151 replies to this topic

[Omar Thirds]

I am not a long time mechwarrior fan, but a friend is, and he showed me this game. This forum appears to be entirely speculation about what the game developers are thinking, but there's argument, and that's always fun.

Jaroth Winson, on 12 January 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

And here my friends is where we separate the wheat from the chaff. People who are really into the lore & love the Clans will fit right in while the people thta wanted to pop pver because of better tech will find it tedious & will want to leave after a bit of constant engagements. Everything comes with a price.

I, and I think most gamers (potential customers for the devs), would resent being considered chaff. I can't think of any action game that gives players a tangable advantage for knowing and adhering to the lore, or any game that attempts to nerf better gear by putting use restrictions on it. I do know of one game that did try to implement an honor system though: America's Army 3. While it did increase immersion, it took away from gameplay by punishing rationality-which is all an honor system really is in the end. As a new player, my main fear is that the game will be imbalanced, which will take away from the fun.

Phelan Kerensky, on 12 January 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Aaron, you seem to have a warped idea now that I have no life and actually(in real life)think myself a clanner.

Aaron DeChavilier, on 12 January 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

many here take the position that just because they believe themselves a true clan warrior that they
deserve the toys, what happens to them if they cant pass trials to get in?

True != Actual. I don't think anyone was accusing anyone of being delusional, though if it helps the drama, who am I to disagree?

[Xavier Truscott]

Jaroth Winson, on 12 January 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Pay no attention to Aaron, Phelan. He & his friends tried to dictate when & where I could RP my character. There is an ignore button & I strongly suggest you use it. He can never annoy me again, Do not let me rile you up. Just ignore him, literally.

And of course, this is where the problem lies.....anyone who tries to make sense out of the senseless is to be ignored.

Factions=NPC controlled, with high level/high Loyalty Point players possibly having some input on potential targets for that faction.
Players=Option to join any faction they like, play with the people in that faction and possibly some lone wolf and merc players along the way.

You can always decide not to group with people who do not fit your profiles, but stop with the "i'm a trueborn nutjob and you did not pass my clan's trial, so we refuse to let you play with our toys"

[Omar Thirds]

I went back and read the entire thread and... wow. The candor...

Semyon Drakon, on 31 December 2011 - 06:39 PM, said:

The instructors will, at any time, remove a trainee who refuses to play the canon Clan values and rules, be it 5 minutes in or 29 days in, if they refuse to play the game. I think this would weed out the wannabees and those who are just hunting our tech.

Anton, on 01 January 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Generally, I think that this is a really perfect approach to keep casual public from entering clan units. Either you follow all those not-so-easy-to-follow rules, or you are out.

Adridos, on 02 January 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

And I agree with you. People who want to join Clans should meet high criteria to enter. We don't want to faceroll Clans before their intended time, right?

Semyon Drakon, on 03 January 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

There seems to be a trend towards thinking this is elitist. Yes, it is.

Jaroth Winson, on 12 January 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

And here my friends is where we separate the wheat from the chaff.

The assumtion seems to be that long time clanners are somehow entitled to beat up on the potential new players. Ask yourselves: do you want a game? Do you want a game with a vibrant community, new players, or even sequels? Or do you want a mechwarrior game played only by people who have already played the other ones, hostile to new players. I hear that mechwarrior is really cool, fun, etc. But what I see is people who want to play a complicated roleplaying metagame that excludes anyione who isn't... into the lore enough? Do you honestly think that any new players will put up with this kind of snobbery?

Edited by Omar Thirds, 12 January 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

^---- this

[Jaroth Corbett]

Omar Thirds, on 12 January 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I am not a long time mechwarrior fan, but a friend is, and he showed me this game. This forum appears to be entirely speculation about what the game developers are thinking, but there's argument, and that's always fun.


I, and I think most gamers (potential customers for the devs), would resent being considered chaff. I can't think of any action game that gives players a tangable advantage for knowing and adhering to the lore, or any game that attempts to nerf better gear by putting use restrictions on it. I do know of one game that did try to implement an honor system though: America's Army 3. While it did increase immersion, it took away from gameplay by punishing rationality-which is all an honor system really is in the end. As a new player, my main fear is that the game will be imbalanced, which will take away from the fun.





