80 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

Vonbach, on 16 June 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:

Light pilot detected.

a. I don't have a weight class specialty and lights are my least-played class
https://leaderboard....h?u=pattonesque

b. you play lights more than I do, percentage-wise
https://leaderboard....earch?u=Vonbach

c. just shoot the light dude

Meep Meep, on 16 June 2022 - 02:03 PM, said:

They rolled out mg/hmg nerfs a patch or so ago. Both had their crit multi reduced to make them more damage dealers than crit farmers. That leaves lmg as the crit farming class.

What new nerfs are you talking about?

ah you know, that's probably what I'm thinking about. I know soon a few MG lights will have reduced ammo bonuses.

Edited by pattonesque, 16 June 2022 - 02:10 PM.

[Meep Meep]

pattonesque, on 16 June 2022 - 02:09 PM, said:

ah you know, that's probably what I'm thinking about. I know soon a few MG lights will have reduced ammo bonuses.

Hmm wonder which ones? The 20 tonners need that bonus to have enough ammo on viable fits.

[Meep Meep]

Giggity. Lmg getting a nice boost to range(360 optimal!) and spread though crits are being reduced. Thats fine as I boat them so it was always op vs open components. Now its in line with mg/hmg but still far more likely to crit. Pir-a and viper getting their hmg ammo bonus removed. You can blame D A T A for that one.

[Quandoo]

compared to the long range desaster, close range weapons need more buff. it's not even op if you catch a sniper isolated somewhere, they still can last for minutes. much easier to snipe someone with lasers which seem to have no heat issues anymore. i can shoot 6 large pulse lasers with my assault non stop without ever hitting the heat limit.

guess too many laser snipers cried they can't snipe without beeing demolished in isolated spaces.

Edited by Quandoo, 20 June 2022 - 11:25 AM.

[Novakaine]

My cousin told me a story of a group of idiots on motorbikes charging a M1 firing mg's.
While he was in Fallujah.
They disengaged when they realize they didn't even make a dent in its armor.
Then the coaxial opened up - that did not go well for them.
I introduced him to this game recently and when he saw the Artic Cheetah and a few others.
He told me that was the dumbest arse thing he's ever seen and quit.
And I tend to agree and another new player lost.
My count's up to 14 now.

[Novakaine]

Der Geisterbaer, on 16 June 2022 - 11:34 AM, said:

What "machine guns" are you talking about there? Are you trying to talk about a 10.5kg real world machine gun like the M-60 or are you talking fictional BattleTech machine guns that - in case of IS "machine guns" - weigh between 500kg and 1000kg and are explicit anti-mech (=anti-tank) weapons within that fictional universe?
Fictional weapons that interestingly enough weigh about the same or more than something like trhe GAU-8 or Vulcan auto-cannon that easily shred real world battle tanks into pieces?!



No, in the BattleTech universe the (somewhat inappropriately named) [mech] "machine gun" is an anti-mech weapon that in terms of raw damage is on par with AC2s just at severly limited ranges. MW:O already massively "nerfed" them in terms of damage and then added a "crit bonus" niche to compensate. You are now asking to pretty much remove the remaining anti-mech capability and thereby want to push those mechs that have little other options for their armament "off the board".



Trust me, the one who turned this into an intellectually dishonest farce certainly wasn't me.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun

[Der Geisterbaer]

Novakaine, on 21 June 2022 - 05:39 AM, said:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun

And that "url-bomb" is supposed to say what exactly with regards to what you quoted me on?

[Sjorpha]

Novakaine, on 21 June 2022 - 05:35 AM, said:

My cousin told me a story of a group of idiots on motorbikes charging a M1 firing mg's.
While he was in Fallujah.
They disengaged when they realize they didn't even make a dent in its armor.
Then the coaxial opened up - that did not go well for them.
I introduced him to this game recently and when he saw the Artic Cheetah and a few others.
He told me that was the dumbest arse thing he's ever seen and quit.
And I tend to agree and another new player lost.
My count's up to 14 now.

