162 replies to this topic

[JediPanther]

Not much of a "long" range weapon when nearly every other weapon shoots longer,faster and better. I can matrix doge a 2000 m/s guass round but that 180m lrm? OHHH SHHIIIITTT! amiwite? Lrms are so heavy counters to snipers.

[Capellan Shenanigans]

VeeOt Dragon, on 22 August 2023 - 02:20 AM, said:

can shoot you two that i use often enough. both run pretty good for me (i tend towards a 50/50 IDF/DF usage so XLs are viable enough) (build code follows each)

Catapult-C4 (2 LRM-20 (9t ammo), 2 MLs, 1 AMS (1/2t ammo) running an Xl-290 with 1 DHS, BAP and endo)

AH0820:1|Y?|Y?|Ld|i^pb0|[O|[O|f?|[O|aO|[<2qb0|[O|[O|[<2rX0|Z?sX0|Z?tb0|[O|[Oua0|[O|[OvA0|Z<2w:0:0:0

Hunchback-4J (2 LRM-15 (6t ammo), 5 ER SLs, 1 AMS (1t ammo), running an XL-245 with 2 DHS, BAP and Endo)

AE0820h0|Z<2|CdpX0|4@|4@|E@|E@|E@qX0|i^|[O|f?|[O|i^rP0|AO|E@s00t_0|[O|[Ou_0|[O|[OvB0|E@w808080

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






yeah thats why i say that RD should have a direct counter skill.

Thanks for the builds, I'll give them some time in the testing grounds.

Here is what I was considering running on my Catapult: A<0:3:@1|Qd|i^|i^|Y?|Y?ph0|Y?|NG|NGqh0|Y?|NG|Z<2|i^rX0|C@sX0|C@tb0|^O|^Oub0|^O|^Ov60|^Ow404040

I like playing my Catapults fast and skirmishy, they handle better than you'd think. I've had success with similar skirmishy, second-line LRM builds in the past, so I'd like to see how something like this holds up.

martian, on 22 August 2023 - 03:36 AM, said:

Considering that LRMs are just about to be nerfed, perhaps you should concentrate on direct-fire weapons.

It's like a protest vote, I'll use them out of sheer defiance. Anything that makes the sniper assualt players cry is worth the price of admission.

Mark Yore, on 22 August 2023 - 05:52 AM, said:

Blood Asp Rancor with BAS-E arms, LRM-20s in the torso and LRM-15s in the arms. Add a TAG and a CAP, lots of ammo and finish with heat sinks. Set the missiles to chain fire and you've got a great low-heat way of delivering 100 missiles per salvo with very little downtime.
Ideally you want to position yourself in the middle and slightly behind the main body of your team because you will be the number one target. You should be no more than 400 metres from your targets to maximise damage and minimise the opportunity to get swamped by lights. Although there is nothing like the sheer joy of destroying a Piranha by firing everything at almost point blank range.
It's almost the anti-sniper build, where you still have the range to use suppressive fire on the gauss and PPC snipers hiding at the edges of the map or in elevated positions.

I appreciate the suggestion!

Edited by Capellan Shenanigans, 22 August 2023 - 06:00 PM.

[martian]

Capellan Shenanigans, on 22 August 2023 - 05:58 PM, said:

It's like a protest vote, I'll use them out of sheer defiance. Anything that makes the sniper assualt players cry is worth the price of admission.

I am sorry to rain on your parade, but LRMs will not "make the sniper assualt players cry". They will just step two steps aside and hide behind cover, while your LRMs are slowly travelling towards them. Have you ever played on Emerald Vale, HPG Manifold, etc.?

[MrMadguy]

Bassault, on 22 August 2023 - 01:02 PM, said:

How does LRM counter "op meta abusers"? I alphastrike my gauss and large lasers, your lrms lock and fire, I take cover. You eat ****, I take no damage. The only thing your LRMs are countering is people's willingness to move up, because if they do they can get LRM'd out in the open.

At least LRMs make snipers nervous and prevent them from overwhelming your teammates via shotting simultaneously. You know, when player sees that "Incoming missiles", he start to seek for cover instead of harassing your teammates.

In normal situation, i.e. no OP radar derp and enough LRM speed, if sniper is poptarting and I have TAG for quicker locks - LRMs usually have enough time to hit him via indirect fire. That prevents poptart tactic, that is still quite OP.