True != Actual. I don't think anyone was accusing anyone of being delusional, though if it helps the drama, who am I to disagree?

The fact is there are some people who just want to come on & blow **** up. Those people are entitled to their point of view of course but the thing is if you have no passion for something it is not going to excite you & everyday you have to participate, it is going to annoy the hell out of you. If you are in the Clans prepare yourself for Trials............ a lot of them. We fight a lot, for various reasons & Trials are how we do it. If you want to be part of the Clans you are going to have to accept that. (the price you pay) You are also going to have to accept Zellbrigen. There is a certain way we fight. (I cannot help but think of Syrio Forel from A Song of Ice & Fire here ) We do certain things & we do not do other things (the price you pay). Last but not least we have bidding. We VOLUNTARILY chose to enter a fight with less numbers (this hinges on the challenged party in a batchall replying to our request for a list of their forces though & accurately to boot) (the price you pay) Why would we do this?

Quote

"At least this time you did not use contractions," Tseng said. "Star Captain Bekker, perhaps you would be so kind as to inform this surat-dung as to why we do not attack with everything we have."
Angela regarded the bondsman for a moment. "Honor," she said.
The bondsman looked puzzled, but she went on before he could interrupt.
"To use every bit of your strength to achieve a goal shows no honor. The blood in our veins as Ghost Bears is red with honor. If I outnumber you four to one and attack and defeat you, what then? Nothing. There is no honor in such a cheap victory. If I bid down and take you with even odds, there is some honor in that. But if I bid the least possible amount of force and beat you with that, then I have achieved the greatest honor. If you learn nothing else, learn that honor is the lifeblood of this Clan."

So yes it separates the wheat from the chaff. If you want to be cast as this particular role, then be prepared to act the part. It is not about talking the talk (which is all well & good) but about walking the walk. If you do not like that then stay IS. You can fight how you want, you can bring a million of your friends to a fight & you will not have to bothered by those awful Trials. You have a CHOICE. I choose honor.

Omar Thirds, on 12 January 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

I went back and read the entire thread and... wow. The candor...


The assumtion seems to be that long time clanners are somehow entitled to beat up on the potential new players. Ask yourselves: do you want a game? Do you want a game with a vibrant community, new players, or even sequels? Or do you want a mechwarrior game played only by people who have already played the other ones, hostile to new players. I hear that mechwarrior is really cool, fun, etc. But what I see is people who want to play a complicated roleplaying metagame that excludes anyione who isn't... into the lore enough? Do you honestly think that any new players will put up with this kind of snobbery?

We of the Clans do not believe in being entitled to anything. We earn it. That is why there are Trials.

This is not the only game where "veterans" felt a certain way to "rookies". Deal with it. If you do not want to play because of how someone else made you feel, then do not. Again, however we feel the game should be is our opinion, however you want the game to be is your opinion; when the devs give us the final product both groups have to decide if what lies before them is close enough to what they envisioned, to attempt to play it. I am not letting another person's feelings affect how I feel about the game but that is your choice.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 13 January 2012 - 01:57 AM.

[Alaskan Viking]

@ OP, and other Clan elitist

Ya know I don't like that idea much at all if I say so me'self. Ain't likin' that idea at all.

Xavier Truscott, on 12 January 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

You can always decide not to group with people who do not fit your profiles, but stop with the "i'm a trueborn nutjob and you did not pass my clan's trial, so we refuse to let you play with our toys"

THIS! I had to stop an' do a double take at the first poster, an' others, who I at first believed to be parodying or mocking "Clan warriors". The whole bit about the "wannabes" trying to get "our" tech was so snobby and concieted it made me laugh.

Usually I take the side of the old timers and hardcore sim n' RP'ers over the arcadey Call of Duty crowd, but this is nuts. Do you people seriously think you deserve better (read over powered) weapons just because you have read more books n' stuff than noobs'av?

