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Advancing To Tier 3 Immediatelly Makes Game Unplayable


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#41 pattonesque

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 03:37 PM

View PostGideon Bravor, on 18 September 2022 - 02:52 PM, said:

You do realize that telling everyone to play like a T1 is the equivalent of telling a bum on the street to just 'be more like Jeff Bezos', right?

That's about as useful as your advice is.

There's this thing that people have. It's called a natural limit to their talent and ability. You can tell them to stop playing the game stupidly/wrongly/inefficiently compared to the top players all you want, but will that actually change them?

No. No, it won't.

Then there's also a natural limit to how hard people will try to increase their native ability through training/practice. Remember: this is a game. We don't get paid to play it.

So the only sensible thing to do is, guess what, separate the low-skilled from the high-skilled. Imagine that.

Imagine having a competition that separated Michael Phelps from some kid who likes to swim every other weekend in his backyard, non-Olympic-sized pool.

Wow, what a concept.

But instead, your answer is to tell the casual swimmer to 'be more like Phelps.'

Brilliant advice.


All of this stuff is easy. I'm not telling you to hit 360 no-scopes or hit the same component repeatedly from 900m away. Look, I'll simplify it:
  • use cover
  • twist
  • left click on the enemy
  • have a build that makes sense
I think it's revealing that you regard these pretty simple things as only achievable by competitive-level players. It kinda sounds like you're making excuses for your own unwillingness -- not inability, mind you -- to do any of them. Here, I'll simplify it even further, to just one bullet point:
  • don't immediately wail and rend your garments the moment you encounter even the slightest bit of adversity in this giant robot video game


#42 Gideon Bravor

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 04:05 PM

View Postpattonesque, on 18 September 2022 - 03:37 PM, said:


All of this stuff is easy. I'm not telling you to hit 360 no-scopes or hit the same component repeatedly from 900m away. Look, I'll simplify it:
  • use cover
  • twist
  • left click on the enemy
  • have a build that makes sense
I think it's revealing that you regard these pretty simple things as only achievable by competitive-level players. It kinda sounds like you're making excuses for your own unwillingness -- not inability, mind you -- to do any of them.



You still don't get it.

There are skill gaps in all games. Telling people to modify their behavior to mimic the behavior of top performers is not only condescending elitism, but it's simply not practical.

Being forced to copy winners to perform better would only be fair if there was an initial choice. If players voluntarily entered a competitive queue or game mode.

It is patently idiotic to match up top performers with mediocre performers--who didn't ask or demand to play against top performers--and then snidely tell the mediocre people to apply just the tiniest fraction of effort to improve.

Did it ever occur to you that what comes easily to the top players, doesn't come easily to everyone else?

If you were a math teacher, would you put a C-grade student in an AP class with straight-A students, and then berate the C-grader for being stupid when he couldn't keep up with the rest of the class?

The C-grader didn't ask to be there. That's the point. That's the only point that matters.

#43 Gideon Bravor

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 04:38 PM

View Postpattonesque, on 18 September 2022 - 03:37 PM, said:


Here, I'll simplify it even further, to just one bullet point:
  • don't immediately wail and rend your garments the moment you encounter even the slightest bit of adversity in this giant robot video game


Slight bit of adversity?

I have some more stats here (all from tier 3):

In my first 41 matches in the Charger-N7, I had 25 wins and 16 losses. 44 kills and 16 deaths.

In the following 63 matches, I had 29 wins and 34 losses. 50 kills and 38 deaths.
What happened was a very long series of stomps that I was powerless to mitigate.

I don't know, or care, why the stomp frequency increased. I don't care if you or anyone else wants to somehow blame me for them (despite the first 40 matches showing I could handle myself adequately).

The point is, they happened, and there was little fun to be had during such a long decline. It's not losing that's the problem. The aggregate W/L doesn't tell the whole story. The real issue is that most of the losses were hideously one-sided.

It was more than 'the slightest bit of adversity.'

It's a matter of the stomps not being worth the wins. Because a lot of wins are you just being carried by the same tryhards that will gut your team later that evening, or the next night, as the matchmaker decrees.

Unlike the top tier players, I don't really enjoy being on the good side of a stomp. The best matches are 12-9 (or 9-12) and closer. Those are the ones you enjoy and remember. Losing those isn't very disappointing/boring, because you and your team are alive long enough to actually do stuff. Likewise, when you win, and you're one of the last alive, you feel like you contributed.

12-3 and 3-12 are just repetitive and meaningless blurs. And that's what most of my tier 3 experiences turned into.

#44 pattonesque

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 05:49 PM

View PostGideon Bravor, on 18 September 2022 - 04:05 PM, said:



You still don't get it.

