21 replies to this topic

[Cyborne Elemental]

So I'm looking at the (CLAN) MAD-IIC-2 and it only has one quirk.
It also has a small armor bonus as do all Marauder-IIC mechs.

+1 Heavy laser heat spike limit.

All clan mechs can fire 4 medium Heavy lasers synced.
Just not with any small or medium lasers including Pulse additionally.

So, I put in 5 Heavy medium lasers, and nothing else.

Up pops the heatspike warning, I go to testing grounds, and sure enough there is a massive heatspike when firing 4+1 Heavy medium lasers.

So I'm confused.
Why is the quirk there, when it doesn't work.

They have the same range as a regular IS medium laser, and a significant duration when compared, and as much heat as a IS PPC or IS Snub PPC (8).

Is this a bug? Or was the quirk just not written into the code by mistake?

Edited by The Trojan Titan, 27 September 2022 - 09:38 PM.

[Nightbird]

The Trojan Titan, on 27 September 2022 - 09:36 PM, said:

sure enough there is a massive heatspike when firing 4+1 Heavy medium lasers.

Check again, quirk should say HEAVY LARGE LASER HSL+1. Instead of the normal limit of 2, it is 3.

Edited by Nightbird, 27 September 2022 - 09:40 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

it's definitely Heavy LARGE Laser HSL+1

[w0qj]

1. So is this official?

https://mwomercs.com...0-19october2021
MAD-IIC-2: +1 HSL Heavy Large Laser
(and not +1 HSL Heavy Laser ?)

==>At the moment on the Testing Grounds, it really is acting like:
MAD-IIC-2: can fire 3x HLL with no ghost heat penalty (+1 HSL HLL)
MAD-IIC-2: firing 5xHML would trigger the ghost heat penalty (ie: no +1 HSL HML observed in Testing Grounds)

- - - - - - - - - - -
2. Personally I would like to see MAD-IIC-2 with +1 HSL Heavy Laser Family

ie: please also allow MAD-IIC-2 to:
+1 HSL HML also, firing 5x HML is not such a big deal...
The most one can fit into MAD-IIC-2 is 3xHLL + 3xHML, since CT sports 2x energy hardpoints.
Or at most 1xHLL + 5xHML.

- - - - - - - - - - -
3. Shameless plug on:

HSL Quirk List
https://mwomercs.com...-hsl-quirk-list

MWO Patch List
https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes

Edited by w0qj, 27 September 2022 - 10:59 PM.

[Samziel]

The wording is wrong. It is indeed heavy large laser HSL. Though I dont think getting to fire 5 HML is gonna give you any better builds because of the hardpoints. At best you get 5HML+2LL which is worse than 3HLL+4ML you get now.

Edit

Tried adding pics but they dont appear in the comment.

Edited by Samziel, 27 September 2022 - 11:12 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Samziel, on 27 September 2022 - 11:09 PM, said:

Tried adding pics but they dont appear in the comment.

you need to provide a link that ends with a legit picture file extension, like *.png or *.jpg

like this:
https://cdn.discorda...918/unknown.png

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 28 September 2022 - 12:32 AM.

[martian]

Samziel, on 27 September 2022 - 11:09 PM, said:

Tried adding pics but they dont appear in the comment.

You must find some web image hosting (like Imgur or any other service that suits you) and upload your image there.

Then you click "Share your image" there, copy the offered link and insert it in your post here.

[Curccu]

martian, on 28 September 2022 - 12:58 AM, said:

You must find some web image hosting (like Imgur or any other service that suits you) and upload your image there.

Then you click "Share your image" there, copy the offered link and insert it in your post here.

What Aidan Crenshaw said earlier, this ancient forum platform doesn't support or PGI has blocked image linking from urls without image type ending (.jpg .png .gif etc.) and nowdays not all hosting services provide that for example Steam screenshots.

