265 replies to this topic

[Gasboy]

Haipyng, on 07 October 2022 - 09:21 AM, said:

It is frustrating when you are moving at 130KPH and someone is so good they hit you with gauss every time they fire as you are running across a field, weaving and twisting. Can someone be that good? I guess? It's not the norm at all however.

Twisting works great against lasers, not so much against pinpoint damage like a gauss rifle. It depends on the mech you're in too. Humanoid? Harder to hit the opposite torso, and CT, if they're side on to you. Bulbous with a protruding CT? That's going to eat damage even if you twist.

I assure you skilled players can hit you, even fast mechs, when they have distance. If they're hitting you as you run around their feet, with gauss? That's less likely.

Curccu, on 07 October 2022 - 11:17 AM, said:

it depends how much that weaving and twisting affects your movement pattern from shooters point of view, but hitting same component constantly is usually something that even most skilled players cannot do against that fast mechs.

All depends on the geometry of the mech. Some are much easier to hit than others, when you're looking for specific locations.

[martian]

Haipyng, on 07 October 2022 - 09:21 AM, said:

It is frustrating when you are moving at 130KPH and someone is so good they hit you with gauss every time they fire as you are running across a field, weaving and twisting. Can someone be that good? I guess? It's not the norm at all however.

The wall hack is the worst tactically. They know where you are going to pop up or out of before you do. I am talking way across the map, not near a UAV. I've been on teams where we did something off the wall and went right to the edge of the map on Polar while advancing to go around and flank, sticking to the valleys. Their entire team was waiting in a great ambush spot at the edge of that map. I guess they could have had a stealth scout see us and shadow us. I guess they could have all been fast mechs that could reposition that fast? Seems far more likely someone saw what was up from the beginning.

Both situations are difficult to judge without screenshots or videos.

[Knownswift]

When you're really far away from someone you are moving slower according their perspective.

Zig zag in open zimbabwe has never worked well.

[Haipyng]

Haipyng, on 07 October 2022 - 09:21 AM, said:

Well put! The ambiguity is supported to protect PGI's investment. Cheats give advantages but they don't generally allow one person to dominate a match because of the game mechanics.

It is frustrating when you are moving at 130KPH and someone is so good they hit you with gauss every time they fire as you are running across a field, weaving and twisting. Can someone be that good? I guess? It's not the norm at all however.

The wall hack is the worst tactically. They know where you are going to pop up or out of before you do. I am talking way across the map, not near a UAV. I've been on teams where we did something off the wall and went right to the edge of the map on Polar while advancing to go around and flank, sticking to the valleys. Their entire team was waiting in a great ambush spot at the edge of that map. I guess they could have had a stealth scout see us and shadow us. I guess they could have all been fast mechs that could reposition that fast? Seems far more likely someone saw what was up from the beginning.

That's the thing. The doubt benefits the developer, because it means they are spending nothing to mitigate the cheating. No VAC, no Easy Anti-Cheat. It benefits the cheater because, "there are no cheats for MWO" and PGI "monitors" for cheating without specifying what they monitor with? Cheaters can cheat and people don't bother reporting the repeat spectacular shots, or the incredible psychic tactical moves because cheating doesn't exist.

This is the most open discussion on the MWO official forums I have seen about it ever and it hasn't been locked yet.

Curccu, on 07 October 2022 - 11:17 AM, said:

it depends how much that weaving and twisting affects your movement pattern from shooters point of view, but hitting same component constantly is usually something that even most skilled players cannot do against that fast mechs.

Gasboy, on 07 October 2022 - 12:39 PM, said:

Twisting works great against lasers, not so much against pinpoint damage like a gauss rifle. It depends on the mech you're in too. Humanoid? Harder to hit the opposite torso, and CT, if they're side on to you. Bulbous with a protruding CT? That's going to eat damage even if you twist.

I assure you skilled players can hit you, even fast mechs, when they have distance. If they're hitting you as you run around their feet, with gauss? That's less likely.



All depends on the geometry of the mech. Some are much easier to hit than others, when you're looking for specific locations.

You all missed the point. That cheating in MWO is ambiguous. It's not easy to point at something in game and call it with certainty a cheat.

Most people do not record all their games for posterity, (unless you Twitch) so when you want video evidence, you don't have it. Even then as Nightbird said, you don't get anything from a perspective that gives you more information. Just from the perspective you had.

After doing a little bit of research online I feel certain it exists in MWO. Plenty of material out there. I wonder if the vehement deniers are worried that they might crack down on cheats?

Cheating defeats the purpose of playing a game, whether it is PVE or PVP. You are challenging yourself to see how good you are. If you are using cheats, it is meaningless. In PVP games you are also pissing on someone else's experience and enjoyment of the game.