There are skill gaps in all games. Telling people to modify their behavior to mimic the behavior of top performers is not only condescending elitism, but it's simply not practical.

Being forced to copy winners to perform better would only be fair if there was an initial choice. If players voluntarily entered a competitive queue or game mode.

It is patently idiotic to match up top performers with mediocre performers--who didn't ask or demand to play against top performers--and then snidely tell the mediocre people to apply just the tiniest fraction of effort to improve.

Did it ever occur to you that what comes easily to the top players, doesn't come easily to everyone else?

If you were a math teacher, would you put a C-grade student in an AP class with straight-A students, and then berate the C-grader for being stupid when he couldn't keep up with the rest of the class?

The C-grader didn't ask to be there. That's the point. That's the only point that matters.


again these are very easy things to do. they will not affect your enjoyment of the game unless you've decided to roleplay someone with a deathwish.

in an ideal world there would be enough people for a casual queue and one that's more focused on ranks. but there isn't. so I am sorry but you may have to try some of these (again, very easy) things to adjust.

#45 Kanil

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 06:35 PM

... wouldn't a casual queue just be a place for tier 1s to casually farm tier 5s? Like the entire point of playing "ranked" is so the game can keep the low ranking players away from the high ranking ones...

#46 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 06:54 PM

View PostKanil, on 18 September 2022 - 06:35 PM, said:

... wouldn't a casual queue just be a place for tier 1s to casually farm tier 5s? Like the entire point of playing "ranked" is so the game can keep the low ranking players away from the high ranking ones...


Exactly. The current system keeps T5 and T4 players from T1 players in most circumstances. With a larger population it would do a better job, but in any case, eventually you’ll win enough games that you increase your rank to start encountering the better players (T2), and then after that the best players (T1). That last category covers both the skilled/competent as well as the deadliest and most accomplished.

It is at that point (T3) that you have a choice… up your game a bit to compete, or drop everything and go find a single player game so you won’t ever run into people who are more practiced than you are. Or perhaps a third option, lose a lot on purpose so you drop back to T4 and get a reprieve from facing the brutal and the skilled.

that’s the stark truth of it. No matter how large the player base, any ranked system will eventually advance a player to the point where they encounter players who are very hard to beat. And without a ranked system, you could encounter these folks on day one.

I feel that pain. It’s been a long, slow climb through T2, and I have many old beloved builds that just don’t own a T1 battlefield the way they did a T5 drop. Sometimes I field them anyway, and it’s a rare game I can carry with one. But I love this game, and I’m okay with the fact that there are better players than me.

#47 Maj Destruction

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 08:34 PM

Heh, some of the frustration here reminds me of my own complaints down here in T5-land from time to time. Apparently I'm really, really bad at this game, because I'm stuck at the bottom of T5. Fortunately I more or less stopped caring about stats and scoring a while back, I just want to go fight and have fun. But if I were actually trying to advance in tiers, it would be horrifically frustrating. For instance, over a period of 2 or 3 days, I was playing pretty well and saw my ranking climb steadily. Even when my team lost, I was usually going up in ranking each game, or at least "no change" a few times. Then, over the course of a few bad runs over just two sessions, my tier 5 progress all but vanished. The frustrating part is I didn't play any different. Same build, same tactics, more or less same mindset and objectives. I suppose that's the nature of playing against random groups of people.

My favorite games are the hectic, epic action-packed 12 to 10'ish smash fests (and I don't even have to be on the winning side) where our mechs are all shot up and most everyone played well. But those sorts of games are too rare.

Matt

#48 Baucke

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 09:46 AM

I have no problem with losing.
I have no problem to get taught a lesson when I do something stupid.
etc.

But having the impression as T3 being put on the unlucky side of a mostly T4 against mostly T2 is not fun.
You don't have an epic battle there, you just get beat up 12 to 0, maybe 12 to 2 if a lot goes right.

I have the impression the distribution of the tiers is like a bathtub. And being T3 is more or less a coin flip.
For some weeks now: if I drop down to T4 - like I'm at the moment - matches get magnitudes less frustrating.

#49 Knownswift

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 02:39 PM

View PostGideon Bravor, on 18 September 2022 - 04:05 PM, said:

If players voluntarily entered a competitive queue or game mode.



This game only offers competitive ranked play.

#50 ArticArcher

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 09:07 PM

I think they main frustration that is tier 3 is the extreme randomness of the matches. Sometimes you are with good people that you work well with and other times you are matched with inexperienced people that seem to work against you.

