162 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

JediPanther, on 19 August 2023 - 06:50 PM, said:

Quit bitching and crying to pgi to keep up the one way balancing of lrms.
1. (all lrms) Missile speed is reduced to 190 m/s (from 210 m/s) - This change affects the Direct fire speed at the same percentage.
2. adr-a Added -7.5% Missile spread in LA,RA
3. PXH-R Removed -10% Missile cooldown
4. gar-prime Removed -10% Missile cooldown from SO8
5. stk-m Removed -10% Missile cooldown
5 lrm nefrs in ONE GOD DAM PATCH. And these are only the ones listed. Going through all the quirks,skill trees and tc buff/nerfs they haven't listed.Where are the GLOBAL NERFS to other weapons?

They are removing Missile Cooldowns but adding generic Cooldowns, that are actually a net buff.
There's also a ton of big velocity buffs in the patch.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 20 August 2023 - 04:04 AM.

[Vonbach]

Lrms need buffs and substantial ones at that. Or better yet make all the gauss and lazor snipers have to get locks to fire. I'd love to listen to them screech.

Edited by Vonbach, 20 August 2023 - 04:35 AM.

[Luckless Horn]

feeWAIVER, on 20 August 2023 - 04:02 AM, said:

They are removing Missile Cooldowns but adding generic Cooldowns, that are actually a net buff.
There's also a ton of big velocity buffs in the patch.

To expand on this specifically for the mechs JediPanther pointed out the LRM nerfs on, here are the net effects of changes that apply to LRMs:

ADR-A
-7.5% missile spread is a buff, so not sure why it was mentioned, but here are the net changes:
Removed -4% LRM spread LA, RA (total -8% removed), added -7.5% missile spread LA, RA (total -15% added). Net effect LRM spread reduced 7% (buff)
-Added 15% missile range SO8, 5% range SO8. Net effect LRM range +20% (buff)
-Added 20% missile velocity SO8 (buff)

PXH-R
-Removed -10% missile cooldown, increased cooldown from -10% to -30%. Net effect is a reduction in LRM cooldown from -20% to -30% (buff)
-Increased missile ammo per ton bonus from 50% to 75% (buff)
-Added 20% weapon velocity (buff)

GAR-PRIME
-Removed -2.5% missile spread LA, RA (total -5% removed), added -7.5% weapon spread LA, RA (total -15% added), added -10% spread SO8. Net effect missile spread reduced by 20% (buff)
-Removed -5% missile cooldown LA, RA, removed -2.5% cooldown LT, RT, removed -10% missile cooldown SO8 (total -25% cooldown removed), added -10% cooldown LA, RA, -25% cooldown SO8 (total -35% cooldown added). Net effect cooldown reduced 10% (buff)
-Weapon velocity changed from 5% to 15% LT, RT. Net effect LRM velocity improved 20% (buff)

STK-M
-Removed -10% missile cooldown, added -15% cooldown. Net effect LRM cooldown reduced 5% (buff)

Literally every example JediPanther listed as LRM nerfs for a mech were situations where that mech actually received a buff.

[MyriadDigits]

Ah don't use logic Luckless Horn, how else can the masses be convinced that LRMs are being nerfed?

[Captain Caveman DE]

first off: no fan of 24/7-idf-lurms. at all.

then again: not seeing where this nerf is coming from.


lurms were in a good spot atm, and I guess that's why the need to pushed away from that. after all, we didn't have a proper cryb*by-"lurms are OP/useless"thread in a while. somebody urges to change that.
so thx for that, whoever you are.

otoh: nerf won't affect my lurming at all, since at ~300mtrs the change in real time won't be that big. so not concerned.


also: @people, just "learn" from this; you know who's been crying about them in every thread he opens, when he's not crying about lights ofc. so act accordingly and "support" your local longrange-troll from behind him (if there IS room between his mech and the map-edge).
also something you learn in factionplay: friendly fire is not.
except those times it is ;-)

[Bassault]

Runecarver, on 19 August 2023 - 11:44 PM, said:

Hitscan lasers that require you to only keep tracking your target for just over a second, and ballistics with enough velocity that you don't have to lead your shots nor account for any bullet drop are clearly much higher skill requiring than a weapon that requires you to similarly track your target, but for 3-8 seconds depending on distance and one that spread all over the target. And particularly these bigger lasers have nearly twice the total range of said missiles.

