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Ngngtv Podcast With Matt And Daeron


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#41 sycocys

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 07:21 AM

View PostShooteyMcShooterson, on 11 March 2023 - 06:44 PM, said:

Where's that? Here on the forum, or elsewhere?

https://mwomercs.com...7-lrms-balance/

Some guys that watch his videos have linked his "data" video expanding on his rant while apparently running a group to support his lrm platform.

Overall though it explains the recent quirk changes that overbuff certain mechs that were already performing well, and nerfs to mechs that can compete with their choice of meta builds and strategy.

As far as I can see since I returned the cauldron hasn't really been about balance, but about using their group to backdoor in changes to support their style of play.

#42 Vsolid

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 07:29 AM

The talk of dropdecks for QP makes me excited.

#43 sycocys

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 07:30 AM

View PostSteel Shanks, on 11 March 2023 - 11:27 AM, said:

Canon Builds for Faction Play would be great too...

Canon builds are inherently very imbalanced, doubly so because clans drop the same numbers.

Pre-built, balanced (side to side) drop decks with no skills or consumables might be a better approach. Granted most players wouldn't like that, but it would make the mode accessible to everyone and skill would be the deciding factor rather than who had the longer range/higher dps meta/most ecm across the board.

#44 smokefield

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 07:44 AM

View PostAlreech, on 12 March 2023 - 04:53 AM, said:

No causual player in quickplay is using MWOs build in VOIP.
.........



you've explained some differences, but not at all why playing in a team = cheating...?

everything you said is available for all players, nothing is restricted "just" to someone. make friends, drop together, improve. we all started in this point...


View PostDivkrd, on 12 March 2023 - 07:13 AM, said:

You confused "casual players" with "noobs". I'm a casual, and im nowhere near to what you're talking about. You're trying to hide your incompetence and inablity to adapt behind word "casual", but in fact you're just another lazy person, who thinks that the only way to play the game, is your way, like with groups for example, you basicaly saying: "i'm too lazy to learn how to fight groups, remove them so i could have fun without bothering about anything". How about "NO"? There are plenty of people who only play this game because they can group up with friends, not everyone in this community is socialy awkward sociophobe.

Everyone in QP have the same "privilege of good communication and coordination", that's your fault that you're not using it.


thank you for addressing the elephant in the room. if i would have said that, imagine the rage...cause i am advocating in favor of playing with my friends (that i have created in the game...)

#45 Divkrd

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 07:58 AM

View Postsmokefield, on 12 March 2023 - 07:44 AM, said:

thank you for addressing the elephant in the room. if i would have said that, imagine the rage...cause i am advocating in favor of playing with my friends (that i have created in the game...)

We're in the same boat mate, i'm playing with my friend, and that's the only reason i'm still playing. Solo is just boring.

Edited by Divkrd, 12 March 2023 - 07:58 AM.


#46 BLACKR0SE

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 09:16 AM

I hope it comes in solo mode. this avoids a lack of communication.
removes an obligation. Not everyone who plays games has to be in communication.
What are the chances of a player playing solo against groups playing in communication?
Or how much does it enjoy?

It would also be a good section to test yourself.
This does not upset the existing balance.
It just gives people a choice.
It adds variety to the game.

#47 BLACKR0SE

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 09:20 AM

I'm translating your speeches as you write here.
I am answering by translating.
but it is impossible to do this in game with voice.

#48 BLACKR0SE

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 10:10 AM

I'm already playing alone. Posted Image

#49 Kotis77

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 10:39 AM

PGI talking about hindsight, but still wanna do MM changes inhouse. PGI still doesnt understand match quality= dead game or healty game. They could succeed with it or not, but they have tried it once and its garbage.


Why not give Cauldron MM code? Or why not release to public? There is alot of ppl with passion on this game and there should be guys who understand something about code, algorithms and math.

#50 Roodkapje

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 11:20 AM

View PostAlreech, on 11 March 2023 - 04:05 AM, said:

Sounds like a great way to waste money AND to upset the die hard solo players that hate even 4 player groups because those cheat with private VOIPs and teamwork (a no go in any team based shooter).

LOL! You are funny! Posted Image

My annoyance with Group Drops is that usually their skill level is so low that you might as well NOT play that round and quit immediately... Posted Image

The ratio of skilled vs. unskilled groups that are dropping together is something like 1:10 or worse in my experience!

And THAT is the reason I would like to see them removed from Quick Play a.s.a.p. !!! Posted Image

View Postsmokefield, on 11 March 2023 - 08:13 AM, said:

I will never understand how voip is cheating, for one you have the same option in the game, and second, its all about team work. since when teamwork is cheating? please explain

Only one way : To have a "spy" in the other team, but that is rarely the case in MWO Posted Image

He is just being stupid... no other word for it!