When I played more actively a few years ago I found tier 3 most annoying due to how unpredictable your allies and foes can be. Tier 1 you knew both your allies and enemy knew how to work together based on their roles.

It is interesting for me at the moment returning and back at tier 4 though seeing stock builds mixed with good players with effective builds together.

#51 YueFei

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 10:37 PM

View PostGideon Bravor, on 18 September 2022 - 04:38 PM, said:


Slight bit of adversity?

I have some more stats here (all from tier 3):

In my first 41 matches in the Charger-N7, I had 25 wins and 16 losses. 44 kills and 16 deaths.

In the following 63 matches, I had 29 wins and 34 losses. 50 kills and 38 deaths.
What happened was a very long series of stomps that I was powerless to mitigate.

I don't know, or care, why the stomp frequency increased. I don't care if you or anyone else wants to somehow blame me for them (despite the first 40 matches showing I could handle myself adequately).

The point is, they happened, and there was little fun to be had during such a long decline. It's not losing that's the problem. The aggregate W/L doesn't tell the whole story. The real issue is that most of the losses were hideously one-sided.

It was more than 'the slightest bit of adversity.'

It's a matter of the stomps not being worth the wins. Because a lot of wins are you just being carried by the same tryhards that will gut your team later that evening, or the next night, as the matchmaker decrees.

Unlike the top tier players, I don't really enjoy being on the good side of a stomp. The best matches are 12-9 (or 9-12) and closer. Those are the ones you enjoy and remember. Losing those isn't very disappointing/boring, because you and your team are alive long enough to actually do stuff. Likewise, when you win, and you're one of the last alive, you feel like you contributed.

12-3 and 3-12 are just repetitive and meaningless blurs. And that's what most of my tier 3 experiences turned into.


The nature of this game means even among well-balanced teams, matches are often "stomps" in terms of the kill counts. Mechs permanently take damage, lose function, and die. And there's no way to get them back. A mistake that one player makes can easily have a snowball effect. But even then, sometimes a 12-3 match was a lot closer than the final score would suggest. If you win a 12-3 match, hit 'Q' and look at your teammates' health percentages. You'll often find that many teammates were severely damaged, halved, or near death. But because they were able to cycle themselves out, and fresher teammates stepped in, your team's hurt mechs were able to continue to contribute an extra 2 or 3 volleys of fire, tipping the scales.

As real-life infantry can tell you, a firefight is a sort of "zero-sum game", with a very precarious balance that can tip either way. One soldier that manages to suppress an enemy that previously had a friendly pinned/suppressed, now frees up that friendly to shoot and suppress another enemy... this can start a "snowball" effect as one side starts gaining the upper hand in fires and can then take advantage maneuver to destroy the enemy.

#52 pattonesque

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 08:20 AM

View PostYueFei, on 19 September 2022 - 10:37 PM, said:


The nature of this game means even among well-balanced teams, matches are often "stomps" in terms of the kill counts. Mechs permanently take damage, lose function, and die. And there's no way to get them back. A mistake that one player makes can easily have a snowball effect. But even then, sometimes a 12-3 match was a lot closer than the final score would suggest. If you win a 12-3 match, hit 'Q' and look at your teammates' health percentages. You'll often find that many teammates were severely damaged, halved, or near death. But because they were able to cycle themselves out, and fresher teammates stepped in, your team's hurt mechs were able to continue to contribute an extra 2 or 3 volleys of fire, tipping the scales.

As real-life infantry can tell you, a firefight is a sort of "zero-sum game", with a very precarious balance that can tip either way. One soldier that manages to suppress an enemy that previously had a friendly pinned/suppressed, now frees up that friendly to shoot and suppress another enemy... this can start a "snowball" effect as one side starts gaining the upper hand in fires and can then take advantage maneuver to destroy the enemy.


yes but what if the game was unfair to me personally and required me to actually respond to adversity

what then

#53 YueFei

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 10:14 AM

View PostDing Toast is Ready, on 20 September 2022 - 08:30 AM, said:

The game gives you very little clues if any about how to respond to a given adversity, and people like you clearly don't CARE if players experience adversity that they don't know how to work around or overcome except insofar as it allows you to laugh and mock them.

Who's gonna teach us? You? You, the person who thinks this is hilarious and whose first response to players who are not handling the transition to higher tiers well is "quit whining lol"? I doubt it. Quit being awful to people at lower skill and knowledge levels. Tearing us down makes us hate you, not want to learn from you.


Plenty of players willing to teach. Pattonesque posted in this very thread to drop some simple advice that doesn't depend at all on mechanical or twitch skills, which means these are highly "accessible" and easy to learn.