I'm not sure if you have a lot of experience aiming. You see simply hitting the enemy mech isn't enough. You have to hit the same component over and over. When an enemy mech is moving around (an enemy not in tier 3, 4 or 5), getting a steady laser burn is a bit more difficult and ballistics actually require an immense amount of effort and leading to hit the same spot over and over. Meanwhile with LRMs you just press R and the game plays for you. Please do not ever think that the skill required to use direct fire is even close to minimum and only requirement to use indirect fire. This isn't an opinion, this is the truth. Indirect fire takes no skill to use and so it should remain weak. Players should not be rewarded for not playing the game (using lrms). Furthermore, LRMs are incredibly frustrating for everyone, especially new players.

Edited by Bassault, 20 August 2023 - 06:25 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly i am not a big fan of going from a semi specific buff (say missile since we are talking LRM) to a the generic all weapons get the buff. i don't mind so much if a mech that has a specific quirk (say LRM Spread) and making it to that weapon group (so here it would be Missiles). don't get me wrong i do like having weapon specific Quirks on mechs as it makes certain mechs feel more unique. hell i think every Hero Mech should have some Unique Quirk though it would still have to be balanced (take the MRM/10 Velocity Quirk that the Uziel-Belial got last patch, yeah it sounds huge but its for only MRM/10 and the mech can only carry 2 of them). for some mechs its not as big a deal as others since within the same chassis you often have a good enough amount of variation within that chassis. with some though its pretty much the quirks that make each variant different (the Black Knight is one such mech as well as the Grasshopper both are pretty much all energy and nothing else across the whole chassis (if i remember right the Grasshopper has a Missile point in the head but no one ever uses it). in both of these the only outliers are the Heroes.

then again i am a Lore hound so Quirks that pertain to a mech's stock usage in universe i find more appealing . you will always have outliers like say the Catapult and Urbanmech that were massively adapted and modified. the whole "if it fits it works, If it works Do it" mentality of the Catapult (in Lore those arm pods are easily removable and modified. sort of like a proto-Omnimech). its why in Lore there are so many variants of those two mechs.

i personally think that the target decay skill nodes should directly counter the radar dep nodes. so if you have all the delay nodes then it would negate all the dep nodes

(side note-- i would consider the removal of the Sensor Range Quirks on the Phoenix Hawks a nerf to LRM if in a round about way. keep in mind that ECM effects the adjusted sensor range of a mech so if you have say a BAP on a mech it will still have an increased range over a mech that doesn't have it when getting a target lock on the same ECM mech.)

[Nyandere]

JediPanther, on 19 August 2023 - 06:50 PM, said:

Quit bitching and crying to pgi to keep up the one way balancing of lrms.
1. (all lrms) Missile speed is reduced to 190 m/s (from 210 m/s) - This change affects the Direct fire speed at the same percentage.
2. adr-a Added -7.5% Missile spread in LA,RA
3. PXH-R Removed -10% Missile cooldown
4. gar-prime Removed -10% Missile cooldown from SO8
5. stk-m Removed -10% Missile cooldown
5 lrm nefrs in ONE GOD DAM PATCH. And these are only the ones listed. Going through all the quirks,skill trees and tc buff/nerfs they haven't listed.Where are the GLOBAL NERFS to other weapons?

2. ADR-A
Removed -4% LRM Spread from LA, RA
Added 5% Range in SO8
Added 15% Missile range in SO8
Added 20% Missile velocity in SO8
Added -7.5% Missile spread in LA,RA

This is a buff. 3.5% spread reduction, less spread is an improvement.

not a nerf...


