162 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

The biggest problem with them is that people like Data and his friends have figured out that they are (or were anyhow) relatively good as a direct fire counter to the players that wanted to to group up a bunch of erLL Dires or statue guass builds.

There's a fair number of mechs that could put up crippling/killing numbers into their sniper position before securing a lock and letting them know the sky was about to fall on them. Near impossible to see if you are staring through the view scope, and all but impossible for a 100 tonner to get out of the way once the rain starts to come in.

As far as TT rules come into play you don't have to roll any dice against your range, heat, terrain, arc, torso twist, movement or whatever other number of factors that can modify your to hit chances - and you additionally have a massively wider area open to hit than you would in TT based on your attack angles. Also trees and most non-hard structures don't have any affect at all where in TT you'd be guaranteed a miss trying to shoot into them.

Can you imagine how much trouble most of you'd be in if you had to roll/compete against just heat penalties to your to-hit chance?
"Remember your overrides"....

[feeWAIVER]

LordNothing, on 21 August 2023 - 03:04 PM, said:

i never bought into the whole lerms == aimbot narrative that the "skill"warriors have been pushing. in order to get a lock, you need to put your crosshair on the target, and hold it there for several seconds until your missiles hit. even the worst possible lock maintenance angle would still land rac or lb rounds. thats actually more aiming than the erll boats need. lerm boats just defer the aiming to the lock phase. more when the tag or worse narc is in play. equating this to using an aim bot, which instantly puts a ppfld weapon exactly where you want it, is grossly disingenuous.

With lurms you have to vaguely hover over their center mass for a few seconds, but you're never gonna aim to take a torso off with lurms. You're not going to make those kinds of decisions with lurms. It's not disingenuous to equate lurms with aimbots, you can literally hit people from 100% cover.

[LordNothing]

feeWAIVER, on 21 August 2023 - 06:34 PM, said:

With lurms you have to vaguely hover over their center mass for a few seconds, but you're never gonna aim to take a torso off with lurms. You're not going to make those kinds of decisions with lurms. It's not disingenuous to equate lurms with aimbots, you can literally hit people from 100% cover.

aim poorly for a long time or aim well for a short time. you dont get the precision or the ability to sub-target, but you get idf, a fair tradeoff. you also advertise your position to every light mech and lerm hunter on the other team. aiming is done, i dont care how badly it is. aim bot insti-snaps does everything for you including timing the shot. it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that the former requires significantly more skill than the latter.

just so were clear good aim is one skill, there are many others, and lerms require most of them.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 August 2023 - 07:12 PM.

[Ilostmycactus]

As I've said before, lrms should act like wire guided tow missiles at least in direct fire. Actually trying to direct fire them is silly in most situations, because they are so slow and inaccurate. You're just going to eat alphas while you are forced to stare and get a lock. Meanwhile the enemy just twists or goes back to cover.

I find it very strange that an advanced locking mechanism just doesn't work if you aren't pointed directly at the target. The cone should be much larger. This would allow twisting without immediately losing your lock.

I've only found lrms to be oppressive when fighting premades or if you get caught out, which just ties into matchmaking, map design, and nascaring. When I bring out my dire boat whether or not I have a good game is the luck of the draw, it's not a consistent performer like lasers are.

They might work in more of a suppressive support role if MWO wasn't so arena focused. Much larger and more natural maps would maybe help, but it's possible even more game systems would need to change (too late at this point).

On a rocket related tangent, it is kind of strange that mwo doesn't have any high explosive, splash damage type rocket weapons like other traditional shooters (rpgs, grenades, etc). Things that don't require direct contact with the target.

If they're trying to adjust lrms, how come there isn't any effort into making flamers useful? If anything needs a redesign it's them.

[Khalcruth]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2023 - 11:13 AM, said:

We are trying to gradually reduce the extremes of the systems that are tied together like that so that hard counters and hard counter counters are less common. This is not the final tweak. This is the first, and we are trying to work with what we have available to us (which is pretty limited).
This will include tweaks to radar deprivation and other nodes potentially. As well as uplifting some mechs through quirks to put them at a better position for LRMs.

You know what you could do? You could just leave-well-the-****-enough-alone and do absolutely nothing. That would actually work. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind.

[Novakaine]

Well thank once again blue laser gang.
The "trash bin" in particular.
This one is just trash.

[KursedVixen]

sycocys, on 21 August 2023 - 06:17 PM, said:

The biggest problem with them is that people like Data and his friends have figured out that they are (or were anyhow) relatively good as a direct fire counter to the players that wanted to to group up a bunch of erLL Dires or statue guass builds.

There's a fair number of mechs that could put up crippling/killing numbers into their sniper position before securing a lock and letting them know the sky was about to fall on them. Near impossible to see if you are staring through the view scope, and all but impossible for a 100 tonner to get out of the way once the rain starts to come in.