[Curccu]

Gasboy, on 07 October 2022 - 12:39 PM, said:

I assure you skilled players can hit you, even fast mechs, when they have distance. If they're hitting you as you run around their feet, with gauss? That's less likely.

It's actually pretty easy to hit close by targets if they just run around you with gauss

Gasboy, on 07 October 2022 - 12:39 PM, said:

All depends on the geometry of the mech. Some are much easier to hit than others, when you're looking for specific locations.

OFC it depends on geometry but still no one has enough skill to hit 130kph mech (most mechs going this fast are quite small) into same location with gauss constantly if target tries to do any kind of evading maneuvers.

Haipyng, on 08 October 2022 - 10:21 AM, said:

You all missed the point. That cheating in MWO is ambiguous. It's not easy to point at something in game and call it with certainty a cheat.

Depends how cheater uses those, is he good at masking his doings or use them plainly. Some players I have seen use aimbot clearly and they have been banned soon after few reports.

Haipyng, on 08 October 2022 - 10:21 AM, said:

Most people do not record all their games for posterity, (unless you Twitch) so when you want video evidence, you don't have it.

At least Nvidia shadowplay can record up to 20 minutes backwards what already has happened, easy to get weird **** recorded, probably other recording softwares can do same.

Haipyng, on 08 October 2022 - 10:21 AM, said:

After doing a little bit of research online I feel certain it exists in MWO. Plenty of material out there. I wonder if the vehement deniers are worried that they might crack down on cheats?

I haven't seen anyone? deny here that cheats do not exist but they are common, I have never seen them to be commonly used in this game. I don't play much myself nowdays but what I have played, haven't seen anything that would have triggered my alarms.

Haipyng, on 08 October 2022 - 10:21 AM, said:

Cheating defeats the purpose of playing a game, whether it is PVE or PVP. You are challenging yourself to see how good you are. If you are using cheats, it is meaningless. In PVP games you are also pissing on someone else's experience and enjoyment of the game.

Well thats obvious, you gotta ask some cheater the WHY question.

[Meep Meep]

Curccu, on 08 October 2022 - 11:44 AM, said:

Well thats obvious, you gotta ask some cheater the WHY question.

Because they like to win and don't care how it's done. I'm sure there are a few high ranking jarls list players who regularly use hax but since they are not streamers or otherwise in the public view or participate in organized competition no one notices.

[Curccu]

Meep Meep, on 08 October 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:

Because they like to win and don't care how it's done. I'm sure there are a few high ranking jarls list players who regularly use hax but since they are not streamers or otherwise in the public view or participate in organized competition no one notices.

Unless they have some serious brain damage they should understand they are not actually winning if they are using hax..

[Nightbird]

Curccu, on 08 October 2022 - 01:05 PM, said:

Unless they have some serious brain damage they should understand they are not actually winning if they are using hax..

Calling them names isn't going to get them to stop lol. Catching them and banning them does.

[martian]

While you are waiting for the mission to start, you can read these three articles:

• Potential Use Of 3Rd Party Programs
  
• Another Word On Cheat Tools
  
• 64 Accounts Banned For Cheating

Other players were banned for cheating later, some of them were quite "famous".

[Curccu]

Nightbird, on 08 October 2022 - 01:13 PM, said:

Calling them names isn't going to get them to stop lol.

Purpose of my post wasn't to stop them.

[Haipyng]

martian, on 08 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

While you are waiting for the mission to start, you can read these three articles:

• Potential Use Of 3Rd Party Programs
  
• Another Word On Cheat Tools
  
• 64 Accounts Banned For Cheating

Other players were banned for cheating later, some of them were quite "famous".

64 Accounts Banned For Cheating- Yes, that was their first big drive against cheating. I think that was their only big drive. Some more were banned and tapered off. Their name and shame policy should have stuck without the sweep it under the rug mentality that came in after.

Another Word On Cheat Tools- "None of the cheat tools are flawless, neither in their technical implementation or in their individual use by the player. We use a combination of methods to ensure that the conclusion we reach is the correct one." They said as much in a NGNG broadcast around that time too. A combination of methods that does not include any sort of Anti-Cheat system. It was left very nebulous. I suppose you don't want them to know exactly how you are finding them, but the secrecy went along with the draconian method of killing any forum posts about exploits in game. I totally understand not wanting to have actual hacks and exploits posted, but keeping it all under wraps and sweeping it under the rug did not help their credibility and helps cheaters fly under the radar.

[BellatorMonk]

So what that PGI banned a whole 64 players back in 2015.....2015.....2015.

That means NOTHING for the current anti-cheat methods, policies or effectiveness of today...2022....2022...2022. Where are any ban announcements in the last 3 years?

PGI is running this game on a skeleton crew and gives not one **** about controlling cheating or much else. The main focus is getting people to buy mech packages in order to keep the Starbucks deliveries coming and lights on.