3.PXH-R
Removed -10% Missile cooldown
Increased Cooldown to -30% (from -10%)

This is also a 20% cooldown buff to LRMs.

not a nerf...


4. GAR-Prime
Removed -5% Missile cooldown from LA and RA
Added -10% cooldown in LA and RA

This is a 10% buff to LRMs.

not a nerf...


5.STK-M
Removed -10% Missile cooldown
Added -15% Cooldown

This is a 5% buff to LRM cooldown.

not a nerf...


If you're going to be outraged about something, at least try being honest. 4/5 of the nerfs you listed are BUFFS to LRMs.

edit: Luckless already said all of this, i'm keeping this post up anyway.

Edited by Nyandere, 20 August 2023 - 07:12 AM.

[martian]

Bassault, on 20 August 2023 - 06:24 AM, said:

Furthermore, LRMs are incredibly frustrating for everyone, especially new players.

Personally, LRMs are more like annoyance for me.

Anyway, any player can equip his 'Mech with AMS. Actually, I know only about two MWO 'Mechs that can not carry AMS.

[VeeOt Dragon]

Bassault, on 20 August 2023 - 06:24 AM, said:

I'm not sure if you have a lot of experience aiming. You see simply hitting the enemy mech isn't enough. You have to hit the same component over and over. When an enemy mech is moving around (an enemy not in tier 3, 4 or 5), getting a steady laser burn is a bit more difficult and ballistics actually require an immense amount of effort and leading to hit the same spot over and over. Meanwhile with LRMs you just press R and the game plays for you. Please do not ever think that the skill required to use direct fire is even close to minimum and only requirement to use indirect fire. This isn't an opinion, this is the truth. Indirect fire takes no skill to use and so it should remain weak. Players should not be rewarded for not playing the game (using lrms). Furthermore, LRMs are incredibly frustrating for everyone, especially new players.

i would honestly rather be killed by LRM than some sniper off 1200m+ away. LRMs do take a lvl of skill to use effectively its just more positioning and knowing the map. hell Direct fire is even more risky with LRM than it is with just about any other weapon since you have to sit there and face time the enemy while you wait for that lock. even lasers you can break off (at the cost of spreading or simply lesser damage) or twist out of the way. with the prevalence of ECM this is even more so. also with direct fire Ballistics that hit dumps all its damage in one component (ok UACs and Clan ACS have a small burst, LBX are spread but its pretty tight at optimum range). lasers you can get that burn time pretty low with the combination of skill nodes and mech quirks. LRM will always Spread all over a mech even with skill nodes and quirks. at least with something like RACs you can get a few shots down range. LRM having IDF capability is the only thing that even makes them remotely viable.

also if someone is firing the target or otherwise actively doing something they are playing the game. same goes for light mechs that do more scouting and support stuff than damage dealing. i don't mind some LRM boat sitting back and lobbing missiles over a hill or over my head damage is damage and it usually causes that mech to try and get to cover instead of shooting at me. (its one of those "if you aren't playing the way i say you should your not playing" mentalities that makes me dislike the so called "Elite" players so much)

no one is asking for a damage buff for LRM or even a spread buff, just that they stop nerfing the **** out of them at every opportunity. (mech specific buffs/nerfs don't count at all in these calculations and never should)

(when i was new to the game man many moons ago yeah LRM were frustrating until i started using them myself and learned their shortcomings. now days those short comings are even greater than they were back then.)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 20 August 2023 - 07:32 AM.

[Tarteso]

Another step for the Call of Dutywarrior online.
In next patch they also will add shitloads of giant mushrooms in every map, just in case.