As far as TT rules come into play you don't have to roll any dice against your range, heat, terrain, arc, torso twist, movement or whatever other number of factors that can modify your to hit chances - and you additionally have a massively wider area open to hit than you would in TT based on your attack angles. Also trees and most non-hard structures don't have any affect at all where in TT you'd be guaranteed a miss trying to shoot into them.

Can you imagine how much trouble most of you'd be in if you had to roll/compete against just heat penalties to your to-hit chance?
"Remember your overrides"....

one persons theory is because they're trying to sell the guasszilla and stone crusher two incredibly slow assaults, but instead of speeding up the assaults they're nerfing the lrms.

Ilostmycactus, on 21 August 2023 - 08:34 PM, said:

If they're trying to adjust lrms, how come there isn't any effort into making flamers useful? If anything needs a redesign it's them.

They were changed along time ago so that they wouldn't blind people but Racs can blind people....makes no sense they even made flamers hotter, and i think they use to be abel to overheat people and they changed it so that you have to shoot to overheat...

[MrMadguy]

Obvious pro-Meta changes. Snipe Meta abusers just hate LRMs, because LRMs allow other players to counter them. LRM+TAG can even counter poptarts to some degree. That's exact thing, guy in video has mentioned. "Player should be able to hide behind cover and completely avoid all LRMs". So, what? Snipers should snipe without any consequences and threats? No need to twist and change position? No difficulties with aiming due to limited shot window? Just sit there and shoot defenseless preys?

I just hate this situation. Some players have got used to some Meta. For example "If I equip ECM, then I'm totally immune to all LRMs/SSRMs and can just forget about them, lol". All players do it and expect it to work. Like Lights, who just openly attack my teammates and expect to be invulnerable. And when all of a sudden other players choose counter-Meta builds, such as wasting their tonnage on equipping BAP and TAG - this counter-Meta should be nerfed? Lol. This game will never be successful. I already play it during major events only. Will play even less.

Edited by MrMadguy, 21 August 2023 - 10:54 PM.

[Ignatius Audene]

Not rly touching the main discussion, since the impact of the changes will be hard to notice (better approach would have been to nerve ECM, nerv missle velo on quirked chassis, buff ams dmg, increase streak and SRM (can't judge ATM) hp, reduce radar derp, reduce velo, decrease direct fire lock on time). But that patch notes alone would be very long and too much to implement probably.

But my real ❓ why the hell do U think lrm counter snipers???? In an sniper I am immune to lrm?!?

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 22 August 2023 - 12:07 AM.

[Samziel]

Everyone seems to ignore what Navid said. LRM velo has been buffed over time to counteract the raise of ECM effectiveness and usage. Which is a wrong way to approach things. They are now gradually trying to nerf both as an attempt to eventually overall buff LRMs without causing a LRM apocalypse in the meanwhile. I can agree this ECM nerf seems too little, but I guess they have to take things slow to see the effect in action. In short, more patches regarding these systems are coming.

Also LRMs are definitely not a counter to snipers. Saying this is a pro meta change is a misinformed claim.

[MrMadguy]

What bothers me about this nerf, is that LRMs are LONG range missiles by design. If they will be useless at long range due to flying there for ages, then it would just counter their purpose.

[Samziel]

MrMadguy, on 22 August 2023 - 01:01 AM, said:

What bothers me about this nerf, is that LRMs are LONG range missiles by design. If they will be useless at long range due to flying there for ages, then it would just counter their purpose.

Unfortunately they've never really been that. People have always had enough time to find cover from max range lrms unless they misposition. Thats why they arent used much in higher tiers. Close-to midrange there are better options, mid to long range there are better options. And if you make missiles so fast they hit long range consistently youre making them opressing in shorter ranges and indirect fire.

[MrMadguy]

I mean, if LRMs will be useless outside of 300m and snipers, sitting at edges of HPG or Emerald, will have more than enough time to shoot and drop target lock - LRMs will be useless weapons against snipe Meta again. I just want to remind you, that LRM's range is 900m and that they should be effective at this range, not completely useless. Do you really want Gauss to be only usable weapon in this game? Each and every my build already boils down to Gauss as main weapon and ER-PPC/LL as endless ammo snipe-duel support. 'Mech with any other build is just useless and dies early.

Again. Balancing around extremes is terrible idea. Average players in my matches don't have LRM skills and quirks. ECMs are already more individual protection, than group one, so nefring them wouldn't change anything. In my matches may be just one player of 24 exploits OP radar derp, that provides 99.99% immunity against LRMs. And in this average case LRMs are perfectly ok as is. Nerfing it now means nerfing average players like me, who already barely can play this game due to snipe/light Meta.

Only radar derp is outlier. There should be status quo between fully skilled LRMs and fully skilled anti-LRMs. Skilling should give advantage, that should be countered by counter-skilling. Nothing should give 99.99% zero-counter protection. That's how choices in games work. You get some advantage at expense of sacrificing something else. If other player nullifies 100% of my damage, then he should do it only at expense of 100% of his damage. That's it. Fair deal.