Quote

did stomps went away in any form? cause i see daily them, and there rarely a 4 man group.

I dont think it is fair to punish team play and groups because some people cannotimprove their game. we got stomped, multiple times in a row, each one challenged us to be better. but i think this comes with life experience, cannot ask it from younger people...

I can't become better if there are 4 low skilled Group Drop players in my time each time that make us lose!

THAT is the actual PROBLEM here! Posted Image

View PostSteel Shanks, on 11 March 2023 - 11:21 AM, said:

Look, Groups is NOT an issue for God's sake... At least in Tier 3-5 where I play.
Having a 4-Man or 2-Man does not decide battles.

It does, just the other way around in my experience, while everyone else seems to think it makes a team OP Posted Image

Quote

How bout FACTION BASED things? Make Players WANT to play for Marik, Davion, Steiner, etc. Faction Mechs? In PROPER Faction Colors? Like a Griffin in Marik Militia Scheme?

That would be great, but I don't see it happening anytime soon now that the amount of MWO players is soo low...

View PostGas Guzzler, on 11 March 2023 - 12:07 PM, said:

@Daeron

I feel you brother, still on a 4790k machine, my GPU carries me through for now, but DDR3 really ages my machine.

I don't see the issue when it comes to MWO to be honest ?!

And your PC is still better than many of the much older and worse specced PC's and Laptops that I see mentioned from time to time on this forum! Posted Image

View PostSteel Shanks, on 11 March 2023 - 02:31 PM, said:

Stick to yer 6 ER Larges then, lots of skill using a build like that lol...

Actually I have a nice little DWF with 8 x ER LARGE LASER on it and for a silly build meant for Faction Warfare on the Defense side it works very decently in Quick Play too! Posted Image

View PostShooteyMcShooterson, on 11 March 2023 - 06:37 PM, said:

I literally don't care what else they do to the matchmaker, just so long as they get the groups out of QP. Group queue should be its own queue, or not exist in quick play mode at all.

They never should have been there in the first place.

AMEN! brother! Posted Image

View PostShooteyMcShooterson, on 11 March 2023 - 06:44 PM, said:

Groups never should have been put in the quick play solo queue. From the perspective of a casual player, it's far and away the biggest mistake they've ever made. Every casual player knows after playing QP for a while that it's pointless. You're either one of the tryhards in a group farming everyone else, or you're the meat. QP soup queue is a total bullsh*t game mode anymore.

Groups are not the problem there : The currently low skilled players are a bigger problem!

I have beaten or even stomped many group drops by getting my team to do the right thing in the right mechs with a proper loadout at that moment! Posted Image

However when I see something like a KGC-000 with 6 x LMG on it then you can't really expect to win can you ?!
Or people just standing still and looking at their teammate getting shot to pieces on his own while they are in cover... HORRIBLE!!! Posted Image

View PostHorseman, on 12 March 2023 - 01:00 AM, said:

You realize that the Quick Play leaderboards are public and therefore it's pretty clear you haven't played 10 QP matches in any given calendar month since mid-2016? https://leaderboard....0engine%20light

So that's where that stuff comes from!

Too bad you can't OPT-OUT or can you ?! Posted Image

View Post-K H A N, on 12 March 2023 - 01:41 AM, said:

I dont have a 6 ERLL mech,But Im going to make one now.

Go for 8 my guy! Posted Image Posted Image

View PostAlreech, on 12 March 2023 - 04:53 AM, said:

No causual player in quickplay is using MWOs build in VOIP.

Because of kids and trolls : TRUE! Posted Image

Quote

First most players use funny names no one can remember or pronounce, second why bothering with memorizing the names if the team has total different players in the next match?
Third no one is listening if you tell them via VOIP "name" there is an enemy behind you...

Also not all players in the team speak the same language (english & french in north america, english, french, german, italian, spanish in europe) and not all players know how to communicate via voip (using grid coordinates instead their own mechs orientation, ect...)

Players in a group mostly have their own private VOIP solution like Teamspeak or Discord, know each other and can communicate much better. They can also coordinate their mech loadouts so that they have compatible speed and weapons and at least one mech carries ECM and stuff like TAG/NARC spotters and LRM mechs work.
Causual players that drop into quickplay don't have that privilege of good communication and coordination, so groups should not be in quickplay.
Removing groups from quickplay and let have the causuals quickplay as playground is the obvious solution to that problem.

The above however is just simply not true for everyone! Posted Image

View PostDivkrd, on 12 March 2023 - 07:13 AM, said:

You confused "casual players" with "noobs".

Currently MWO is full of them sadly! Posted Image

Quote

I'm a casual, and im nowhere near to what you're talking about. You're trying to hide your incompetence and inablity to adapt behind word "casual", but in fact you're just another lazy person, who thinks that the only way to play the game, is your way, like with groups for example, you basicaly saying: "i'm too lazy to learn how to fight groups, remove them so i could have fun without bothering about anything". How about "NO"? There are plenty of people who only play this game because they can group up with friends, not everyone in this community is socialy awkward sociophobe.