[Duke Falcon]

Bassault, on 20 August 2023 - 06:24 AM, said:

I'm not sure if you have a lot of experience aiming. You see simply hitting the enemy mech isn't enough. You have to hit the same component over and over. When an enemy mech is moving around (an enemy not in tier 3, 4 or 5), getting a steady laser burn is a bit more difficult and ballistics actually require an immense amount of effort and leading to hit the same spot over and over. Meanwhile with LRMs you just press R and the game plays for you. Please do not ever think that the skill required to use direct fire is even close to minimum and only requirement to use indirect fire. This isn't an opinion, this is the truth. Indirect fire takes no skill to use and so it should remain weak. Players should not be rewarded for not playing the game (using lrms). Furthermore, LRMs are incredibly frustrating for everyone, especially new players.

So, then why the lrm nerf "if" you are right? Anyone from T3 knows how to evade indirect lurm-fire. Newcomers are frustrating by lurms? That's the point: Make them learn to avoid it!
Many hates lurms because think "lock" weapons are auto-aim! Because many would unable to even achieve a single lock is the reason why only lurms and streaks needs lock. All weapons should have need a lock or have an 50% chance of miss even if you aim well with the crosshair. But again, you lack the understanding of basic weapons, right? Afterall even a gust of wind have an enormous effect on a projectile. But this is not appear in games because "engine can't support it" (literally mean: We were lazy to implement, deal with it!). Thus you have your little chance to cry about the only weapon system what works as weapons should work. It is not you who aim, you need to grant time to the computer to focus your weapons to the target (for weaker in mind: NEED TO LOCK YOU WEAPONS TOWARD THE TARGET) otherwise you would mostly miss. But yeah, ray-tracing weapons need skill: to follow the target. True. Real skill requiring weapons are the ballistics and PPCs the rest is quite dumb-proof.
Let me guess, the vultures shall gather after reading this. MWO is quite f**ked, a fact, and most players just cling to exploite these logical-holes the coders were lazy to fill with proper physics (what not something new since around 2000 most games could handle it)... And yes, I am in a bad mood again what makes me more agressive. But dumb changes are just dumb. It would be more clear and brave from PGI if they istead admit: "We heard the few and accepted their need that only assaults, LLs, Gauss and seal-clubbing would remain in the game, we ban everything else or nerf those into uselessness. Thank you!"

[SafeScanner]

data did his own review explaining the reasons

[Mechwarrior2342356]

VeeOt Dragon, on 20 August 2023 - 07:26 AM, said:

i would honestly rather be killed by LRM than some sniper off 1200m+ away. LRMs do take a lvl of skill to use effectively its just more positioning and knowing the map. hell Direct fire is even more risky with LRM than it is with just about any other weapon since you have to sit there and face time the enemy while you wait for that lock. even lasers you can break off (at the cost of spreading or simply lesser damage) or twist out of the way. with the prevalence of ECM this is even more so. also with direct fire Ballistics that hit dumps all its damage in one component (ok UACs and Clan ACS have a small burst, LBX are spread but its pretty tight at optimum range). lasers you can get that burn time pretty low with the combination of skill nodes and mech quirks. LRM will always Spread all over a mech even with skill nodes and quirks. at least with something like RACs you can get a few shots down range. LRM having IDF capability is the only thing that even makes them remotely viable.

also if someone is firing the target or otherwise actively doing something they are playing the game. same goes for light mechs that do more scouting and support stuff than damage dealing. i don't mind some LRM boat sitting back and lobbing missiles over a hill or over my head damage is damage and it usually causes that mech to try and get to cover instead of shooting at me. (its one of those "if you aren't playing the way i say you should your not playing" mentalities that makes me dislike the so called "Elite" players so much)

no one is asking for a damage buff for LRM or even a spread buff, just that they stop nerfing the **** out of them at every opportunity. (mech specific buffs/nerfs don't count at all in these calculations and never should)

(when i was new to the game man many moons ago yeah LRM were frustrating until i started using them myself and learned their shortcomings. now days those short comings are even greater than they were back then.)

Dead is dead. Starts the same cycle of "leave, swap mech, queue up again" regardless. I barely care how I get murked and I'm caring less every day who does it.