Weird thing is IF I remember correctly steam screenshot links work in post preview but when I actually posted my reply it did not work anymore.

[martian]

Curccu, on 28 September 2022 - 03:17 AM, said:

What Aidan Crenshaw said earlier, this ancient forum platform doesn't support or PGI has blocked image linking from urls without image type ending (.jpg .png .gif etc.) and nowdays not all hosting services provide that for example Steam screenshots.

Weird thing is IF I remember correctly steam screenshot links work in post preview but when I actually posted my reply it did not work anymore.

We may not like it, but we are going to have to stick with this forums platform until the end of MWO.

[Cyborne Elemental]

A decent build for it would be 2 ERLL in the CT, because they're the highest single slot energy mounts right under the cockpit.

With 5 Heavy Medium on the arms for CQB, since they're so low, and you have to expose 80% of your mech just to fire from the arm slots.

But yes.

The quirk reads verbatim.
HEAVY LASER HSL +1

not HEAVY LARGE LASER HSL +1

What if I want to put 4 Heavy medium and 1 Heavy small or a Medpulse on that super low slot?

I would much prefer a +1 Heavy Laser of anykind vs only the Large Heavy.
Then you can make it situational on your playstyle.

TBH, at this point of cheese powercreep. I would rather see all heatspike limits removed.
Lasers are still inferior to most other weapons since they don't roll much crit, and its just alot of facetime.

Edited by The Trojan Titan, 28 September 2022 - 04:21 AM.

[Curccu]

The Trojan Titan, on 28 September 2022 - 03:48 AM, said:

A decent build for it would be 2 ERLL in the CT, because they're the highest single slot energy mounts right under the cockpit.

With 5 Heavy Medium on the arms for CQB, since they're so low, and you have to expose 80% of your mech just to fire from the arm slots.

But yes.

The quirk reads verbatim.
HEAVY LASER HSL +1

not HEAVY LARGE LASER HSL +1

Yes Patchnotes and even in-game quirk says "Heavy Laser HSL +1" but MechDB which rips info from gamefiles shows "heavy large laser hsl+1" + in-game mechlab gives ghost heat warning if you have more than 4 heavy medium lasers for example and does not do that when I have 3x HLLs. So most likely typo from PGI. I don't have the mech and not interested buying that kind of crap mech for testing purpose.

The Trojan Titan, on 28 September 2022 - 03:48 AM, said:

TBH, at this point of cheese powercreep. I would rather see all heatspike limits removed.
Lasers are still inferior to most other weapons since they don't roll much crit, and its just alot of facetime.

Removing ghost heat would make totally sick laser assaults and heavies cERLL / cLPL / LPL alphas would become insane
Lasers inferior weapons? Because of crits? Thats new one(s)....

[Cyborne Elemental]

I already had the mech from years ago, I just came back to play after 3 years to see if the game was worth playing again.

So, it was just sitting in my mechbay and I thought I would give it a try.

I built the mech with 3 HLL and 4 ERML and a mountain of DHS, and its a 80 damage alpha..ok.
I get 2 alphas running full throttle and if I override I have 100% heat peak but not enough to cause internal damage.
I think that is a ridiculous build as is.

Allowing for 5 HML and 2 ERLL, I'm down to a 72 alpha, but to hit that damage I have to be at 270 meters.
The other build is 80 in 1.2 seconds facetime at 450 meters.

And yes, with out a targeting computer, lasers do less crit to kill weapons and equipment vs Pulse, PPC's, machineguns, LBX.

[w0qj]

And a warm welcome back to MWO!

It's a whole new ballgame now, with new quirks across the board, and weapon behavior changes as below!

You also need to look at the weapon hardpoint height as well.
Both MAD-II and MAD-IIC mech chassis have its arm hardpoints are lower down. Harder to hit enemy over hill hump, or over a ledge.
Its CT/LT/RT weapon hardpoints are about cockpit level; aka what you see is what you hit!