Edited by MrMadguy, 22 August 2023 - 02:01 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

Capellan Shenanigans, on 21 August 2023 - 04:40 PM, said:

Could you link some builds? I've been thinking that it's time for my Catapult to drop the MRMs and get back to my roots with LRMs.

I had a massive, cross-country move that made me miss most of the big summer event, so I want to spread the salt.

can shoot you two that i use often enough. both run pretty good for me (i tend towards a 50/50 IDF/DF usage so XLs are viable enough) (build code follows each)

Catapult-C4 (2 LRM-20 (9t ammo), 2 MLs, 1 AMS (1/2t ammo) running an Xl-290 with 1 DHS, BAP and endo)

AH0820:1|Y?|Y?|Ld|i^pb0|[O|[O|f?|[O|aO|[<2qb0|[O|[O|[<2rX0|Z?sX0|Z?tb0|[O|[Oua0|[O|[OvA0|Z<2w:0:0:0

Hunchback-4J (2 LRM-15 (6t ammo), 5 ER SLs, 1 AMS (1t ammo), running an XL-245 with 2 DHS, BAP and Endo)

AE0820h0|Z<2|CdpX0|4@|4@|E@|E@|E@qX0|i^|[O|f?|[O|i^rP0|AO|E@s00t_0|[O|[Ou_0|[O|[OvB0|E@w808080

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MrMadguy, on 22 August 2023 - 01:14 AM, said:

Only radar derp is outlier. There should be status quo between fully skilled LRMs and fully skilled anti-LRMs. Skilling should give advantage, that should be countered by counter-skilling. Nothing should give 99.99% zero-counter protection. That's how choices in games work. You get some advantage at expense of sacrificing something else. If other player nullifies 100% of my damage, then he should do it only at expense of 100% of his damage. That's it. Fair deal.

yeah thats why i say that RD should have a direct counter skill.

[martian]

Capellan Shenanigans, on 21 August 2023 - 04:40 PM, said:

Could you link some builds? I've been thinking that it's time for my Catapult to drop the MRMs and get back to my roots with LRMs.

I had a massive, cross-country move that made me miss most of the big summer event, so I want to spread the salt.

Considering that LRMs are just about to be nerfed, perhaps you should concentrate on direct-fire weapons.

[sycocys]

Samziel, on 22 August 2023 - 12:13 AM, said:

Everyone seems to ignore what Navid said.

Because honestly many of us believe he/they (cauldron) are often quite disingenuous with their tweaks, especially when it comes to already poorly performing systems.

There could be a change to ecm that doesn't kill it or explode lrms effectiveness - remove target block and increase target lock and information time. Or just have it reduced opposing mechs radar range and counter seismic if they are in the bubble.
Either are something pgi could actually do and it actually puts it closer to in line with what the system is supposed to be within the context of the game's capabilities.

[MrMadguy]

VeeOt Dragon, on 22 August 2023 - 02:20 AM, said:

yeah thats why i say that RD should have a direct counter skill.

First of all, it shouldn't be instant. Idea behind it, is that missiles should work as direct fire weapons only. But terrain, that causes split-second lock losses, turns it into OP 100% missile counter. This should be fixed. Thx God only Lights and may be Mediums can abuse it effectively enough. But Lights have enough immunities and invulnerabilities already. For example only around 10% LRMs hit them due to spread and low tracking speed.

[feeWAIVER]

It's only a 10% nerf to base velocity, while mechs in this patch are getting 30% velocity buffs, and there's a ton of velocity quirks already in the game. Really guys, it's not that big of a deal. You're gonna log in after the patch and realize it's fine.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 22 August 2023 - 04:58 AM.

[MrMadguy]

feeWAIVER, on 22 August 2023 - 04:57 AM, said:

It's only a 10% nerf to base velocity, while mechs in this patch are getting 30% velocity buffs, and there's a ton of velocity quirks already in the game. Really guys, it's not that big of a deal. You're gonna log in after the patch and realize it's fine.

It's always very bad sign, when fine/underperforming weapons are nerfed instead of overperforming ones. This only makes things worse, not better.

It's typical designing around extremes, that happens in so called "competitive" online games very often. Dev balance things around 1% of competitive players, streamer and their tournament matches, that happen once a year, while totally breaking things for average players.

It really seems to me, that we will have much more problems with HAGs after this patch. If I understand their mechanics correctly, they may be fine at long range due to spread, but at short range we will have exactly the same problems, we had with double-AC/20 in the past.

[martian]

feeWAIVER, on 22 August 2023 - 04:57 AM, said:

It's only a 10% nerf to base velocity, while mechs in this patch are getting 30% velocity buffs, and there's a ton of velocity quirks already in the game. Really guys, it's not that big of a deal. You're gonna log in after the patch and realize it's fine.

What 'Mechs are getting 30% velocity buffs in this patch? Specifically, velocity buffs applicable to LRMs?