But some people's attitudes prevent them from ever learning. A lot of the skilled players in this game are more than willing to pass along their knowledge. They ain't afraid of competition, they crave it. After all, iron sharpens iron. Desperta Ferro!

To learn, you gotta check your ego for a minute, and be willing to be coached. Ask questions. Practice.

Or, just accept that if you're not willing to put in that kind of effort, that you also have to accept the results you get. It's completely valid to play the game purely for fun, and not be a sweaty try-hard that pushes for max performance. But if you're gonna play casually, you can't complain about getting mediocre results.

#54 Curccu

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 10:48 AM

View PostDing Toast is Ready, on 20 September 2022 - 10:18 AM, said:

I'm doing all of those things and was doing them throughout T4 right into hitting T3.

If this really is your 1st time playing MWO and not alt account I can tell you that you are playing very good for what experience of this game you got (https://mwomercs.com...+Toast+is+Ready). so far, keep playing and you will become even better.

But as you hit T3 you can get same game with players who are insanely much better than average T4-5 player, spectate what those fellows do and you will get better.

New player help section might help?
I think there are LFG discords (I don't use them myself so I don't have address for you but someone here most likely can tell) to get friends to play with and to learn from.

View PostDing Toast is Ready, on 20 September 2022 - 10:18 AM, said:

Still felt a huge slowdown and struggle when I hit my first few matches as T3. So it's clearly not as simple as what he is implying - there is some other factor that needs to be present, and he is not proffering anything except derision as near as I can see.

Yes people become better shots and play better and more lethal overall as rise in tiers, skills you have learned can still be mastered or just get better at those. Experience is great teacher to those that are willing to learn and get better.

View PostDing Toast is Ready, on 20 September 2022 - 10:18 AM, said:

We are asking "what is going wrong" and he is the one playing the part of "ugh, whiny noob, I just told you, quit being stupid."

That kind of question so so super vague without seeing you actually play. But yeah being more polite instead of calling stupid wouldn't be bad.
Show some vids of your gaming, ask more specific questions, post builds you playing with, etc.

#55 pattonesque

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:12 PM

View PostDing Toast is Ready, on 20 September 2022 - 08:30 AM, said:

Who's gonna teach us? You? You, the person who thinks this is hilarious and whose first response to players who are not handling the transition to higher tiers well is "quit whining lol"? I doubt it. Quit being awful to people at lower skill and knowledge levels. Tearing us down makes us hate you, not want to learn from you.


as has been mentioned I literally posted some simple rules to follow earlier in this thread and the response was "this is impossible and also go to hell for even suggesting it"

#56 R Valentine

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 01:11 PM

View PostGideon Bravor, on 18 September 2022 - 04:38 PM, said:


Slight bit of adversity?

I have some more stats here (all from tier 3):

In my first 41 matches in the Charger-N7, I had 25 wins and 16 losses. 44 kills and 16 deaths.

In the following 63 matches, I had 29 wins and 34 losses. 50 kills and 38 deaths.
What happened was a very long series of stomps that I was powerless to mitigate.

I don't know, or care, why the stomp frequency increased. I don't care if you or anyone else wants to somehow blame me for them (despite the first 40 matches showing I could handle myself adequately).

The point is, they happened, and there was little fun to be had during such a long decline. It's not losing that's the problem. The aggregate W/L doesn't tell the whole story. The real issue is that most of the losses were hideously one-sided.

It was more than 'the slightest bit of adversity.'

It's a matter of the stomps not being worth the wins. Because a lot of wins are you just being carried by the same tryhards that will gut your team later that evening, or the next night, as the matchmaker decrees.

Unlike the top tier players, I don't really enjoy being on the good side of a stomp. The best matches are 12-9 (or 9-12) and closer. Those are the ones you enjoy and remember. Losing those isn't very disappointing/boring, because you and your team are alive long enough to actually do stuff. Likewise, when you win, and you're one of the last alive, you feel like you contributed.

12-3 and 3-12 are just repetitive and meaningless blurs. And that's what most of my tier 3 experiences turned into.


Ok, fine. If we take everything you've said at your word, what exactly would you like changed that would solve your problems? It's already been discussed that there are not enough players in tier 1 to sustain a bucket on its own, so that solution is not practical. What in specific can be changed to make you enjoy the game better without wrecking it for other people?

#57 Heavy Money

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 01:17 PM

View PostDing Toast is Ready, on 20 September 2022 - 08:30 AM, said:

The game gives you very little clues if any about how to respond to a given adversity, and people like you clearly don't CARE if players experience adversity that they don't know how to work around or overcome except insofar as it allows you to laugh and mock them.

