158 replies to this topic

[Mahpsy]

Weeny Machine, on 01 May 2022 - 05:35 AM, said:

That would also be great. Basically, I do not care as long as it gets the campers moving




Ummm...then there would be no point to play light mechs. I mean a streak MRM boat could obliterate them easily

I mean lets say it uses LRM spread if not slightly wider cuz MRM's. 500-600 range would still be difficult since lights are so fast and most maps have lots of cover. Slower projectile speed would also be a limiting factor. And MRM's already have a long CD and streaks would bump it up even more by say 2-3 seconds(don't have the mech lab open to have accurate comparison like lasers vs Heavy Lasers) which would make them shoot carefully and at the right time or get punished type of weapon.

Hell I personally find it hard enough to use streaks as is because cover and ECM is already everywhere. That being said I run BAP and ECM(if able). That and Radar Deprivation is still way too strong to just run a streak boat or hell even a LRM boat properly.

There are many factors to consider but it can be balanced.

[FupDup]

Mahpsy, on 30 April 2022 - 09:04 PM, said:

I was thinking of the context of they home in, but not like our current streaks. Semi guided like lrms. Just no weird dead zone or arc to consider. Maybe missile speed adjustments and definitely more heat and shorter range say like 500ish give or take.

LRMs with no deadzone is exactly what PGI had to avoid with Clan LRMs. Streak MRMs would be the same thing on steroids, just with lower potential range (500m without quirks or skills is still pretty far and it's not like LRMs get to enjoy their full max range outside of rare occasions).

The verdict from me is still a resounding "lolno." With so many guided missiles in the game and canon ones to be added, there's not much design space/clear niche for homebrew designs other than pure power creep (like Streak MRMs).

For missiles in particular, there are a few niches I can think of that aren't filled by canon weapons:

A. Clan midrange direct-fire unguided missiles. Mech Mortars kinda sorta could do that but they would likely have a firing arc like a grenade (allowing IDF with careful aiming) so maybe not.

B. Long-range unguided direct-fire missile for both factions, maybe an unguided variant of the Thunderbolt missile (MW4:Vengeance had this).

C. A non-sucky version of Rocket Launchers (i.e. multiple shots, maybe or maybe not able to carry more ammo). Ideally Rocket Launchers would just get reworked but that does not appear to be happening in the near future.

Edited by FupDup, 01 May 2022 - 08:07 AM.

[Mahpsy]

FupDup, on 01 May 2022 - 07:57 AM, said:

LRMs with no deadzone is exactly what PGI had to avoid with Clan LRMs. Streak MRMs would be the same thing on steroids, just with lower potential range (500m without quirks or skills is still pretty far and it's not like LRMs get to enjoy their full max range outside of rare occasions).

The verdict from me is still a resounding "lolno." With so many guided missiles in the game and canon ones to be added, there's not much design space/clear niche for homebrew designs other than pure power creep (like Streak MRMs).

For missiles in particular, there are a few niches I can think of that aren't filled by canon weapons:

A. Clan midrange direct-fire unguided missiles. Mech Mortars kinda sorta could do that but they would likely have a firing arc like a grenade (allowing IDF with careful aiming) so maybe not.

B. Long-range unguided direct-fire missile for both factions, maybe an unguided variant of the Thunderbolt missile (MW4:Vengeance had this).

C. A non-sucky version of Rocket Launchers (i.e. multiple shots, maybe or maybe not able to carry more ammo). Ideally Rocket Launchers would just get reworked but that does not appear to be happening in the near future.

If you read my post above there are many ways to balance weapon systems that would stop any sort of homing weapon that could potentially be op. But because everything is theoretical it's easy to say no it tracks there for it's op.

Not the same thing but e.x. Back in beta and early release I made multiple posts about light mechs and even medium mechs needing ammo buffs to run their hard points more effectivly.

Every single reply I got was a resounding " LOL no it would be op, just don't play those mechs like that."