That must have been smgs or assault rifles, you can't really handle actual machine guns from a motorbike. Even lmgs are best used with a tripod or lying down with a bipod, they aren't handguns that you can wave around sitting on a bike.

But regardless of definition or lore etc, it makes no sense to argue that weapons in a game should be balanced against something that isn't in the game.

Obviously if mechs are the only thing you can shoot then all weapons must be balanced against mechs, so the whole "flamers and mgs should be anti infantry!" argument is beyond stupid.

[Novakaine]

Sjorpha, on 21 June 2022 - 06:11 AM, said:

That must have been smgs or assault rifles, you can't really handle actual machine guns from a motorbike. Even lmgs are best used with a tripod or lying down with a bipod, they aren't handguns that you can wave around sitting on a bike.

But regardless of definition or lore etc, it makes no sense to argue that weapons in a game should be balanced against something that isn't in the game.

Obviously if mechs are the only thing you can shoot then all weapons must be balanced against mechs, so the whole "flamers and mgs should be anti infantry!" argument is beyond stupid.

AK-47 and 74's it was the dumbest thing he ever saw.

[pattonesque]

Novakaine, on 21 June 2022 - 08:13 AM, said:

AK-47 and 74's it was the dumbest thing he ever saw.

is a machine gun mounted to a futuristic robot monster of a similar power to a 20th-century Soviet assault rifle?

[Nightbird]

Are we doing more bad comparisons between human sized machine guns to MW MGs when MW MGs are the size and weight of the nosegun of the A10 Tankbuster? It literally has tank killing in the name and takes half a second to do so.

[pattonesque]

Nightbird, on 21 June 2022 - 08:28 AM, said:

Are we doing more bad comparisons between human sized machine guns to MW MGs when MW MGs are the size and weight of the nosegun of the A10 Tankbuster? It literally has tank killing in the name and takes half a second to do so.

Yeah that's what's weird, like these guns are big enough caliber that even in *sainted tabletop* they do damage to a mech's magic armor. people just don't like reckoning with fact that they panic every time a machine gun light gets close getting killed by machine guns I guess!

[Der Geisterbaer]

pattonesque, on 21 June 2022 - 08:44 AM, said:

Yeah that's what's weird, like these guns are big enough caliber that even in *sainted tabletop* they do damage to a mech's magic armor.

Part of the problem there is that the original tabletop creators certainly weren't interested in the finer details of weapon technology or the real world nomenclature when calling their weapon systems this or that. Just look at the link that was thrown at me without further comment to find that canon battletech machine guns ...

• do the exact same amount of damage (2 points per hit) as AC2s and a singular SRM against mechs (whereas they do significantly less in MW:O). The text even mentions on fluff level: "The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs."
  
• weigh 250kg to 500kg (Clan) or 500kg to 1000kg (IS) with the original low end (IS with 500kg when the game was created and neither "Clans" nor Infantry let alone "light" or "heavy" variants even existed within the game) already weighing almost double of what a GAU-8/A Avenger (that A10 "tankbuster" autocannon) weighs and about quadruple of what a M61 Vulcan clocks in on.
  
• supposedly use 12.5 to 20mm shells with some going up to 30mm (where it supposedly enters "autocannon territory") ... which interestingly enough is again M-61 Vulcan and GAU-8 territory rather than the 5.56 and 7.62 calibers that real world (man portable and fix-mounted) "machine guns" like the M-60, MG3, FN MAG or M249 use.

Sidenote: The GAU-8/A is indeed a weapon purpose built for combat against tanks and armored vehicles and serves as such to this very day despite production having been discontinued ...

=> People get hung up on something that is a bit of a misnomer and outright ignore that whatever "anti-infantry" capabilities both the fictional and real world "machine guns" have is absoultely irrelevant to a game where no infantry exists ... coincidently just like in original tabeltop BatteTech, where those 500kg anti-mech "machine guns" existed from the very beginning when the game itself did not include any form of infantry at all.

[pattonesque]

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 June 2022 - 09:52 AM, said:

Part of the problem there is that the original tabletop creators certainly weren't interested in the finer details of weapon technology or the real world nomenclature when calling their weapon systems this or that. Just look at the link that was thrown at me without further comment to find that canon battletech machine guns ...