Everyone in QP have the same "privilege of good communication and coordination", that's your fault that you're not using it.

I agree but disagree about groups : They should have their own queue and fight it our seperated from the rest of the players who drop solo Posted Image

When my team loses it's pretty much always because of low skilled group drops, often 4 of them! Posted Image

View PostTAMTAMBABY, on 12 March 2023 - 09:20 AM, said:

I'm translating your speeches as you write here.
I am answering by translating.
but it is impossible to do this in game with voice.

But you can just follow your team (Minimap!) and not go Rambo on your own! Posted Image

View PostTAMTAMBABY, on 12 March 2023 - 10:10 AM, said:

I'm already playing alone. Posted Image

Me too, but at the same time hang out with people on TeamSpeak who are playing other games or simply doing something else than gaming Posted Image

#51 sycocys

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 12:02 PM

One thing they could maybe consider in terms of separating out groups is to put a limit on is so groups drop only with tier 3 and up, so tier 4/5 solos only run into solos.

Also wouldn't hurt if they stop dropping multiple cadets into the same side of a match that's mixing t3/2/1 players in. At least split them up.

-One of the main reasons people use other software for voip is because it was somewhere around 3 years in before PGI finally managed to add it to the game, most of us that were running in groups and units were already shifted to alternative communications by that point.
The other big one is that they can continue to communicate between matches, so there's a huge failure in their implementation there.

#52 BLACKR0SE

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 12:34 PM

View PostRoodkapje, on 12 March 2023 - 11:20 AM, said:

LOL! You are funny! Posted Image

My annoyance with Group Drops is that usually their skill level is so low that you might as well NOT play that round and quit immediately... Posted Image

The ratio of skilled vs. unskilled groups that are dropping together is something like 1:10 or worse in my experience!

And THAT is the reason I would like to see them removed from Quick Play a.s.a.p. !!! Posted Image


Only one way : To have a "spy" in the other team, but that is rarely the case in MWO Posted Image

He is just being stupid... no other word for it!


I can't become better if there are 4 low skilled Group Drop players in my time each time that make us lose!

THAT is the actual PROBLEM here! Posted Image


It does, just the other way around in my experience, while everyone else seems to think it makes a team OP Posted Image


That would be great, but I don't see it happening anytime soon now that the amount of MWO players is soo low...


I don't see the issue when it comes to MWO to be honest ?!

And your PC is still better than many of the much older and worse specced PC's and Laptops that I see mentioned from time to time on this forum! Posted Image


Actually I have a nice little DWF with 8 x ER LARGE LASER on it and for a silly build meant for Faction Warfare on the Defense side it works very decently in Quick Play too! Posted Image


AMEN! brother! Posted Image


Groups are not the problem there : The currently low skilled players are a bigger problem!

I have beaten or even stomped many group drops by getting my team to do the right thing in the right mechs with a proper loadout at that moment! Posted Image

However when I see something like a KGC-000 with 6 x LMG on it then you can't really expect to win can you ?!
Or people just standing still and looking at their teammate getting shot to pieces on his own while they are in cover... HORRIBLE!!! Posted Image


So that's where that stuff comes from!

Too bad you can't OPT-OUT or can you ?! Posted Image


Go for 8 my guy! Posted Image Posted Image


Because of kids and trolls : TRUE! Posted Image


The above however is just simply not true for everyone! Posted Image


Currently MWO is full of them sadly! Posted Image


I agree but disagree about groups : They should have their own queue and fight it our seperated from the rest of the players who drop solo Posted Image

When my team loses it's pretty much always because of low skilled group drops, often 4 of them! Posted Image


But you can just follow your team (Minimap!) and not go Rambo on your own! Posted Image


Me too, but at the same time hang out with people on TeamSpeak who are playing other games or simply doing something else than gaming Posted Image


Does the team matter when you can't get along?
As long as there is no harmony, I don't think teams matter.

I don't mean together.
attack together. retreat together.
the fact that the player on your team knows when your armor is weakened.
the attack of your neighbor while you fall.
I think compatibility is important.

I'm aware of what you're saying.
I see the mini map and the big map.
I see the enemy as well as the friend.
but it's good to know that someone who will accompany you when your ammo runs out.

or to warn.
Good thing someone on your team warned you.


if they don't. Are you any different from an AI?


If you can't express yourself, if you can't get along, does the team matter?

When you turn your back and can't find anybody, you have to be a rambo, sorry Posted Image




hahahahahha

Edited by TAMTAMBABY, 12 March 2023 - 01:10 PM.


