64 replies to this topic

[Krovakon]

LordNothing, on 14 February 2022 - 08:52 PM, said:

the problem with 2s and 5s is that you pretty much have to boat them. which means yes you are going to need to a mech with both the tonnage and hardpoints to do so. so a small buff on a single gun becomes a force multiplier on a 6 gun build. the gun still underperforms on light platforms and the boat still dominates the battlefield. then when you get to the 10 class you finally have a weapon that can stand on its own. the 20s have their own issues. balancing guns is deceptively complicated.

that said i think the best way to approach to buffing autocannons, is so make small changes and then spam cd quirks on anything that cant boat the things. that along with the proposed max range buff to the 20 class.

I'd honestly rather see them remove jam chance on UAC's and massively up the heat per shot so that the theoretical DPS remains the same. Now you have a ballistic system that lights/mediums can actually get value out of without them breaking the game by heavies/assaults boating them due to the massive heat generated compared to the standard versions. You can't just bring a single UAC (other than UAC20's) on mechs because they're so obscenely inconsistent, even with -40% jam quirks you can still jam three times in a row and it feels so awful because that's your ONLY weapon system (or primary weapon system in a heavy/assault). This turns the standard autocannons into weapons aimed at heavy/assault mechs since they can be boated and UAC's for lighter mechs since you can't boat them due to heat limitations which light mechs wont be bothered by due to them only being able to fit a single UAC and the ammo needed for it without any other weapons capable of accumulating heat. For mechs with Jam Chance quirks you can just convert it into UAC heat quirks to achieve the same performance as before, just you know, actually consistent so that they're a practical weapon system

I was seriously hoping to see this done with the Executioner-C SO8 where they just gave it a 100% UAC jam chance reduction and saw how it played out from a balance perspective and if it went well, would put some effort into overhauling UAC's in general.

Edited by Krovakon, 15 February 2022 - 02:05 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

im seeing in the Future the Treads ...Please nerf the Autocannons ...High DPS and Damage with High range , its rare im goes outer House without 2x UAC5 and with 4xUAC5 in Chainfire a Jam is rare

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 15 February 2022 - 02:38 AM.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

To UAC5 or not to UAC5, but will we receive the roadmap is the question!

Once upon a time - roadmap

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 15 February 2022 - 03:43 AM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

The AC5 is the worst autocannon. Its cooldown is too short and front damage too low to be a fire+twist brawling weapon, you can’t boat enough to get a scary alpha. At the same time, its DPS/ton is worse than the AC2 so if you go for dps boating AC2s is better. AC5 is also in direct competition with RACS that wins the dps/ton by a huge margin. If your build does end up using AC5 it is always a necessary compromise, because you just could fit RAC/AC2/UAC5/AC10.

AC5 needs its dps/ton increased. The only thing it can be is AC2’s bigger brother that offers more alpha for more crit slots, less range, and less velocity at a similar dps/ton.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 February 2022 - 08:13 PM, said:

I mean, what would get broken if UAC/5 also got that?

I dunno if it would be broken or not, but I was just going off the logic that the AC/10 vs UAC/10 dynamic where the former has a slightly faster baseline cooldown.

And the UAC/5 seems to be in a better state than its legacy counterpart anyways, so if it did get buffed it should probably be a smaller one than the AC/5 and LB/5 get.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

Ladies and gentlemen, make this into a roadmap-discussion and give your AC/UAC-Input to the Cauldron please.

Only a roadmap will allow for an educated guess about what we should allow ourselves to expect for MWOs future over the next couple of months - and with close to all chassis being quirked by february, the need for engineer-related content will rise.

Be vocal about it and do not get too occupied with the number's tweaking we became appeased with over the last 12months, no matter how fresh the recent quirk-overhauls done by the community / cauldron make the current gameplay.

[KaptinOrk]

ShiverMeRivets, on 15 February 2022 - 03:58 AM, said:

The AC5 is the worst autocannon. Its cooldown is too short and front damage too low to be a fire+twist brawling weapon, you can’t boat enough to get a scary alpha. At the same time, its DPS/ton is worse than the AC2 so if you go for dps boating AC2s is better. AC5 is also in direct competition with RACS that wins the dps/ton by a huge margin. If your build does end up using AC5 it is always a necessary compromise, because you just could fit RAC/AC2/UAC5/AC10.