Hence the key weakness of MAD-IIC-2: its primary weapons are in its arms, lower down.

The MAD-IIC primary weapons can be in its CT/LT/RT, much higher up, what you see is what you hit! Crazy laser vomit output!

In fact, the slightly lower laser output Stalker STK-7D is popular, because:
a) All of its weapons are cockpit level, in CT/LT/RT/head, aka what you see is what you hit!
b ) STK-7D drives like a Clan mech; agile/fast like the MAD-IIC actually.

Do have fun choosing your laser vomit mech!

===========================
Major weapon behavior changes:
===========================

IS: STD Large Lasers: increased to firing 4x at once without ghost heat penalty.

IS: STD PPC: increased to firing 3x at once without ghost heat penalty.
IS: STD PPC: does slight (exponential decay) damage below minimum range (similar to Clan LRM).

IS: Light-PPC: no minimum range anymore.

IS: Snub-Nose-PPC: decreased back down to firing 2x at once without ghost heat penalty (June-2022 patch)
IS: Snub-Nose-PPC: does splash damage (similar to Clan ER-PPC), damage profile 2.5 / 10 / 2.5

IS: Light-Gauss: [Maintenance_HSL]: changed to "no" ghost heat penalty (can only charge/fire 2x at once though).
IS: Light-Gauss: no longer part of ghost heat linked penalty group of IS Gauss Family & IS PPC Family.

IS: STD SRM4: increased to firing 5x at once without ghost heat penalty.

IS: Rocket Launcher: does slight (exponential decay) damage below minimum range (similar to Clan LRM).

IS: CASE: now 0 tons, still consume 1x critical slot. Equippable in Arm, Leg, Left/Right Torso.

IS & Clan: AMS ammo does not explode anymore upon crit.

IS & Clan: MASC redline threshold increased to 85% (from 75%); MASC lasts longer (fill rate decreased).

Clan: ER-Micro-Laser: changed to "no" ghost heat penalty (fire as many as you want at once!)

Clan: Micro-Pulse-Laser: increased to firing 12x at once without ghost heat penalty.
Clan: Micro-Pulse-Laser: no longer part of ghost heat linked penalty group of Clan ER-Micro-Laser.

Clan: AC5: increased to firing 4x AC5 at once without ghost heat penalty.
Clan: AC5: decreased to 1x projectile shell per shot (down from 2x).

Clan: AC10: decreased to 2x projectile shells per shot (down from 3x).

Clan: AC20: increased to firing 2x AC20 at once without ghost heat penalty.
Clan: AC20: decreased to 3x projectile shells per shot (down from 4x).

Clan: ATM3: increased to firing 6x ATM3 at once without ghost heat penalty.

Note: [Maintenance_HSL] = Since one can only charge/fire a maximum of 2x Gauss of any kind at once,
the [Maintenance_HSL] is devised to overcome the PPC/Gauss linked Ghost Heat penalty group.

===========================
Useful sources of information:
https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/mechs
https://mwo.nav-alph...pment/ghostheat
https://mwo.nav-alph...uipment/weapons
https://mwo.nav-alph...uipment/modules

https://mwomercs.com...-hsl-quirk-list
https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes

Edited by w0qj, 28 September 2022 - 09:31 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Here's what you want.
https://mwo.nav-alph...5c958b_MAD-IIC2

Take Heat Containment and you can alpha it all.

ERLL builds with it are not worthwhile. Those 2 center torso mounts are only a small amount above the highest arm mounts. The point of this mech is a giant alpha strike.

If you aren't running a giant alpha build like this, you're better off with a regular MAD-IIC with 3LPL+6ERML in almost all cases. You can do DHS builds, but generally you're better off with other MAD-IICs for that.

[PocketYoda]

Heavy Money, on 28 September 2022 - 05:44 PM, said:

Here's what you want.
https://mwo.nav-alph...5c958b_MAD-IIC2

Take Heat Containment and you can alpha it all.

