 24 January 2022 - 03:12 AM, said:

So this whole time Mr Nice Mech has been asking how people are getting these matches, and he didn't mean how does the MM work, he means how is it designed the way it is. And does not seem to notice that people are answering the questions he's asking, not the one he means to be asking

So, why is the MM setup in a way that allows top players to be matched with less than top players, as opposed to just leaving those 99%ers sitting watching a circle spin? That's the real question. But I don't think answering it will satisfy them either

The answer is that no game punishes its top players for being good because that hurts the community. And someone is always better anyway. If you couldn't match against 99%ers, you'd still match against 98%ers who will also beat you. And if you cut them out too, then 97%ers, etc. Eventually, you've cut out so much that you've split the player base hard. Even on less niche games, that's generally not a great idea. Its only the really super massive games that can afford to do this.

All they need to do is fix the group matchmaker, stop the low tiers from being able to team with top tiers which then places them into low tier games.. It should stick the low tiers into high tier games which sucks for the low tiers but then they deserve it for gaming the system.. which most are obviously doing.. Tier 1s helping tier 4s yeah right...

Or only allow the same tiers to group up..

[Curccu]

Nomad Tech, on 25 January 2022 - 01:04 AM, said:

All they need to do is fix the group matchmaker, stop the low tiers from being able to team with top tiers which then places them into low tier games.. It should stick the low tiers into high tier games which sucks for the low tiers but then they deserve it for gaming the system.. which most are obviously doing.. Tier 1s helping tier 4s yeah right...

Or only allow the same tiers to group up..

LOL, yeah I don't know what else write this time.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Nomad Tech, on 25 January 2022 - 01:04 AM, said:

All they need to do is fix the group matchmaker, stop the low tiers from being able to team with top tiers which then places them into low tier games.. It should stick the low tiers into high tier games which sucks for the low tiers but then they deserve it for gaming the system.. which most are obviously doing.. Tier 1s helping tier 4s yeah right...

Or only allow the same tiers to group up..

You not understand the Tier`s ---you plays with better Taems and wins ,you Tier goes up , you plays with bad Teams and lost= you tier goes down.when a T 1plays alone with 11 T4 o5 and lost many Matchs his T goes down.The Tier say not enough to a Skill of a Player..You levels new Mechs, or has bad times and a T2 is in a week a T3 or will you only T1 in your own Team thats carry you ?
for your wish ,you must have a Lobbysystem like Battlefield. who you can see with which guys you plays ,and when is good ,you ca play on this sever all Matchs or leave the server when not and search a other.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 25 January 2022 - 03:03 AM.

[Saved By The Bell]

No. If you play with bad team, you should play even better. Alone.

Its like the real world, yeah?

[ScrapIron Prime]

Nomad Tech, on 25 January 2022 - 01:04 AM, said:

Or only allow the same tiers to group up..

Terrible idea. Imagine two T5 players who start playing the game together. One is slightly better than the other and gets to T4 first, so the matchmaker says they can no longer group together. That would be stupid.

[knight-of-ni]

Guta, on 23 January 2022 - 11:12 PM, said:

Thanks Orion3025, I appreciate it man.

As the guy with the highest damage on your team Mr Nice Mech, I feel exceptionally qualified to chime in here. Are good players not supposed to play with their friends? Are they not supposed to play at all? Maybe low damage players should take a hint from top tier players and learn from them instead of crying about facing them. Watching their streams, playing against them, and talking to them has taught me the thing that really sets them apart from the rest of us is that they actually engage the enemies instead of trying to reposition or rotate. We had five players who didn't crack triple digit damage, and FOUR of them were in heavies or assaults. If those mechs alpha 2 enemies they're in triple digits. This was a tier 1-3 game. How many times do players have to perform like this before you put some responsibilty on their heads instead of blaming a third of the enemy team for the performance of half of our team? Another 4 mechs didn't crack 200 and THREE of them were heavies or assaults. Yes we got beat, yes we all knew it was coming, and yes I sighed pregame to express that. The matchmaker is flawed and PGI lacks the resources to change/fix it considering the tiny player base, this has been known for a long time. But would you rather wait 10 minutes per drop for a more balanced experience? Would you still complain if you did and still lost? There are limitations we all have to work within, as devs, as players, as fans, but it's up to each of us as individuals to make the most of that experience nonetheless. I go up against 4 mans like that all the time, but I still have fun. I even win some of them dropping almost exclusively solo, and I have fun then too. We all get good drops and bad drops, but if you ignore the former to let the latter ruin your experience, then that's on you.