AC5 needs its dps/ton increased. The only thing it can be is AC2’s bigger brother that offers more alpha for more crit slots, less range, and less velocity at a similar dps/ton.

The AC/5 has sucked since it was just "The Autocannon" back in the 1980s, so the AC/5 being bad in MWO is par for the course. I like them, but I've always felt that they needed a slightly faster ROF and maybe a little more velocity.

[LordNothing]

Krovakon, on 15 February 2022 - 02:02 AM, said:

I'd honestly rather see them remove jam chance on UAC's and massively up the heat per shot so that the theoretical DPS remains the same. Now you have a ballistic system that lights/mediums can actually get value out of without them breaking the game by heavies/assaults boating them due to the massive heat generated compared to the standard versions. You can't just bring a single UAC (other than UAC20's) on mechs because they're so obscenely inconsistent, even with -40% jam quirks you can still jam three times in a row and it feels so awful because that's your ONLY weapon system (or primary weapon system in a heavy/assault). This turns the standard autocannons into weapons aimed at heavy/assault mechs since they can be boated and UAC's for lighter mechs since you can't boat them due to heat limitations which light mechs wont be bothered by due to them only being able to fit a single UAC and the ammo needed for it without any other weapons capable of accumulating heat. For mechs with Jam Chance quirks you can just convert it into UAC heat quirks to achieve the same performance as before, just you know, actually consistent so that they're a practical weapon system

I was seriously hoping to see this done with the Executioner-C SO8 where they just gave it a 100% UAC jam chance reduction and saw how it played out from a balance perspective and if it went well, would put some effort into overhauling UAC's in general.

yea id like to see a more deterministic mechanic at play. the jam mechanic seems a poor way to achieve the surge damage role they have it shoehorned into. i have a feeling the uac5 was more of a kludge. it worked fine for the 5 when it was the only uac in the game (and back when you could at most carry 3 or 4 of them). but when you tried to do the same thing with the cuac2 and the cuac20, and later the rest, it really showed the mechanic's lack of versatility.

problem is you start overhauling the uac mechanics you are in for far reaching changes, which may be beyond the cauldron's capabilities (i don't delude myself into thinking pgi would do it). removal of jams and more heat might be all they can do with it. every uac jam reduction quirk will need to be replaced, the uac jam reduction nodes will need to be replaced with something else, and others i haven't considered.

[panzer1b]

I dont know, the LB5 and standard AC5 do need buffs (very rare to see these 2 weapons on anything even remotely competitive), but the UAC5 is actually a very strong choice, a quad of those with good aim gives me personally better results then the 2xUAC5+2xUAC10 builds simply due to the better range and higher velocity (not to mention lack of mismatched velocities). Doesnt get as much raw dmg (and it is inferior in a full brawl), but the damage it does is much more useful just like the difference between a MPL and ERML due to burn time, MPL does more efficient damage.

As for the 2 class cannons, i do see the point here since the 5 class fires too rapidly to really twist (unliuke the 10 class), so both are essentially staredown DPS weapons with the 5s just doing more upfront dmg (they hit harder but have less raw DPS/ton). Generally id rather have 5 2s then 4 5s, but it depends on the mech and UAC2s have much more punishing jams then 5s so perhaps they balance out.

And one thing to add, i hope they dont buff the laser boats much this patch, as lasers are already some of the strongest weapons meta wise right now (at least outside of ultra top comp tier where PPFLD still reigns supreme for trading). Maybe eim biased, but whenever i have a bad day and cant seem to do much i switch over to clam laser vomit (mostly HBR/TBR as those 2 mechs have ECM for QP reasons and can both carry some truly scary loadouts that both do high 60s or more in dmg). Those 2 heavys are so strong right now that i cant even justify assaults when the heavy as identical alpha strike, a few less DHS (which only hurt it in sustained DPS staredowns that a laserboat shouldnt really engage in anyway), and move a good deal faster with the TBR having optional JJs. While there is some debate as to what works and what doesnt, i see so many cLPLs everywhere (and with a 1s burntime, good range, and good dmg), that there isnt much else worth running but 2LPL+6ERML on a timby and either the 2HLL+5ERML or 2LPL+5ERML HBR builds. Only thing that assaults can do well that heavys simply lack tonnage for is ERLL spam, a tactic that is already arguably inferior to mid range vomit on the vast majority of maps.