ERLL builds with it are not worthwhile. Those 2 center torso mounts are only a small amount above the highest arm mounts. The point of this mech is a giant alpha strike.

If you aren't running a giant alpha build like this, you're better off with a regular MAD-IIC with 3LPL+6ERML in almost all cases. You can do DHS builds, but generally you're better off with other MAD-IICs for that.

Firepower 91.5 and they say ghost heat brings Clan mechs into line with IS.. That really isn't happening.. Whats the point when you only need to alpha everything once.. Crazy.

[Heavy Money]

Nomad Tech, on 28 September 2022 - 07:13 PM, said:

Firepower 91.5 and they say ghost heat brings Clan mechs into line with IS.. That really isn't happening.. Whats the point when you only need to alpha everything once.. Crazy.

Well, the heat is terrible. Even coolshotting doesn't get you to a second alpha without a wait. So its very vulnerable to being pushed. Generally, you're better off just playing a regular MAD-IIC with 3LPL+6ERML. Lower alpha but much more economical.

There are also IS mechs that can do some giant alphas if you're willing to get this hot. They aren't quite as high in damage, but they tend to be pinpoint or at least lower burn duration.

This loadout is not imbalanced by any means.

[w0qj]

I got the MAD-IIC(S) to qualify for the Annual Rewards for this year; it's a crazy vomit output on level ground.
My STK-7D(S) is more for hill ridge peeking, or shooting down over the ledge (Canyon Network, etc.). Amazing laser vomit also!

Why is why I personally feel that QP should not let you choose from a drop deck... it kills mech variety... but we're getting off topic here...

Heavy Money, on 28 September 2022 - 08:57 PM, said:

Well, the heat is terrible. Even coolshotting doesn't get you to a second alpha without a wait. So its very vulnerable to being pushed. Generally, you're better off just playing a regular MAD-IIC with 3LPL+6ERML. Lower alpha but much more economical.

There are also IS mechs that can do some giant alphas if you're willing to get this hot. They aren't quite as high in damage, but they tend to be pinpoint or at least lower burn duration.

This loadout is not imbalanced by any means.

Edited by w0qj, 28 September 2022 - 09:34 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Yeah, MAD-IIC and STK-7D are the laservom kings. And are a good example of the pros and cons of both IS and Clan style lasers.

MAD-IIC-2 is more specialized and borders on being a meme. If people realize what you are doing and push you, its over.

[Samziel]

Heavy Money, on 28 September 2022 - 08:57 PM, said:

Well, the heat is terrible. Even coolshotting doesn't get you to a second alpha without a wait. So its very vulnerable to being pushed. Generally, you're better off just playing a regular MAD-IIC with 3LPL+6ERML. Lower alpha but much more economical.

There are also IS mechs that can do some giant alphas if you're willing to get this hot. They aren't quite as high in damage, but they tend to be pinpoint or at least lower burn duration.

This loadout is not imbalanced by any means.

You can also go DHS and 3HLL and 4ML with almost max engine. Much better cooling brings it up par with MAD-IIC and the build you said. I play both and theyre both great fun. Only thing bad about the 2 is big guns in arms so you can have hard time with terrain. It gets jumpjets though and them with the speed it gets is superb.

Edited by Samziel, 28 September 2022 - 11:22 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Samziel, on 28 September 2022 - 11:20 PM, said:

You can also go DHS and 3HLL and 4ML with almost max engine. Much better cooling brings it up par with MAD-IIC and the build you said. I play both and theyre both great fun. Only thing bad about the 2 is big guns in arms so you can have hard time with terrain. It gets jumpjets though and them with the speed it gets is superb.

Yeah. Generally that isn't as good as a MAD-IIC because of less range, worse burn time, less hardpoints, etc. The point of it is the JJs. Generally that isn't enough, but its still good and fun to play.