Fast forward to now PGI is FINALLY bringing them in. My Streak/lrm(not so much for lrm cuz ecm/radar dep) Locust is now a thing I can play to a reasonable level.

That being said (not specifically Streak MRM's but any weird "niche" weapon system) could have a home on any mech with barely playable hardpoints.

[LordNothing]

cant help but think streak mrms arent a thing for a reason. streak lrms do exist for clans. they weigh as much as is lerms, but they use streak guidance on a flat trajectory and have no minimum range and no dumbfire. i think id also make them volley fire instead of stream so that they are better at getting through ams than other clan missile systems. i figure they would be a lot more practical than clan lerms for midrange skirmishing. the biggest problem is they will be forever hitting terrain so maybe use with jump jets or from high positions.

you can then give is mmls, which would be the is equivalent to atms. they would only have 2 stages instead of the 3 atms have. the short range get srm stats and the long range get lrm stats.

i would also like to see everyone get inferno ssrms. most of these missile systems would not require retrofits. unlike things like mech mortars and arrow iv. the latter, because it requires crit splitting, would probibly be best implemented as fixed equipment on select mechs. you could make a mech pack with the cplt-c3 and others. as well other mechs with high value weapons like hag40s as fixed. this would greatly confine the scope of retrofits. if the pack sells well, the proceeds can then be used to fund additional retrofits and the weapons then can be unlocked and purchased for other mechs. otherwise the mechs go up for cbills and everyone can buy them after the early adopters period.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 May 2022 - 08:57 AM.

[caravann]

A single rocket for the rocket launcher. It doesn't matter where you hit a mech with rockets, it will only destroy a side torso at best.
But maybe that's all you'll need. A very niche weapon since light mechs can't carry enough to make use of them and heavier mechs will reduce their max damage.
We already have restockable rocketlaunchers: MRM. It just make rockets not worth using since a single shot MRM40 = RL20
Backshots never work in practice against heavy and assault unless it's a light mech with lasers. Rockets never critical hit in my experience and the chances are higher to find a chicken's tooth.

Rockets would penalties players who meta-max mechs too much because the rocket is countered by AMS.
The extra 1 ton from AMS is equal of an entire bin with ammo or an even bigger gun or armor. Space is another thing, some mechs are meta-maxed that they'll won't have space for an AMS.

Why is this a concern? The case that not all mechs have an ECM or the fact that mechs with ECM are immune to tracking means that the last defense for mechs is AMS. But to counter the ECM-SPAM you have rockets to counter mechs who meta-max their mechs with only ECM and NO atm.

There already exist medium ranged tracking missiles:ATM , Streak MRM is to attribute tracking to rockets.

MRM is already powerful, stack a bushwacker with MRM10's and see for yourself how a tight formation of MRMs is going to break the game since you have a whole bunch of MRMs tracking the target, hitting the target and create critical hits.

[LordNothing]

i have my own theories about how to fix the rocket launcher. the big thing is the damage potential of the system needs to come up to make it worth the tonnage (things being proportional that means more damage per rocket), but in a way that doesn't increase the trolliness. rockets rapid fire one at a time until you run out, release the trigger, or get shut down (you can use any remaining rockets later). keep the ghost heat pretty restrictive. you can dump the entire launcher without tripping it up, but fire 2 or 3 might be problematic, and firing a large number will shut you down. however you can still dump a lot of damage in a short time so it still fills the surge damage niche.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 01 May 2022 - 07:57 AM, said:

LRMs with no deadzone is exactly what PGI had to avoid with Clan LRMs. Streak MRMs would be the same thing on steroids, just with lower potential range (500m without quirks or skills is still pretty far and it's not like LRMs get to enjoy their full max range outside of rare occasions).

The verdict from me is still a resounding "lolno." With so many guided missiles in the game and canon ones to be added, there's not much design space/clear niche for homebrew designs other than pure power creep (like Streak MRMs).

