210 replies to this topic

[foamyesque]

There's a very real window where you're good enough that you shouldn't really be matched against T5s any more but also have no business landing in a match with NGNG, Tunafist, D A T A, etc (for example, me :v). And yet, once you hit T3, you can be against either. Tier matching should really be +/- one tier at absolute most but I don't think the player numbers really support that.

[w0qj]

If you're newer to this MWO game and still struggle with CBills to buy new mech, or even need to grind CBills to buy/upgrade weapons/equipment, it's much better that you stay at T4 and occasionally T3, until you get your CBills economy in order.
I personally define this as average monthly balance of 50 million CBills or above.

I mean, staying at T4/T3, the only adverse thing is that your ego gets somewhat deflated (and might be a good thing at that!).

As to get your match score up in T3/T2, deal as much damage as possible, & many Kill Assists.

eg:
For T3: getting 200-500 damage, and 8-12 Kill Assists, will mostly give you a good match score + rewards.
Actual Killing Blow actually is worth very little to the match score calculations!

MrMadguy, on 15 September 2022 - 10:04 AM, said:

Due to tryhard deathballs. Two matches in a row - two insta deaths from enemies just running at us within 15 seconds from match start. Can advancing to Tier 3 be simply disabled for me? It ruins 50% of my matches due to tier fluctuations. It's impossible to do free 'Mech event.

Edited by w0qj, 16 September 2022 - 08:56 PM.

[1Exitar1]

I hated Tier 3 when I got to it. I started going against top tier players then. It was rough for a while, but I learned and became better. I'm currently halfway through Tier 2. Good luck to you OP!

[crazytimes]

The potato builds you can use to farm tier 5s don't work as well against vaguely planned builds and people that move some of the stock 25 back armor to the front.

Consider planning builds that include an engine, and head in a vaguely similar direction to the rest of the team.

[Dr Wubs]

Orion_, on 16 September 2022 - 10:08 AM, said:

I for one am infuriated at how few people in tier 2 let me headshot them like they did back in 4 and 5. Completely unacceptable.

Seriously though, the way games are played completely changes when you hit tier 3, in my experience. Take a minute to relearn where people are going to go and stick with your team. The first time I hit tier 3 a few months ago were utter smack downs because I would still play like 4 and 5 and be on a completely different map and mindset from the rest of my team. Be much more patient, stick with the gang, and focus fire as much as you can. You don't have to learn how to play the game again, but chances are you'll have to relearn how to play many of the maps.

So you're arguing that cadets should not start in tier 3.

Good.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 15 September 2022 - 10:04 AM, said:

Advancing To Tier 3 Immediatelly Makes Game Unplayable

What should the poor T1 players say?

MrMadguy, on 15 September 2022 - 10:04 AM, said:

Due to tryhard deathballs. Two matches in a row - two insta deaths from enemies just running at us within 15 seconds from match start.

Usually, you have additional three lancemates (and sometimes more) to help you.

MrMadguy, on 15 September 2022 - 10:04 AM, said:

Can advancing to Tier 3 be simply disabled for me?

No, it can not.

MrMadguy, on 15 September 2022 - 10:04 AM, said:

It ruins 50% of my matches due to tier fluctuations. It's impossible to do free 'Mech event.

Do not give up.

You still have more than three weeks to complete the free 'Mech challenge.

[Knownswift]

I too would like an options slider that sets the level of seal club for my games.

[Tromoskyon Rex]

Dr Wubs, on 17 September 2022 - 03:17 AM, said:

So you're arguing that cadets should not start in tier 3.

Good.

They absolutely should not. If I started in 3 and had to fall down to 5 to learn the game there is no way I would have stuck with it when I started last year. I had never even used KBM before this so even in T5 it was a rough start. It isn't like moving up is much of a slog to begin with anyways. After finishing Guillotine last month it took me 3 weeks to go from T5 to the start of T2 (apparently learning to aim helps a lot).

[dubstep albatross]

Dr Wubs, on 17 September 2022 - 03:17 AM, said:

So you're arguing that cadets should not start in tier 3.

Good.

I am not sure if I missed some context for your reply, but cadets currently start near the top of Tier 5. They seem to start with about 900 PSR, which is about 100 shy of the 5/4 transition. This seems like this has been the case since at least November of 2021.