Who's gonna teach us? You? You, the person who thinks this is hilarious and whose first response to players who are not handling the transition to higher tiers well is "quit whining lol"? I doubt it. Quit being awful to people at lower skill and knowledge levels. Tearing us down makes us hate you, not want to learn from you.


If you're actually looking for people to play with that will help you learn, feel free to add me in game. Or try going to one of the many MWO discords and joining a unit or frequent playgroup. I usually play most US West evenings.

#58 fetzonk

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 07:05 AM

Started playing in August and just got into Tier 3. Today I was matched against a lance of jgrx- and emp-members. It was a quick match. The opponents crushed us easily. I was overwhelmed and couldn't even figure out who destroyed my RT. I still have problems spotting mechs (especially on Manifold, which we were playing).Checked Jarls List and saw that they were top 50 players.

"Get good" just doesn't cut it here. I will never be good enough to have a meaningful impact in a game of that level. The playerbase must be extremely small that i have to be matched against the top 1%. Also I don't understand: How am I even Tier 3? My win ratio ist 0.76 and still I keep climbing. I don't want to climb. I lose more than winning. Feels like being an impostor.

That being said, I like the game a lot and even such losses don't feel nearly as frustrating as being crushed in a game of Apex Legends. It was only one of ten games in Tier 3 were I felt that lost. I hope that this wasn't just luck on my side. The community seems to be great, almost everyone is nice or silent. Before spending any more money on this game though, I will have to play way more matches in Tier 3 and check the matchmaking.

#59 1Exitar1

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 06:53 PM

View Postfetzonk, on 21 September 2022 - 07:05 AM, said:

Started playing in August and just got into Tier 3. Today I was matched against a lance of jgrx- and emp-members. It was a quick match. The opponents crushed us easily. I was overwhelmed and couldn't even figure out who destroyed my RT. I still have problems spotting mechs (especially on Manifold, which we were playing).Checked Jarls List and saw that they were top 50 players.

"Get good" just doesn't cut it here. I will never be good enough to have a meaningful impact in a game of that level. The playerbase must be extremely small that i have to be matched against the top 1%. Also I don't understand: How am I even Tier 3? My win ratio ist 0.76 and still I keep climbing. I don't want to climb. I lose more than winning. Feels like being an impostor.

That being said, I like the game a lot and even such losses don't feel nearly as frustrating as being crushed in a game of Apex Legends. It was only one of ten games in Tier 3 were I felt that lost. I hope that this wasn't just luck on my side. The community seems to be great, almost everyone is nice or silent. Before spending any more money on this game though, I will have to play way more matches in Tier 3 and check the matchmaking.


I was matched against Tier 1 when I was Tier 5. They rolled us of course. Do not take that as a bad sign. Keep playing! You will learn the general patterns people tend to use. Don't be afraid to try other mechs to find one that does well for you. When I was Tier 5 - beginning of 3 I used a Myst Lynx mostly. I then switched to a Fafnir and now that I'm Tier 2, I'm in a Crusader!

Also, when I was leveling up and moved into 3, it took me a little while to STAY in Tier 3! I kept getting bumped down to 4. It took even longer for me to stay in Tier 2 when I got there. I figured that's about as far as I would be able to advance, but I continue to creep up. Last week I got lucky with being grouped with good people and moved up a third of the way in my tier. I'm now about 3/4 of the way to Tier 1.

Don't be afraid to call out on comms if you see someone. I have literally saved my team by calling out that we were getting pushed hard from one flank or another. Then I generally died, but still! LOL

Keep at it! You will get better and move up!

#60 pattonesque

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 07:22 PM

View Post1Exitar1, on 22 September 2022 - 06:53 PM, said:

I was matched against Tier 1 when I was Tier 5. They rolled us of course. Do not take that as a bad sign. Keep playing! You will learn the general patterns people tend to use. Don't be afraid to try other mechs to find one that does well for you. When I was Tier 5 - beginning of 3 I used a Myst Lynx mostly. I then switched to a Fafnir and now that I'm Tier 2, I'm in a Crusader!

Also, when I was leveling up and moved into 3, it took me a little while to STAY in Tier 3! I kept getting bumped down to 4. It took even longer for me to stay in Tier 2 when I got there. I figured that's about as far as I would be able to advance, but I continue to creep up. Last week I got lucky with being grouped with good people and moved up a third of the way in my tier. I'm now about 3/4 of the way to Tier 1.

Don't be afraid to call out on comms if you see someone. I have literally saved my team by calling out that we were getting pushed hard from one flank or another. Then I generally died, but still! LOL

Keep at it! You will get better and move up!


this is the right attitude, notice the lack of immediate surrender and wailing





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