Honestly I think the main reason why all of this is a lolno is because lock-on missiles need a serious rework. If they could copy/pasta MW4 missile mechanics over to MWO, I wouldn't be against lock-on MRMs, in fact one of the MW4 mods did just that.

TBH, I would love to see SRMs get lock-on as well. Leave the unguided missiles to rockets or something. The thunderbolts from MW4 were interesting but unguided missiles have their own limitations that they should be treated as niche weapons.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 May 2022 - 10:29 AM.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 May 2022 - 10:26 AM, said:

Honestly I think the main reason why all of this is a lolno is because lock-on missiles need a serious rework. If they could copy/pasta MW4 missile mechanics over to MWO, I wouldn't be against lock-on MRMs, in fact one of the MW4 mods did just that.

MW4 had tracking MRMs in the Clan mech pack (where Streak MRMs first appeared that I know of). You didn't need a mod for it.

IIRC, MW4: Mercs let you use the weapons from the IS/Clan packs for free but not the actual mechs until MekTek made those packs a baseline part of the game.

Edited by FupDup, 01 May 2022 - 10:36 AM.

[Mahpsy]

FupDup, on 01 May 2022 - 10:33 AM, said:

MW4 had tracking MRMs in the Clan mech pack (where Streak MRMs first appeared that I know of). You didn't need a mod for it.

IIRC, MW4: Mercs let you use the weapons from the IS/Clan packs for free but not the actual mechs until MekTek made those packs a baseline part of the game.

Honestly I didn't even know this expansion existed. I thought they just went from 4 Vengeance to 4 Mercenaries. But I was young and wasn't the one buying the games.

[FupDup]

Mahpsy, on 01 May 2022 - 11:10 AM, said:

Honestly I didn't even know this expansion existed. I thought they just went from 4 Vengeance to 4 Mercenaries. But I was young and wasn't the one buying the games.

The progression was Vengeance -> Black Knight -> Mercenaries in terms of main games/campaigns.

There were also two mech packs you could buy to get 4 mechs, 1 weapon, and 1 equipment per faction (IS pack and Clan pack) that applied to all 3 main games. Mercs let you use the guns and equipment but not the mechs for free, at least not until MekTek starting modding the game.

And just like MWO mech packs, the MW4 mech packs didn't include any lights.

Edited by FupDup, 01 May 2022 - 12:09 PM.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 01 May 2022 - 10:33 AM, said:

MW4 had tracking MRMs in the Clan mech pack (where Streak MRMs first appeared that I know of). You didn't need a mod for it.

IIRC, MW4: Mercs let you use the weapons from the IS/Clan packs for free but not the actual mechs until MekTek made those packs a baseline part of the game.

think it was a crosshair chasing mechanic. or maybe that was living legends. honestly mrms are supposed to be the dumbest possible missile possibly second only to rocket launchers. even srms are supposed to have some basic guidance, they dont in any mechwarrior game (and im ok with that).

Edited by LordNothing, 01 May 2022 - 02:01 PM.

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 01 May 2022 - 01:49 PM, said:

think it was a crosshair chasing mechanic (though i could be confusing mwll with mw4 again). or maybe that was living legends. honestly mrms are supposed to be the dumbest possible missile possibly second only to rocket launchers. even srms are supposed to have guidence, they dont in any mechwarrior game.

You're thinking of MWLL. MW4's SSRMs and SMRMs would home in on the location you aimed at when you fired them, and didn't care where you aimed after they were in flight.

MW3's SRMs did have guidance and I think their MRMs did too (haven't played it in ages).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 01 May 2022 - 10:33 AM, said:

MW4 had tracking MRMs in the Clan mech pack (where Streak MRMs first appeared that I know of). You didn't need a mod for it.

IIRC, MW4: Mercs let you use the weapons from the IS/Clan packs for free but not the actual mechs until MekTek made those packs a baseline part of the game.