Edited by the check engine light, 20 August 2023 - 08:14 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

Data should always be ignored. he has obvious biases and doesn't think LRM should even be in the game. and it has been a very long time since LRM ever got a buff of any real kind (not including mech quirks those are mech buffs not LRM) so that is patently false information he is giving.

(if a Quirk on a specific mech makes something overpowered then nerf that mech Quirk not the weapon system. its the same reason when people say nerf MGs i so no. its because its not the MGs that are overpowered its a mech that can carry 12 of them that is overpowered. same thing applies here)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 20 August 2023 - 08:21 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

VeeOt Dragon, on 20 August 2023 - 08:17 AM, said:

Data should always be ignored. he has obvious biases and doesn't think LRM should even be in the game. and it has been a very long time since LRM ever got a buff of any real kind (not including mech quirks those are mech buffs not LRM) so that is patently false information he is giving.

(if a Quirk on a specific mech makes something overpowered then nerf that mech Quirk not the weapon system. its the same reason when people say nerf MGs i so no. its because its not the MGs that are overpowered its a mech that can carry 12 of them that is overpowered. same thing applies here)

They can't nerf hardpoint count. Take a look at the latest offerings. Do you see hardpoint count diminishing?

Hardpoint count, especially on assaults with tonnage to burn, is better than any quirk. We just got an Annie with enough E hardpoints and tonnage to run lasvom like nobody's business, and it has ******* quirks besides on top of the hitboxes and hardpoints. The SRs are hardpoint monsters. The Moonwalker, the new Stalker, the Seraph, the Arges.

Congrats, you begged for winmoar and you ******' got it.

Edited by the check engine light, 20 August 2023 - 08:41 AM.

[Spheroid]

SafeScanner, on 20 August 2023 - 08:06 AM, said:

data did his own review explaining the his reasons

All I heard is that he wants further nerfs, 140 m/s minimum and ideally a trip in the time machine to 5+ years ago with 100 m/s even though the state of the game has radically changed. What was your take?

Edited by Spheroid, 20 August 2023 - 08:54 AM.

[SafeScanner]

Spheroid, on 20 August 2023 - 08:54 AM, said:

All I heard is that he wants further nerfs, 140 m/s minimum and ideally a trip in the time machine to 5+ years ago with 100 m/s even though the state of the game has radically changed. What was your take?

My take?

lets see i don't use LRM's that much or at all so i am on the fence on that reguard, the ecm nerf should of been universal in my opinion and a bit harder

AMS i would think a slight quirk buff or ams equipment damage buff would work as good

Edited by SafeScanner, 20 August 2023 - 09:14 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

don't look at me i never asked for the hard point bloat, i was never a fan of the Stone Rhino (or any Clan mech to be honest, its not a tech or even a hard point thing with clan mechs i just never really liked the look of most of them. not saying they shouldn't be in the game as they totally should just they don't really interest me). don't get me started on the whole Legendary mech concept. hell even on mechs with reasonable numbers of Hard points i tend to have some left over on my builds. not sure who thought the bloat would be a good idea.

though perhaps my use of the MGs as an example wasn't the right one to use. here is something better

so say if the truly massive (being sarcastic here) Missile Velocity Quirk on the CPLT-C4 (+10% if i remember right) makes that mech overpowered when using LRM then just remove that Quirk from that mech no need to nerf the entire weapon system. if multiple mechs have the same quirk then just lower that and not the weapon system itself. this goes for all weapons not just LRM. seems more like they just took the lazy way out. "oh all these mechs have velocity quirks but i don't feel like changing each one so i'll just change the weapon itself"

(i used the C4 as an example here because it is one of my favorite LRM boats and has been since before MWO even existed, back when i used to play Battletech Tabletop. hell i didn't even have minis either)

[RockmachinE]

VeeOt Dragon, on 20 August 2023 - 08:17 AM, said:

Data should always be ignored. he has obvious biases

Yep.