[Vlads Brain]

dubstep albatross, on 17 September 2022 - 02:05 PM, said:

I am not sure if I missed some context for your reply, but cadets currently start near the top of Tier 5. They seem to start with about 900 PSR, which is about 100 shy of the 5/4 transition. This seems like this has been the case since at least November of 2021.

Yes. You used to start out about midway in tier 3 but that was tossing cadets to the wolves. I think they should lower it to about mid tier 5 for cadets so they can stay in a comfy zone for longer and not get frustrated as even the bump to tier 4 ups the quality of play noticeably.

[foamyesque]

dubstep albatross, on 17 September 2022 - 02:05 PM, said:

I am not sure if I missed some context for your reply, but cadets currently start near the top of Tier 5. They seem to start with about 900 PSR, which is about 100 shy of the 5/4 transition. This seems like this has been the case since at least November of 2021.

Since earlier. I picked up MWO in June of 2021 and also started at almost-but-not-quite T4. And spent a very long time at the rock bottom of T5 until I figured out how to play a little better :v

[dubstep albatross]

foamyesque, on 17 September 2022 - 07:53 PM, said:

Since earlier. I picked up MWO in June of 2021 and also started at almost-but-not-quite T4. And spent a very long time at the rock bottom of T5 until I figured out how to play a little better :v

I have been playing since 2014 (though not on this particular account). I took a break in mid 2017 and missed the PSR changes and the two resets. I never even really paid attention to tier much before I returned in 2021. I am pretty sure in the original system I was tier 1 before the reset, but I could not tell you where I started. Back then PSR was basically just an XP bar -- you played long enough, you got up in tiers. The current system, for better or for worse, feels very different.

[Gideon Bravor]

I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, on 15 September 2022 - 12:26 PM, said:

No, you can't be allowed to farm geriatrics and new players forever. Adapt, overcome.

Yeah, it's only cool to endlessly farm statistically inferior players when it's tier 1s doing it to tier 3s.

Seriously, stick that pompous attitude back up your *** where it belongs.

Ken Harkin, on 16 September 2022 - 01:01 PM, said:

The killer is at Tier 3 you can run into groups dropping together who are highly skilled. When they are on your side things can go very well, on the other side it is brutal. It is especially bad when you wind up dropping with potatoes looking to snipe from the other side of the map in their assaults when you could simply deathball through the enemy.

The two best things you can do are:

1. COMMUNICATE!!! Use the voice chat and you may find others joining in. Call out enemy movements and where you are going. Shout out to nearby teammates when they are getting flanked and when you may want to coordinate something with them. Some will not respond but others will. Communication is a MAJOR force multiplier.

2. SHOW PATIENCE. Don't go off poking on your own and don't casually sit in the back thinking you can snipe away. Stay with your team. Unless you are really good the poker is going to get chopped quickly. The casual sniper hiding in the back is going to attract those lights looking for the easy kill. Stay together and don't charge right in without support/friends.

The problem with advice like this is, even if you follow it, you won't change the outcome of an 0-12 or 3-12 wipe. Especially if you're playing solo. The only thing you can do is elevate your personal performance so it's not as shameful as the fodder who die in the first 5 minutes having done less than 300 damage.

But as motivation goes, that gets old pretty fast. There's very little incentive for an average or barely above average player to continue slogging through low quality matches. Once you play against enough tier 1 groups, and you start to recognize them, compare them to the top players on your side, quickly deduce your side has no chance of winning: that's when the sense of futility really sets in.

And then you quit, which is what I did a few months ago. I just stopped by the forum today though, to see what the hot topics were. Sure enough, I see a guy with the same kind of problems that killed any enjoyment I had here, and he gets the usual 'git gud' handwaving disdain, or well-intentioned but ultimately ineffectual advice.

[Gideon Bravor]

foamyesque, on 16 September 2022 - 03:36 PM, said:

There's a very real window where you're good enough that you shouldn't really be matched against T5s any more but also have no business landing in a match with NGNG, Tunafist, D A T A, etc (for example, me :v). And yet, once you hit T3, you can be against either. Tier matching should really be +/- one tier at absolute most but I don't think the player numbers really support that.