Edited by Alaskan Viking, 13 January 2012 - 02:06 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 12 January 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

many here take the position that just because they believe themselves a true clan warrior that they
deserve the toys, what happens to them if they cant pass trials to get in?

As a true clansman they would of course join the scientist or labor caste!

So yeah, PGI needs to introduce some kind of puzzlegames for all the failed warriors.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Alaskan Viking, on 13 January 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

@ OP, and other Clan elitist

Ya know I don't like that idea much at all if I say so me'self. Ain't likin' that idea at all.





THIS! I had to stop an' do a double take at the first poster, an' others, who I at first believed to be parodying or mocking "Clan warriors". The whole bit about the "wannabes" trying to get "our" tech was so snobby and concieted it made me laugh.

Usually I take the side of the old timers and hardcore sim n' RP'ers over the arcadey Call of Duty crowd, but this is nuts. Do you people seriously think you deserve better (read over powered) weapons just because you have read more books n' stuff than noobs'av?

Where did you get that idea? We read the books & we decided we like the Clans as a society better than the IS. As such we abide by the customs, rules, regulations, law & lore of the Clans. Again we do not think we are entitled to anything. We want to play as the Clans & are willing to accept both the pros & cons that come with that. We will endure Trials to determine our worth regarding position. How do you people see all this other stuff?

[FireNova]

Omar Thirds, on 12 January 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

The assumtion seems to be that long time clanners are somehow entitled to beat up on the potential new players. Ask yourselves: do you want a game? Do you want a game with a vibrant community, new players, or even sequels? Or do you want a mechwarrior game played only by people who have already played the other ones, hostile to new players. I hear that mechwarrior is really cool, fun, etc. But what I see is people who want to play a complicated roleplaying metagame that excludes anyione who isn't... into the lore enough? Do you honestly think that any new players will put up with this kind of snobbery?

The sooner the elitist BattleTech fanbase (Clan/IS elitists/rejection of fanbases/faction killer supporters) quits living in the past and allows newcomers to participate, the better BattleTech as a whole will get. I agree 200% with this statement here.

[CoffiNail]

I would like to know how we can put this in to perspective for people.

We do not want to exclude anyone, but without the clan honor, they are just the inner sphere with new toys. What is the point of making the game 3050 and during the clan invasion if Clan vs IS battles play out like a organized game of living legends. Where you have a dozen guys on each side and the drop commander going, okay everyone fire on the Uziel, 5 seconds later, ok that is dead not fire on the Bushy, done now the Owens. This is not the Clans, that is how the IS wins. It is no different to play then the IS and then it is not being anything like Lore, which PGI has stated they want to try and stay pretty close to. I mean they have the grand master Randall Bills double checking their Lore.

I do not think someone should be made to play in a sibko training for a month and then they can play the game, but a introduction 'tutorial' explaining that they SHOULD fight 1 vs 1 battles with opponents, using the the claim target button (i am just tossing it in as I still after a few months feel it is the best way to handle zellbrigen), and that by following this way it is going to net them a lot more points and honor and XP. Sorry, even most power gamers will do one of two things. They will either say screw this I do not have the skills to defeat people 1 on 1 with little help from my star mates, and they will go and play a merc unit or join one of the great houses. OR theywill turn around and go, alright. So this is how I advance, sure I can do this, it might be fun and a challenge.

Yeah we feel like we deserve to play Clans like the Clans. Most people who know anything about the clans aside from they have better technology and who have only played MW3 or 4. ANYONE who read a book, the holoprojector in MW2, will understand. Sorry but the Clans have been twisted in view due to Microsoft. The only game to ever have the Clans in a good light was MW2 and GBL, the MW2 expansion, as that was the faction you played as.