#53 BLACKR0SE

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 12:45 PM

only leader marks.

actually simple dialogs can be added.
back off.
attack.
defense.
I'm out of ammo.
etc.

#54 BLACKR0SE

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 01:11 PM

no pain rocky..

would be a nice decal :)

#55 Crashburn

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 01:22 PM

Here are my thoughts on MM. I can only speak for the matches I usually get. But if I can correctly guess the match outcome (9 out of 10x) at match start just by the names I see on each 12 man, it isn't balanced, nor is MM working properly. If it's that easy to predict, then Tier 1 matches shouldn't be hard to balance.

MM: There are many matches with groups where 1 side has 5 or 6 elite comp level Tier 1 players. Players from units like JGX/EMP/ABIN/G-NX, etc. Whereas, the other team doesn't have a single player from a unit of comparable skill/stature. I'll also add the caveat that there may be a couple extra elite players that I don't recognize (EU/OCE server players). So that's 5/6 elite players on 1 team and the other team has at best maybe 2 mid tier 1 but usually not from an elite unit. You can guess what the result is. Usually I'll see this 5 or 6 matches in a row. I just can't see how PGI can defend MM and say this is balanced, and the best they can do.

Sean's video touched on this point slightly when he mentioned MM grouping Data (playing solo) being grouped with Sean's 4 man group. Later on Matt mentioned how group play was tweaked and now only allows a total of 4 grouped players on each team. So either 1 4-man, 3-man or 2 2-man teams.

The problem with MM is that it manages to team up 1 or more solo elite Tier 1 players in the queues that already have an elite 2,3,4-man group. This should never be a solvable solution in MM but it occurs consistently. In a group queue solution if you have an elite 2x2, 3, or 4 man team, MM should never throw extra elite Solo players on the same team as the elite groups.

I think MM could fix this by first coming up with it's 2 - 12 man teams in a first pass. And then once it's locks in the 24 players for the QP match. Have MM do a secondary pass, where it checks the groups for the elite players and then if it sees let's say a 6v2 spread of elite players. It swaps the solo elite players from 1 team to the the other in a 1 for 1 swap.

So Team 1: originally had 6 elite players. Team 2: has 2 elite players. Team 1 elite's are comprised of a 4 -man and 2 solo's. MM on the 2nd pass would identify the two solo's and then try to swap them to team 2, switching out the same weight class of mech they are in for 2 solo players from team 2 who are not either of their elite players. This would make it 4v4 elite players per team. Also, PGI should be able to identify the top 200/500/1000 (the cutoff being whatever PGI/Cauldron deems plausible) players that would allow them to identify and swap Elite players to correctly balance teams.

In the end I think this makes sense, now is it easy or plausible to code into the game (i don't know), but I believe it makes sense. Especially if we want to keep group/solo queue merged.

Or perhaps create a new Tier (Tier 0) and this Tier is not one you can obtain by grinding in the game. Either Tier 0 players are manually entered by PGI (elite comp unit players only designated as Tier 0, or it's a straight userbase drop of the top 200/500 players in game. Then adjust MM to require Tier 0 players be evenly distributed between teams, as best you can regardless of Mech class.

I'm kind of curious as to what other's players thoughts are on this. Do you agree...think this is fair...does it make sense on at least a balance basis?

I know guys like Gas Guzzler, Kotis, K H A N, Navid and the player base on here who are part of the Cauldron, read these forums. I'm interested in what you guys think since I lump you in as part of the "elite" Tier 1 group of players. I'm not sure how much PGI reads this, but maybe if one of you who have the ear of PGI, can pass some of these points along, maybe 1/10 of what I wrote will give them a new perspective or a partial solution they haven't thought of yet.

Edited by Crashburn, 12 March 2023 - 01:39 PM.


#56 BLACKR0SE

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 01:33 PM

I'm sure they will find the most logical solutions assuming they actually watch or can watch all the matches. Everything said here is individual. Everyone answers from their own perspective.

#57 BLACKR0SE

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 01:37 PM

i believe this. It's not all about statistics. each setting has a practical aspect and usability.
Observing is something different.

Edited by TAMTAMBABY, 12 March 2023 - 01:38 PM.


#58 Staude Coston

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 01:43 PM

The truth is that PGI doesn't introduce even the simplest things like
anti-cheating software for the players in this game
is standard for other games but it costs money
Cheating in this game has long been known to players, nothing is done

#59 KeZangaren777

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 03:16 PM

View PostStaude, on 12 March 2023 - 01:43 PM, said:

The truth is that PGI doesn't introduce even the simplest things like
anti-cheating software for the players in this game
is standard for other games but it costs money
Cheating in this game has long been known to players, nothing is done


Can you give an example what kind of cheat that player did?

#60 simon1812

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 03:58 PM

I had the impression that when PGI wanted to experiment, that's what queue events were for....right?





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