Ideally, T5s should be isolated and only play other tier 5s. Same for tier 1s.

The average player quality for tiers 4-2 is close enough to not present a major imbalance.

The irony of saying the player numbers don't support tighter tier groups, is that players hitting a massive wall upon entering tier 3 and losing interest rapidly thereafter--that's one of the major reasons the game's population will never be large enough to establish a better tier system.

When I first started playing, I was excited to rise in tier, because I thought match quality would increase as I left tier 5s behind. Oh, how wrong I was.

The bottom performers of tier 3 will behave as poorly, relative to their tier 1 competition, as tier 5s would. The presence of top-of-tier T1s, in death squads or solo, is a far greater imbalancing factor than running into tier 3 groups or solos at tier 5 and 4 was.

The tiny game population at any given time will greatly increase the probability of running into top tier players/groups, once you hit tier 3. While it is possible to be matched against tier 5s, in my experience, I was much more often placed in matches as the bottom-tier fodder.

I recall the occasions where, by dumb luck, I was 'on the right side of history' with one group of tier 1s on my team, and we won 12-0; and then the very next match I'm put on the opposite side against the same group, and we lose 2-12.

This pattern repeated itself again and again. I never discerned such patterns while I was in tier 5 and 4. Nor did I feel completely powerless to affect the outcome of a match.

[Vlads Brain]

Gideon Bravor, on 17 September 2022 - 09:31 PM, said:

Ideally, T5s should be isolated and only play other tier 5s. Same for tier 1s.

There used to be more separation of the tiers along with premades not getting dumped into the solo queue. But that was long ago when the population numbers were higher. Now we are lucky to have a few thousand online at any one time and that means the matchmaker had to be tweaked for better queue times. Even now it can take a few minutes to get a match.

[Gideon Bravor]

Vlads Brain, on 17 September 2022 - 09:40 PM, said:

There used to be more separation of the tiers along with premades not getting dumped into the solo queue. But that was long ago when the population numbers were higher. Now we are lucky to have a few thousand online at any one time and that means the matchmaker had to be tweaked for better queue times. Even now it can take a few minutes to get a match.

I realize the population issue is an insoluble problem by now. I just can't stand the lack of self awareness in some of these comments.

In a healthy game, there'd be at least 2 different modes; like casual and ranked play. The player should always be given a choice of whether they want to be in more competitive or relaxed games.

In MWO, players are neither given the choice nor a clear picture of why their games aren't fun anymore, upon hitting tier 3. All of a sudden, they have to stop using certain mechs, start using others, and become a slave to the meta dictated by the upper ~5% of the player base.

Or, the alternative is to lose constantly and feel like sh**. Good for you, if you're one of the rare masochists who don't mind losing constantly, and can still have fun while being haplessly farmed by the top players. Most gamers aren't built that way.

It's something of a non-choice. It's not as simple as 'adapting and overcoming.' The question is twofold: A) why should we have to change the way we play because the game arbitrarily decides we passed a certain threshold? And B ) is it fun to turn a game into a chore and work? For a lot of people, the answer is 'no.'

There should be a casual mode for people who just like to play a game their own way; not the prevailing meta. And all that ends decisively at tier 3.

It is entirely rational and predictable that a large number of players become disenchanted with the game at that point.

Obviously the people at the top of the pile don't mind. But for everyone else who sees the murderball armed with the meta du jour, steamrolling over them and their entire team, they have to ask: 'when did this stop being fun?'

Oh, yeah. Tier 3.

Edited by Gideon Bravor, 18 September 2022 - 01:31 PM.

[Gagis]

The average skill level in this game abysmal. You need to just do an absolutely minimum effort to do your share for your team's victory to do well in tier 3. Moving with the team and having basic aim and willingness to shoot back at the enemy is enough.

There are 11 other players who are depending on your to carry your own weight, after all.

I do agree that +-1 setting would be better and I actually think we might just have large enough population to make it work, but this melodrama is foolish.

Edited by Gagis, 18 September 2022 - 01:45 PM.