The clans superior, at least in 3050 weaponry IS the REASON we want Zell to be 'enforced' and by enforced I mean it set so you fight 1 on 1, not grouping up to take things out unless you really feel you need to, as grouping up will net you less XP points. Consider Clan to be your hard difficulty in the game. You know what, I think even a lot of non lore based players will still hop to the Clans because they want their better tech AND because it not provides a adaquite challenge. I remember one friend playing games when he first got them on the hardest difficuly provided, even if he had to restart 10 times. He wanted that Superior challenge. This is the Clans, you need to be a decent player to play it properly. If in the description when selecting the faction of your choice and it lists, it as a harder difficulty due to the Clans tending to fight 1 on 1. You let people know that is how it is played and they can decide.

We do not want to exclude anyone but we also do not want to see two stars bum molesting IS companys. Beside *** are you IS fanbois complaing about? Just butt hurt becuase you we do not just want to hand out the technology to surats who will abuse the advantage? *** are you worried about, as this makes it a bit easier with your lance mates to take out a clan warrior. Do you really want to see a Clan Star all focusing on the Commanders Atlas? Let us see the ER Large Lasers hitting at 1000m, a couple Timber Wolves, sorry your commander is screwed for sure then.

THIS is as much to help the IS, and to not have clan weapons get the shat end of the stick, we would like to see Clan weapons being far supiror, The Clans have been developing them in 'peace' while the IS blasted themselves to hell and back, purposely trying to take out each others advance tech. You guys are slinging stones and we are shooting arrows here. The clans should be feared by IS pilots as much as a Commando pilot would be to turn the corner and find a Atlas grinning his metallic grin. The clans fighting IS 1 v 1 is what evens out the playing field.

I want the challenge, Sorry I have played MW games on and off since 96, I have been playing MWLL for almost two years now, I am sick of focus firing, it has no challenge to it. Sadly clan weapons are mostly on par with IS weapons in MWLL, as they want 'balance'. Well they cannot enforce Clan honor in a game where they have limited access to code, so this is how they balanced it. PGI HAS ALL THE CODE, they have the ability to call CryTek and go, 'okay i am trying to do this and having problems, how do you think i can get around this problem to get this working?' MWLL devs do not have that ability in the same context.

TL;DR?

Well I am basically saying the Clans Zellbrigen makes it a challenge and if present as a challenge from the get go players will either accept that or they will go back and play IS/Mercs.

[Thorn Hallis]

CoffiNail, on 13 January 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

I do not think someone should be made to play in a sibko training for a month and then they can play the game, but a introduction 'tutorial' explaining that they SHOULD fight 1 vs 1 battles with opponents, using the the claim target button (i am just tossing it in as I still after a few months feel it is the best way to handle zellbrigen), and that by following this way it is going to net them a lot more points and honor and XP.

Thats an idea I really like. Simply for the fact that this is at least a realistic take on the matter.

[CoffiNail]

Thorn Hallis, on 13 January 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Thats an idea I really like. Simply for the fact that this is at least a realistic take on the matter.

Been suggesting it since mid to early november. it is the only way i can see Zellbrigen working, PLUS I always guessed the Clans radar would display a target as occupied or not, as well in the heat of a battle with two trinarys vs two trinarys how are you going to know if that guy is already engaged or not?

Has to be some sort of way, i mean a warrior in the middle of a Trial is not going to stand around for a couple minutes watching the current fight going to see who looks like they are not engaged... no one in their right mind is going to be able to fight and listen to a couple dozen batchalls going across the board. Ends up finishing off his opponent, his 'engaged' tag goes to normal so any other warrior on the other side can go, oh okay that summoner pilot is free for me to engage. "This is Star Commander Bob in the 31st Assault Trinary's in the Mad Dog I challenge the Summoner with the designation of 15."

[Aaron DeChavilier]

I don't what to say...you're all...insane...
There's nothing I can say to convince you that your entire perspective is so warped into right field
that you cannot see how bad this is.

1)
@Jaroth, @Coffin, @ clan players et al
I don't get it about this choice stuff.
just as much is it my choice to play clan or not, it was YOUR choice to play clan too!
let me spell out what this means:
you
did
not
earn
any
of
it.
reading lore and getting into fiction is a corollary to playing a faction in a continuity
just cause you read it, doesn't mean the next person has to read it as well. Also, just because
you played clan x years ago doesnt turn it into some real world, universal right unto you
and you alone.