• do the exact same amount of damage (2 points per hit) as AC2s and a singular SRM against mechs (whereas they do significantly less in MW:O). The text even mentions on fluff level: "The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs."
  
• weigh 250kg to 500kg (Clan) or 500kg to 1000kg (IS) with the original low end (IS with 500kg when the game was created and neither "Clans" nor Infantry let alone "light" or "heavy" variants even existed within the game) already weighing almost double of what a GAU-8/A Avenger (that A10 "tankbuster" autocannon) weighs and about quadruple of what a M61 Vulcan clocks in on.
  
• supposedly use 12.5 to 20mm shells with some going up to 30mm (where it supposedly enters "autocannon territory") ... which interestingly enough is again M-61 Vulcan and GAU-8 territory rather than the 5.56 and 7.62 calibers that real world (man portable and fix-mounted) "machine guns" like the M-60, MG3, FN MAG or M249 use.

Sidenote: The GAU-8/A is indeed a weapon purpose built for combat against tanks and armored vehicles and serves as such to this very day despite production having been discontinued ...

=> People get hung up on something that is a bit of a misnomer and outright ignore that whatever "anti-infantry" capabilities both the fictional and real world "machine guns" have is absoultely irrelevant to a game where no infantry exists ... coincidently just like in original tabeltop BatteTech, where those 500kg anti-mech "machine guns" existed from the very beginning when the game itself did not include any form of infantry at all.

yeah it's like, I dunno, a space marine bolt pistol from 40k. Sure it's a *pistol* but it's a pistol used by a 10 foot tall murder machine and it's ******* humongous

[w0qj]

Crusader Crael hero mech:
10xMG
4xSRM6
2xERML
LE300 at almost 75kph

*faints*

[MPhoenix]

This thread and most of the responses to it are exactly why when my gaming friends both online and in person, some of which I've played Battletech with for almost three decades, ask if they should try MWO I tell them not to bother.

[pattonesque]

MPhoenix, on 21 June 2022 - 11:28 AM, said:

This thread and most of the responses to it are exactly why when my gaming friends both online and in person, some of which I've played Battletech with for almost three decades, ask if they should try MWO I tell them not to bother.

just shoot the light dude

[MPhoenix]

pattonesque, on 21 June 2022 - 01:20 PM, said:

just shoot the light dude

That is one of the most amazing examples of simultaneously missing the point completely while at the same time making the point exactly.

To see such diametrically differing aspects in one singular post is incredibly rare and for it to be so unintentional, wow.

[Meep Meep]

MPhoenix, on 21 June 2022 - 11:28 AM, said:

This thread and most of the responses to it are exactly why when my gaming friends both online and in person, some of which I've played Battletech with for almost three decades, ask if they should try MWO I tell them not to bother.

So you tell them not to bother with mwo because its not a copypasta of bt mechanics? Its a real time first person shooter not a turn based dice roller? There isn't any effective way to port over dice roll mechanics to real time mechanics and pgi wasted years of balance passes trying to wedge the tt bt ruleset into the game and failed miserably. Cauldron has the right idea in that this is a bt themed game and should be balanced as such?

[YueFei]

Meep Meep, on 21 June 2022 - 02:32 PM, said:

So you tell them not to bother with mwo because its not a copypasta of bt mechanics? Its a real time first person shooter not a turn based dice roller? There isn't any effective way to port over dice roll mechanics to real time mechanics and pgi wasted years of balance passes trying to wedge the tt bt ruleset into the game and failed miserably. Cauldron has the right idea in that this is a bt themed game and should be balanced as such?

Yeah, even the BT TT game is an abstraction, not the be all and end all of BT. The TT is not meant to be a 1-to-1 match with the Lore.

If TT supposedly matched the "reality" of Battletech, then Phelan Kell should've died in his Trial of Position to become a Warrior when he ate a Clan ERPPC headshot. If someone wants to cling dogmatically to the TT, then they'd have to discard the Lore.