[pattonesque]

tbqh the amount of change in playstyle necessitated from moving up the ranks isn't nearly as dramatic or difficult as people make it out to be. For the most part it's just:

• don't YOLO out of cover when you're getting shot
  
• Torso twist
  
• try to fire at the enemy instead of running away
  
• build your mech to accomplish a goal. "Oh but I like my mech to have a single machine gun and five firi--" No. There are 900 mechs in this game, you can find a specific build which will allow you to play in a fun and effective fashion

you do that and you'll mostly be fine. like you even see it in T1 play. Watch a D A T A video and note the number of times he'll be laying into someone from 900m away and that person will repeatedly stare and trade with him despite having only LB10s, or how many times they'll simply keep pressing W and getting farmed instead of repositioning.

[Gideon Bravor]

Gagis, on 18 September 2022 - 01:44 PM, said:

The average skill level in this game abysmal. You need to just do an absolutely minimum effort to do your share for your team's victory to do well in tier 3. Moving with the team and having basic aim and willingness to shoot back at the enemy is enough.

No, it's really not enough.

Once again, a tier 1 talks down to us from on high.

Are you aware of the smug elitism your statement exudes, or do you just not care?

Allow me to give you some stats of my failed mech experiments in tier 3, since stats speak louder than words:

Banshee BNC-3E: 3 wins, 7 losses. 6 kills, 10 deaths. Sold it.

Centurion CN9-D: 1 win, 6 losses. 7 kills, 5 deaths. Sold it.

Dervish DV-6M: 9 wins, 15 losses. 38 kills and 15 deaths. I kept it in spite of the horrible W/L.

Jagermech JM6-S: 3 wins, 8 losses. 6 kills, 9 deaths. Sold it.

Kintaro KTO-20: 0 wins, 7 losses. 4 kills, 7 deaths. Sold it.

Shadow Hawk SHD-2D: 1 win, 6 losses. 6 kills, 7 deaths. Sold it.

So, are you going to tell me that in all the above cases, I wasn't contributing enough to my team?

What's the definition of 'absolutely minimum effort?'

You don't get sh** for score unless you do 500+ damage in a win or a loss. Is that your definition of 'absolutely minimum'? I've been on plenty of 0-12s where only 1 or 2 players gets over 300 damage on the losing team.

Even if you're lucky enough to get a roughly 50-50 W/L, the severity of catastrophic losses will wipe out most of the PSR gains from wins.

Which means that to rise in tier 3, you need to find a way to do well during both losses and wins. Which means you need to conform to meta and change the way you play.

There's no way around it.

Acting like you can just coast through tier 3 with minimal effort is beyond absurd.

[Gideon Bravor]

pattonesque, on 18 September 2022 - 01:45 PM, said:

tbqh the amount of change in playstyle necessitated from moving up the ranks isn't nearly as dramatic or difficult as people make it out to be. For the most part it's just:

• don't YOLO out of cover when you're getting shot
  
• Torso twist
  
• try to fire at the enemy instead of running away
  
• build your mech to accomplish a goal. "Oh but I like my mech to have a single machine gun and five firi--" No. There are 900 mechs in this game, you can find a specific build which will allow you to play in a fun and effective fashion

you do that and you'll mostly be fine. like you even see it in T1 play. Watch a D A T A video and note the number of times he'll be laying into someone from 900m away and that person will repeatedly stare and trade with him despite having only LB10s, or how many times they'll simply keep pressing W and getting farmed instead of repositioning.

You do realize that telling everyone to play like a T1 is the equivalent of telling a bum on the street to just 'be more like Jeff Bezos', right?

That's about as useful as your advice is.

There's this thing that people have. It's called a natural limit to their talent and ability. You can tell them to stop playing the game stupidly/wrongly/inefficiently compared to the top players all you want, but will that actually change them?

No. No, it won't.

Then there's also a natural limit to how hard people will try to increase their native ability through training/practice. Remember: this is a game. We don't get paid to play it.

So the only sensible thing to do is, guess what, separate the low-skilled from the high-skilled. Imagine that.

Imagine having a competition that separated Michael Phelps from some kid who likes to swim every other weekend in his backyard, non-Olympic-sized pool.

Wow, what a concept.

But instead, your answer is to tell the casual swimmer to 'be more like Phelps.'

Brilliant advice.