2) you all have also blatantly desired clan tech to be such a holy grail of tech, that who wouldnt want it!
you whine and moan about people diluting your player base for the tech, but then turn around and want your
tech to be amazing; you can't have it both ways

3) to force everyone to play your, to be quite honest, twisted and eccentric view of the game would push so many
players away from the game, it's no wonder that the fanbase has leveled off or in decline.

4) you all fail to realize, or at least want to debate game mechanics - coffin you claim that focus fire presents
no challenge; this is not a flaw of the player base, not a flaw of btech, it is one of video game design.

5)you guys are so far up in your little fantasy world it's not a chuckle anymore. Zell, as it is cannot be implemented
in a video game - it is an RP metagame designed to enhance a game system where you have almost unlimited time
to complete actions and control all your units. Zell would be possible in a btech RTS.

I guess I need to collect my thoughts, and make a thread about actually translating zell, from a perspective of
objectivity and game design. It would be your choice to read it, and again your choice to respond

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 13 January 2012 - 07:28 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

CoffiNail, on 13 January 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Been suggesting it since mid to early november. it is the only way i can see Zellbrigen working, PLUS I always guessed the Clans radar would display a target as occupied or not, as well in the heat of a battle with two trinarys vs two trinarys how are you going to know if that guy is already engaged or not?

Maybe through an ingame message like "Target allready challenged".

[CoffiNail]

Aaron, why do you still troll the clan section, you have no interest here, you just want to troll us and push your view. Sorry as I said what the flipping hell is point of having it during Clan Invasion if all the bloody clan pilots fight like dezgra surat inner sphere players? What the hell is the point then, might as well add in timber wolves and call it MW 3015 again.

Clans should be something like, as i said in a earlier post, like the klingons of STO, you need to be a certain level to get to play them, why because their game play is different, because they are not a group who straps the poor kid who decides to provide for his family, and joins the Fed Suns armed forces to make money. The kid has basic skills. The Clans are a society where you get intense training which has a high casualty rate and a high drop out rate, to not relfect this in the game is just saying a big F you to any of the lore, WHICH as i also said PGI is trying to adhere to, they have the almighty of battletech checking and double checking their lore to make sure it is accurate.

I understand you disagree with my stance, and the stance of 95% of the players who are posting in the clan section. You obviously are here for the lols and not the discussion. Go back to the IS discussion boards. TBH I NEVER, i repeat NEVER use the ignore feature, but you are getting me tempted to ignore someone as you just fail to comprehend the Clans. Go back to MW4 if you are so against the Clans being played like the fapping clans!

[FireNova]

All the 'lore adherence' in the world won't matter if this game fails financially because of it.....

[FireNova]

On an unrelated note, the more I think about this game, the more I am convinced that the devs should allow the players to influence events rather than events influencing the players. Aka making our own story in a way. All of this zellbrigen and twilight of the clans and wars of reaving and rules and regulations and obeying strict BattleTech tabletop lore to the letter Norris only serves to hamstring new blood from engaging and taking part in the excitement of BattleTech/MechWarrior. We haven't had a BattleTech/MechWarrior game for at least 10+ years (unless you count console games/MechAssault/Jihad/DarkAges/AgeofDestruction or other stuff like that) for crying out loud! So unless you want to wait until the year 3000 (the year when Chuck Norris takes on the enemies of the universe in a future battle that will come to be known as The Battle for the Beard King) for the next BattleTech/MechWarrior computer game, I think its time to get with the times, have fun, and have a great BattleTech/MechWarrior experience.

[CoffiNail]

Sorry I am all for a Mechwarrior game, but this is a Sim, they have stated it as a Mech Sim. It is a Mechwarrior game. HOW, please, how will it fail if the clans are advertised as a hard difficulty. I think you under estimate the disire for a bit of challenge people want. You also seem to all forget that a HUGE protion of the player base are 25+ not 16 year olds CoD fanbois. Yeah PGI wants to cater to as many people as possible, but what is the point of their Battletech side dedication if they just throw it all out the window and **** of the fans of the Mechwarrior and Battletech franchise?