Thanks for chiming in, Guta. As I was scrolling through this thread, I kept thinking to myself that, if I were in Guta's shoes, I'd be feeling pretty good right now. After all, you went up against 4 top players, got the highest match score by quite a bit, yet statistically you had the lowest Jarl's percentage, if that even means anything. Nice work.

Edited by knight-of-ni, 25 January 2022 - 06:03 AM.

[pbiggz]

Nomad Tech, on 25 January 2022 - 01:04 AM, said:

All they need to do is fix the group matchmaker, stop the low tiers from being able to team with top tiers which then places them into low tier games.. It should stick the low tiers into high tier games which sucks for the low tiers but then they deserve it for gaming the system.. which most are obviously doing.. Tier 1s helping tier 4s yeah right...

Or only allow the same tiers to group up..

Because its that easy eh? Just snap your fingers. Don't let other tiers group up. No possible way that might backfire or cause problems in the future? Just fix it. Poof!

Prove you know what you're talking about, because the sheer dismissiveness with which you address these problems, waving serious concerns away like they're nothing tells me you have no clue what the implications of your proposed changes are, and if you do understand the implications, then you're lying about them to conceal your continued attacks on people who you think play the game a way you don't like and therefore in your view shouldn't be allowed to play at all.

[knight-of-ni]

With all this complaining about the matchmaker, who remembers the days when there was no matchmaker?

Anyone have a screenshot of back-in-the-day when your pug team ran up against 12 ECM Atlases? The one where all you see is 12 sets of glowing eyes in the distance?

[Dogstar]

The obvious answer is that the system needs entirely overhauling, and not just the matchmaker but the whole tier system because it quite conclusively can't cope with the top players, especially when they're grouped with others, but there's no chance of that happening until PGI get off their $!"%£% and get stuck in to some coding.

I'm already hit the point where I think PGI need to do something _more_ to convince us they're invested in this game and aren't out to simply milk what remains of the player base for whatever cash they can grab.

Edited by Dogstar, 25 January 2022 - 07:10 AM.

[pbiggz]

Dogstar, on 25 January 2022 - 07:10 AM, said:

The obvious answer is that the system needs entirely overhauling, and not just the matchmaker but the whole tier system because it quite conclusively can't cope with the top players, especially when they're grouped with others, but there's no chance of that happening until PGI get off their $!"%£% and get stuck in to some coding.

I'm already hit the point where I think PGI need to do something _more_ to convince us they're invested in this game and aren't out to simply milk what remains of the player base for whatever cash they can grab.

Im not sure how it can be made any more clear, that the best matchmaker tech money could buy, would still struggle with a population this small.

You can't wave that away. Its not a matter of PGI "putting in the effort" or whatever. With fewer than 1000 active users at peak hours, and a fraction of that at off hours, the match maker will not be able to create matches within all of its ideal constraints 100% of the time.

Either be ok with 20+ minute queues, or be ok with matching with people outside your tier, but stop pretending this is a quick and dirty fix and stop pretending its only an issue because "high tier players" are terrorizing you. Its a false dichotomy and a vast oversimplification of a complex mathematical and technological challenge that is being used by people here in this thread, again, in bad faith, to provide cover for them to continue to attack players they don't like for playing the game in a way they have decided shouldn't be allowed.

[Seelenlos]

pbiggz, on 25 January 2022 - 07:33 AM, said:

You can't wave that away. Its not a matter of PGI "putting in the effort" or whatever. With fewer than 1000 active users at peak hours, and a fraction of that at off hours, the match maker will not be able to create matches within all of its ideal constraints 100% of the time.

AT LEAST there could a WARNING: "You are now getting an unbalanced match!"

[ScrapIron Prime]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 09:16 AM, said:

AT LEAST there could a WARNING: "You are now getting an unbalanced match!"

Followed by what... a third of the team disconnecting? The Prophesy has suddenly come to pass!

[Seelenlos]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 January 2022 - 09:18 AM, said:

Followed by what... a third of the team disconnecting? The Prophesy has suddenly come to pass!

Then you can choose following the next matches or not!

Else it is more frustration. AND QUITING!

What do you think when you make assumptions without further interpolating?

I can also quit again for one year to WoT (IGIT) ! and then follows my friends!

Was that the WIN you wanted?

Think what happens when only 3% of the 1000 do that too....

AT LAST there is no other option to make a little optimizing the algorithms. HECK that's the job of the MMO-Makers!

Edited by Seelenlos, 25 January 2022 - 09:32 AM.

[Nightbird]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 09:31 AM, said:

I can also quit again for one year to WoT (IGIT) ! and then follows my friends!

Was that the WIN you wanted?

People have been complaining about the match maker, every month for years. Just because you're participating in this particular thread won't make the result any different.