[evil kerensky]

thats the rub aint it. they have no automated method of detecting cheats, do they. and the only people who can manually check are too busy with keeping the game alive. so no ones checking, its pure honor system.

[martian]

Haipyng, on 08 October 2022 - 03:37 PM, said:

64 Accounts Banned For Cheating- Yes, that was their first big drive against cheating. I think that was their only big drive. Some more were banned and tapered off. Their name and shame policy should have stuck without the sweep it under the rug mentality that came in after.

Another Word On Cheat Tools- "None of the cheat tools are flawless, neither in their technical implementation or in their individual use by the player. We use a combination of methods to ensure that the conclusion we reach is the correct one." They said as much in a NGNG broadcast around that time too. A combination of methods that does not include any sort of Anti-Cheat system. It was left very nebulous. I suppose you don't want them to know exactly how you are finding them, but the secrecy went along with the draconian method of killing any forum posts about exploits in game. I totally understand not wanting to have actual hacks and exploits posted, but keeping it all under wraps and sweeping it under the rug did not help their credibility and helps cheaters fly under the radar.

BellatorMonk, on 09 October 2022 - 11:48 AM, said:

So what that PGI banned a whole 64 players back in 2015.....2015.....2015.

That means NOTHING for the current anti-cheat methods, policies or effectiveness of today...2022....2022...2022. Where are any ban announcements in the last 3 years?

PGI is running this game on a skeleton crew and gives not one **** about controlling cheating or much else. The main focus is getting people to buy mech packages in order to keep the Starbucks deliveries coming and lights on.

In 2015 PGI told you that in the future there will be no such big lists of the players banned for cheating:

Piranha Games Inc., on 09 October 2022 - 11:48 AM, said:

Please note that any future bans for cheat tool use may not necessarily be announced or presented in the same manner.

It was in the post that I previously linked.

[BellatorMonk]

This isn't helping to reassure anyone that cheating is under control, monitored or that people being caught are even being banned. So in other words, "we are not telling you anything, but believe us when we tell you all is well".

"This is CNN".....

[Escef]

Can anyone here cite an online game that does publicly name all the people they've banned?

As far as I know, PGI's practice of not publishing banned lists is industry standard. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just saying it's the standard.

This idea that since PGI hasn't published any recent bans means the game is full of cheating is bizarre. It's making a claim with nothing to back it up, and then claiming that a lack of evidence is evidence. This is conspiracy theory levels of insane.

[BellatorMonk]

I don't usually research **** for people to lazy to prove their own claims but I tire of of the "I said it, so it must be true and you are just wrong, because I said so and you are a conspiracy nut for saying something negative against my favorite game".

https://www.timesnow...-players/479962

The absence of proof doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that something isn't happening. If you are truly playing this game and can't admit there are people cheating then you really are not playing the game. Is it "widespread"..probably not...is it happening on some scale..yes.

Maybe since I am lazy, can you provide proof NOT listing or confirming cheaters are/have been banned is an "industry standard"? Asking for my Wife who cares greatly...

What more is there to refute or argue about here...?

Edited by BellatorMonk, 09 October 2022 - 05:14 PM.

[Knownswift]

The common practice in my experience has been that cheaters that make it through any protections already in place get dunked in waves and the developer usually doesn't say anything unless they have to.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Ding Toast is Ready, on 09 October 2022 - 05:35 PM, said:

********. You have no common practice in this game. You don't play it.

Never let someone posting under an alt account get under your skin. Or any random person on the internet, for that matter.

He's not wrong, though. PGI handles bans quietly now, and they've determined that telling us how many bans are happening monthly or quarterly or whatever would not be good. Though it would be nice to see a post of "we have become aware of the following hack and are taking steps to remove players who are using it" or something like that.

[Nightbird]

ScrapIron Prime, on 09 October 2022 - 06:06 PM, said:

Never let someone posting under an alt account get under your skin. Or any random person on the internet, for that matter.

He's not wrong, though. PGI handles bans quietly now, and they've determined that telling us how many bans are happening monthly or quarterly or whatever would not be good. Though it would be nice to see a post of "we have become aware of the following hack and are taking steps to remove players who are using it" or something like that.

I don't know how close I can get to the line (forum rules) without crossing it. There are no cheat detection in game. Previous bans are likely based on manual effort - employees that spectate in game (perhaps with additional "wallhack" spectator tools) to manually catch people cheating or watch people who are reported as cheating.

My assumption on there being no cheat detection is because paid cheat writers run their cheats regularly and check to see if those accounts are banned. When a cheat is detected, the version gets updated to avoid detection again in a cat-and-mouse game. In examining MWO's case, there has not been updates for many many years, implying to me there is no systemic detection and those caught are exceptions of people who are outed by friends or exceptionally blatant cheaters, but without death cam features its hard to provide the impossibly high level of evidence PGI requires.