Firenova, but what is the fun to the fan base if t he part that draws the people to the universe is just ignored?

This is a reboot of the series not a retelling. If you want to influence the universe in a story telling way go play some MW4 leagues again.

[Xavier Truscott]

CoffiNail, on 13 January 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Sorry I am all for a Mechwarrior game, but this is a Sim, they have stated it as a Mech Sim. It is a Mechwarrior game. HOW, please, how will it fail if the clans are advertised as a hard difficulty. I think you under estimate the disire for a bit of challenge people want. You also seem to all forget that a HUGE protion of the player base are 25+ not 16 year olds CoD fanbois. Yeah PGI wants to cater to as many people as possible, but what is the point of their Battletech side dedication if they just throw it all out the window and **** of the fans of the Mechwarrior and Battletech franchise?

Firenova, but what is the fun to the fan base if t he part that draws the people to the universe is just ignored?

This is a reboot of the series not a retelling. If you want to influence the universe in a story telling way go play some MW4 leagues again.

Clans advertised as hard difficulty isn't really accurate. A single clan mech can easily take out generally 2 to 3 times it's tonnage in IS mech if piloted with just average skill.

Clans advertised as joining a cult is more accurate of the proposal you all are presenting. I really don't know what you all have been smoking, but you need to relax.

[guardian wolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 13 January 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

I don't what to say...you're all...insane...
There's nothing I can say to convince you that your entire perspective is so warped into right field
that you cannot see how bad this is.

1)
@Jaroth, @Coffin, @ clan players et al
I don't get it about this choice stuff.
just as much is it my choice to play clan or not, it was YOUR choice to play clan too!
let me spell out what this means:
you
did
not
earn
any
of
it.
reading lore and getting into fiction is a corollary to playing a faction in a continuity
just cause you read it, doesn't mean the next person has to read it as well. Also, just because
you played clan x years ago doesnt turn it into some real world, universal right unto you
and you alone.

2) you all have also blatantly desired clan tech to be such a holy grail of tech, that who wouldnt want it!
you whine and moan about people diluting your player base for the tech, but then turn around and want your
tech to be amazing; you can't have it both ways

3) to force everyone to play your, to be quite honest, twisted and eccentric view of the game would push so many
players away from the game, it's no wonder that the fanbase has leveled off or in decline.

4) you all fail to realize, or at least want to debate game mechanics - coffin you claim that focus fire presents
no challenge; this is not a flaw of the player base, not a flaw of btech, it is one of video game design.

5)you guys are so far up in your little fantasy world it's not a chuckle anymore. Zell, as it is cannot be implemented
in a video game - it is an RP metagame designed to enhance a game system where you have almost unlimited time
to complete actions and control all your units. Zell would be possible in a btech RTS.

I guess I need to collect my thoughts, and make a thread about actually translating zell, from a perspective of
objectivity and game design. It would be your choice to read it, and again your choice to respond

CoffiNail, thank you for telling him to **** off, as I was getting ready to, but seriously Aaron, with your screw all you clan players BS. You really think that we really are snobby elitists. Get this, I am NOT, against new players, NOT AT ALL, okay you get that? But as my good friend the Ghost Bear (aka CoffiNail) stated, the Clans would be EXTREMELY OVERPOWERED, if not for the HONOR SYSTEM, you want to play like an IS surat, and have clan tech, then try and kill us, instead of whine about us policing our own ranks. The only way to keep the game balanced so that not everyone will jump ship when the clans show up is to enforce this honor system, so that only the dedicated people, who are either looking for a challenge, or are actually interested will join. A lot of people would be willing to jump for a "Ooooh, Shiiiny" moment, but were are trying to stop this as much as possible. Like I said before, the honor system is the balance, so, quit whining, and either abide by it, or don't be a part.