I always forget about those, however they re-used the Streak SRM code, where-as the modded version used LRM code so they could have an arc and hit out to 700m (which was more medium range in that game, as that was large laser and heavy gauss territory).

FupDup, on 01 May 2022 - 01:54 PM, said:

You're thinking of MWLL. MW4's SSRMs and SMRMs would home in on the location you aimed at when you fired them, and didn't care where you aimed after they were in flight.

This was true of other missiles as well, but other missiles could be fired while not aimed on a location which would cause them to be more inaccurate. The funniest part was aiming at a destroyed leg triggered your missiles going crazy.

[Mahpsy]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 May 2022 - 10:26 AM, said:

Honestly I think the main reason why all of this is a lolno is because lock-on missiles need a serious rework. If they could copy/pasta MW4 missile mechanics over to MWO, I wouldn't be against lock-on MRMs, in fact one of the MW4 mods did just that.

TBH, I would love to see SRMs get lock-on as well. Leave the unguided missiles to rockets or something. The thunderbolts from MW4 were interesting but unguided missiles have their own limitations that they should be treated as niche weapons.

Imo changing the way any sort of lock-on missiles should be put on the back burner so the devs can finally rework the way sensors and lock on mechanics work.

After years of playing I've come to the conclusion that games are either,

A. No one has ECM and are spotted way too easily at almost any range.

B. There is way too much ECM and trying to run any sort of missiles even with a Tag or NARC way too difficult making most of your match firing at vanishing targets even with a dedicated spotter. Radar Deprivation is a big factor in this too.

Because of this there is almost no way to stop a nascar situation aside from just going left and not right or vise versa. LRM's and ATM's should be there as a tool to punish units moving out in the open. But going back to ECM and Radar Deprivation it makes it very improbable for an LRM boat to reliably get shots out because of the ECM bubble and no players willingness to hard lock with a tag to a charging team, or the NARC player who landed multiple shots but because half the team has ECM it didn't help anything.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mahpsy, on 03 May 2022 - 12:31 PM, said:

Imo changing the way any sort of lock-on missiles should be put on the back burner so the devs can finally rework the way sensors and lock on mechanics work.

You can't rework lock-on missiles without touching sensors and/or lock-on mechanics.

[w0qj]

But MWO can consider this:

1. Mechs (like Crusader!) with built-in Active Probe quirk, and user can still add 1x Beagle Active Probe into mech.
2x BAP = greater sensor range = faster lock-on, right?

2. Let users equip up to 2x Beagle Active Probe onto certain MWO predetermined mechs.
Sort of like a Bloodhound Active Probe...

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 May 2022 - 05:39 PM, said:

You can't rework lock-on missiles without touching sensors and/or lock-on mechanics.

[VectorStrike]

New weapons and equipment? Hell yeah!

[TheArisen]

I suppose this should be expected but the poll has been very positive about adding new weapons and equipment so far.
https://mwomercs.com...equipment-poll/

[w0qj]

+1
Just voted in this Poll... thanks for your heads-up!

TheArisen, on 05 May 2022 - 04:10 PM, said:

I suppose this should be expected but the poll has been very positive about adding new weapons and equipment so far.
https://mwomercs.com...equipment-poll/

[Lajur Kas]

LordNothing, on 01 May 2022 - 09:35 AM, said:

i have my own theories about how to fix the rocket launcher. the big thing is the damage potential of the system needs to come up to make it worth the tonnage (things being proportional that means more damage per rocket), but in a way that doesn't increase the trolliness. rockets rapid fire one at a time until you run out, release the trigger, or get shut down (you can use any remaining rockets later). keep the ghost heat pretty restrictive. you can dump the entire launcher without tripping it up, but fire 2 or 3 might be problematic, and firing a large number will shut you down. however you can still dump a lot of damage in a short time so it still fills the surge damage niche.

I like it!

Even if it were simply five rockets salvos that gave you 1, 2, 3, or 4 shots depending on the launcher size would be a whole new level of flexible.