Edited by panzer1b, 15 February 2022 - 10:42 AM.

[Curccu]

foamyesque, on 14 February 2022 - 03:28 PM, said:

Honestly, I might look into dropping the /2 DPS and only somewhat improving the 5s, as opposed to purely buffing the 5.

In particular, the single-shot AC/5s have an interesting use in delivering fairly substantial pinpoint damage at reasonably long range, along the lines of an ERPPC (with less heat and faster cycling) or a light gauss rifle (with no charge time and faster cycling).

I've seen a number of 3x AC/5 2x ERPPC loadouts out there as surprisingly effective snipers.

I'm running Bowsers 4xAC5+3PPC Fafnir myself sometimes and it's pretty nice. but I'm not running 6xAC5 or 4xAC5 blackwidow anymore because those doesn't seem to be that good anymore.

AC5 and standard/heavy PPC actually syncs very well 1500 and 1400 if there isn't any quirks to mess it up like in that fafnir , same with optimal range.

[Curccu]

KaptinOrk, on 15 February 2022 - 08:09 AM, said:

The AC/5 has sucked since it was just "The Autocannon" back in the 1980s, so the AC/5 being bad in MWO is par for the course. I like them, but I've always felt that they needed a slightly faster ROF and maybe a little more velocity.

Pretty much that, Mauler with 5-6xAC5 was very comp worthy at some point because ok velocity, range and CD quirks.

edit: Now MX90 is just pure rare spawn, I don't think I have seen one in months.. if not Years.

Edited by Curccu, 15 February 2022 - 10:52 AM.

[LordNothing]

i was trying to figure out how much dps the uacs actually have, because any stats page has them listed with their single tap performance only. typical usage is you double tap unless you are in a situation where you are trying not to jam. or if you are boating you are just going to spam them and a single jam doesnt really stop that. so what i did was tried to figure out the double tap dps (assuming no jams) and the jammed dps (what the dps would be if it jammed every shot) separately. then i use the jam chance to figure out what percentage will be jammed shots and what will be doubletapped shots. this gives me a number which more accurately represents the true dps of the system. i also divided that by the single tap dps to try and figure the actual multiplier and it turns out the actual multiplier is closer to 1.74 (+/- 0.05) and not the flat 2 that everyone just assumes.

Weapon...Dmg...CD.....DPS....JamChance..JamTime...DTDps...JDps...TrueDps...StRatio
Uac2........2........0.72....2.78....0.14...............2.50..........5.56.......0.62.....4.86.........1.75
Uac5........5........1.66....3.01....0.15...............6.00..........6.02.......0.65.....5.22.........1.73
Uac10......10......2.50....4.00....0.15...............7.50..........8.00.......1.00.....6.95.........1.74
Uac20......20......4.00....5.00....0.14...............6.00.........10.00......2.00.....8.88.........1.78
Cuac2......2........0.72....2.78....0.16...............2.75..........5.56.......0.58.....4.76.........1.71
Cuac5......5........1.66....3.01....0.17...............6.50..........6.02.......0.61.....5.10.........1.69
Cuac10....10......2.50....4.00....0.17...............8.00..........8.00.......0.95.....6.80.........1.70
Cuac20....20......4.00....5.00....0.16...............6.50.........10.00......1.90.....8.70.........1.74

idk why tables are so hard to post. anyway some caveats. im not sure what the minimum delay between taps is. that would need to be added to the cd for a better DTdps calculation, im just using the naive 2x dps for that. the difference is likely somewhere between a game tick and human reaction time. this would make the dps numbers lower than they appear.

im also not sure if the jam time is in addition to the cd or if the jam clear time is used in place of the cd, i assumed the former because thats what it feels like in game. seems after the jam indicator goes away, you still cant fire and have to wait a cd.

also for guns with burst, i did not account for the time required for those to complete, those would actually slow the weapon down, increase cd and reduce dps numbers. i think that is something like numFiring-1*volleydelay. i didnt include that because i didnt think about it until now. maybe il do some cleanup later. and i probibly should because the volly time for the cuac20 is like a third of a second. thats got to hurt. im also not sure if cd starts with the first round or the last.

i also noticed that the is uac5 has a different volley delay than the others (all other uacs have a delay of 0.11, but the is uac5 has 0.5). this number either isnt used in that case, or it is also used as the delay between salvos. im assuming the former unless i know otherwise (doesnt feel like the game is making me wait half a second for a double tap).

recomputed for burst delays, possibly even correctly. the volley time is added to the cooldown for all computations, it may or may not apply to a single tap scenario, like if the cd starts at the first round and the volley occurs concurrently. however for a double tap scenario it imposes a delay between your first and second tap. in a jam scenario, you have to fire a second salvo before a jam can occur, and that would happen after the volley. so it might be accurate for a button spam scenario. the uac20 is also a weapon you tend to wait a second or two for your second tap, because you need to manage heat, thats not counted.

Weapon...numFiring...Volley Delay..Volley Time..DPS....DtDps...Jdps...TruDps...StRatio
Uac2.......1..................0.11...............0.00.............2.78.....5.56......0.62....4.86......1.75
Uac5.......1..................0.50...............0.00.............3.01.....6.02......0.65....5.22......1.73
Uac10.....2..................0.11...............0.11.............3.83.....7.66......0.99....6.66......1.74
Uac20.....3..................0.11...............0.22.............4.74.....9.48......1.96....8.43......1.78
Cuac2.....1..................0.11...............0.00.............2.78.....5.56......0.58....4.76......1.71
Cuac5.....2..................0.11...............0.11.............2.82.....5.65......0.60....4.79......1.70
Cuac10...3..................0.11...............0.22.............3.68.....7.35......0.93....6.26......1.70
Cuac20...4..................0.11...............0.33.............4.62.....9.24......1.85....8.06......1.74

anyway that actually tightened up the singletap ratio, which was unexpected. perhaps 1.75 was the target damage multiplier for uacs.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 February 2022 - 12:39 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Curccu, on 15 February 2022 - 10:48 AM, said:

Pretty much that, Mauler with 5-6xAC5 was very comp worthy at some point because ok velocity, range and CD quirks.

edit: Now MX90 is just pure rare spawn, I don't think I have seen one in months.. if not Years.

It would need to make 6 AC5s work without too much sacrifice to be a good take.
https://mwo.nav-alph...9a1cf3_MAL-MX90

Edit: Actually, it can do some decent 6 UAC2 or 2 RAC5 4 AC2 builds that can pump up some good DPS.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 15 February 2022 - 11:52 AM.

[Curccu]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2022 - 11:46 AM, said:

It would need to make 6 AC5s work without too much sacrifice to be a good take.
https://mwo.nav-alph...9a1cf3_MAL-MX90

Edit: Actually, it can do some decent 6 UAC2 or 2 RAC5 4 AC2 builds that can pump up some good DPS.

We used 5xAC5 on that mech back in the day but If I remember correctly black spikes used 6xAC5 and it was piloted by Proton...

I sometimes use 3xrac2 and 3xAC2 on FP. Can't fit 2x same fit Anni in deck eez but 2x Mauler is more doable

Edited by Curccu, 15 February 2022 - 11:59 AM.

[w0qj]

Annihilator ANH-2A can only take 5x AC5 (that's what the RJF Russian Clan Jade Falcon used on us!) without compromise.
~IS can fire 5x AC5 without Ghost Heat
~50kph LE300 max engine, 10ton ammo, etc.
~Bumping this to 6x AC5 involves too much compromise (Ghost Heat, limited ammo, no DHS, slower engine, etc.)

Dire Wolf DWF UV can only take 6x AC5, but again too much compromise (Ghost Heat, limited ammo, no DHS, etc.)
~Clan can fire 4x AC5 without Ghost Heat
~So if Dire Wolf with 6x AC5 can only fire in 2 volleys, then might as well use UAC5 instead. Or just stick with 8x UAC2.

In short, nothing in MWO can equip 6x AC5 without significant compromises!

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2022 - 11:46 AM, said:

It would need to make 6 AC5s work without too much sacrifice to be a good take.

[Gas Guzzler]

Curccu, on 15 February 2022 - 11:57 AM, said:

We used 5xAC5 on that mech back in the day but If I remember correctly black spikes used 6xAC5 and it was piloted by Proton...

I sometimes use 3xrac2 and 3xAC2 on FP. Can't fit 2x same fit Anni in deck eez but 2x Mauler is more doable

Yeah I remember using 5 AC5 for sure. 6 can work at 44 kph as demonstrated. Out of 5 I rate it 3.6, not great, not terrible.

w0qj, on 15 February 2022 - 12:00 PM, said:

~IS can fire 5x AC5 without Ghost Heat

Yeah but the 6th one gives you, 0.53 extra heat... meh.

The larger concerns are as mentioned, only 1225 damage worth of ammo, and 44.1 kph.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 15 February 2022 - 12:04 PM.

[w0qj]

If there is a new Annihilator Hero mech with total 6x ballistic hardpoints in LT/RT (same style as MAL-MX90), and a few energy hardpoints in both arms, I would jump at it!!

[LordNothing]

some theory crafting. assuming were taking the jams out, ive redone the uacs as burst weapons, with the uac2 getting a longer burst to make it a true surge damage weapon.

trying to hit the dps values ive posted earlier. by baking the jam mechanic into the dps numbers i hope to get dps numbers closer to the current values. keep in mind that im trying to get it away from being a dps weapon. i think the ac (or better yet the lb) should be the true dps option.

some liberties with burst size were also made for flavor. i gave the 20 an extra shell in its burst, thats a lot of damage for a 2/3-round burst. clans also get the usual +1 burst size. in moist cases the burst size is actually shorter than a full doubletap cycle of the current weapon. it might be a good idea to extend the bursts on uacs, and reduce (or eliminate) the bursts on the cacs.

Weapon.....Damage...Cooldown....DPS.....BurstSize....Note
uac2b........8...............1.65.............4.85......4.................four 2-damage shells
uac5b.......10..............1.90.............5.26......2.................two 5-damage shells
uac10b.....20..............3.00.............6.67......2.................two 10-damage shells
uac20b.....40..............4.75.............8.42......3.................three 13.33-damage shells
cuac2b......6...............1.30.............4.62......3.................three 2-damage shells
cuac5b.....10..............2.00.............5.00......3.................three 3.33-dammage shells
cuac10b...20..............3.20.............6.25......3.................three 6.66-damage shells
cuac20b...40..............4.95.............8.08......4.................four 10-damage shells

anyway this puts the uac into a pure upfront surge damage role. i think the ac should be a range+ppfld role and the lb a cold+dps role. my black widow build i used to use in fp a lot used the 3x max range of the is-lb2, made taking out the damaged guys in the rear a piece of cake. i dont really think that benefits a spread weapon as much as a ppfld weapon (though it did net me a lot of cheap kills).

[Extra Guac]

The IS AC2 should occupy 2 or 3 slots - it never made any sense that it's only 1 slot.

LB5 needs buffs.

AC5 & AC10 need buffs.

IS ERLL needs nerfs - or, the cERLL ghost heat limit should be raised to 3. IS is completely dominating the ERLL game these days.

Orions need buffs - give them even more armor, like they did with the Atlas.

Zeus needs armor quirks, not structure.

WHM-IIC needs minor armor buffs, to compensate for relatively low/bad weapon mounts.

Highlanders (clan and IS) need more buffs. They're unplayable except for rare/weird situations.

Novas need buffs.

Sunspider and Timberwolf need buffs. Both are undergunned for their tonnage.

Jenners need buffs.

[Curccu]

w0qj, on 15 February 2022 - 12:00 PM, said:

Annihilator ANH-2A can only take 5x AC5 (that's what the RJF Russian Clan Jade Falcon used on us!) without compromise.
~IS can fire 5x AC5 without Ghost Heat
~50kph LE300 max engine, 10ton ammo, etc.
~Bumping this to 6x AC5 involves too much compromise (Ghost Heat, limited ammo, no DHS, slower engine, etc.)

In short, nothing in MWO can equip 6x AC5 without significant compromises!

ANH-2A 6xAC5, No compromises
Compromises:?
-Ghost heat of AC5 6th AC5 is irrelevant amount, can be ignored eez. (alpha heat 5.9+0.53 ghost heat)
-1225 damage potential + ammo nodes in skilltree will add some ammo, should be enough. How often you break ~1500 dmg?
- Yes DHS
- Max engine