Overall LRMs are good way to suppress snipers and deathball brawlers, especially combined with TAGs. Even if you just waste your missiles, switching quickly between targets makes them hide, instead of snipe-harassing or deathballing.

Conclusion: it's just terrible, when game is already completely broken, but instead of fixing it devs brake it even further. I already can barely play it. Even more nerfs mean, that moment when I will be unable to play it is closer and closer. We had such moment in the past, when game was completely unplayable. It was prior to modern balance passes. And game goes this way again.

Edited by MrMadguy, 22 August 2023 - 10:20 PM.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 22 August 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

At least LRMs make snipers nervous and prevent them from overwhelming your teammates via shotting simultaneously. You know, when player sees that "Incoming missiles", he start to seek for cover instead of harassing your teammates.

In normal situation, i.e. no OP radar derp and enough LRM speed, if sniper is poptarting and I have TAG for quicker locks - LRMs usually have enough time to hit him via indirect fire. That prevents poptart tactic, that is still quite OP.

Overall LRMs are good way to suppress snipers and deathball brawlers, especially combined with TAGs. Even if you just waste your missiles, switching quickly between targets makes them hide, instead of snipe-harassing or deathballing.

Clan ER PPC - projectile speed 1650 m/s
Clan Gauss Rifle - projectile speed 2200 m/s
Clan ER Large laser - speed of light

IS and Clan LRM - velocity 266/190 m/s

What would arrive sooner? Sniper's ER PPC bolts / Gauss Rifle slugs / ERLL beams to your 'Mech, or your LRMs to the sniper? Who has got more time to react?

MrMadguy, on 22 August 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

Conclusion: it's just terrible, when game is already completely broken, but instead of fixing it devs brake it even further. I already can barely play it. Even more nerfs mean, that moment when I will be unable to play it is closer and closer. We had such moment in the past, when game was completely unplayable. It was prior to modern balance passes. And game goes this way again.

Have you ever thought about adjusting your tactic or your 'Mech's loadout?

[VeeOt Dragon]

Capellan Shenanigans, on 22 August 2023 - 05:58 PM, said:

Thanks for the builds, I'll give them some time in the testing grounds.

Here is what I was considering running on my Catapult: A<0:3:@1|Qd|i^|i^|Y?|Y?ph0|Y?|NG|NGqh0|Y?|NG|Z<2|i^rX0|C@sX0|C@tb0|^O|^Oub0|^O|^Ov60|^Ow404040

I like playing my Catapults fast and skirmishy, they handle better than you'd think. I've had success with similar skirmishy, second-line LRM builds in the past, so I'd like to see how something like this holds up.

not a bad build. you might want to strip one of the JJs for more ammo but other than that very workable. just be careful with XLs an a catapult because its side torsos are really easy to pick out. though since you seem to be going for a closer range play style it might be fine. LRM-20s are usually the go to for Catapults (there was a time when running 4 LRM-10s was the go to but again they nerfed that as well so it wasn't worth the extra heat.) but like you said your going for more of a skirmisher so the 15s might work fine.

not a big user of Artemis anymore myself but thats because they nerfed the **** out of it a few years back (during the balance pass that added the variable firing arcs they cut out over half of the functionality of artemis). i just don't find it worth the tonnage or slot cost anymore.

[Vonbach]

martian, on 22 August 2023 - 10:03 PM, said:

I am sorry to rain on your parade, but LRMs will not "make the sniper assualt players cry". They will just step two steps aside and hide behind cover, while your LRMs are slowly travelling towards them. Have you ever played on Emerald Vale, HPG Manifold, etc.?

Thats why they keep getting nerfed. Snipers don't want to have to waddle behind cover it ruins their "skilled play"

[Capellan Shenanigans]

VeeOt Dragon, on 23 August 2023 - 10:11 AM, said:

not a bad build. you might want to strip one of the JJs for more ammo but other than that very workable. just be careful with XLs an a catapult because its side torsos are really easy to pick out. though since you seem to be going for a closer range play style it might be fine. LRM-20s are usually the go to for Catapults (there was a time when running 4 LRM-10s was the go to but again they nerfed that as well so it wasn't worth the extra heat.) but like you said your going for more of a skirmisher so the 15s might work fine.

not a big user of Artemis anymore myself but thats because they nerfed the **** out of it a few years back (during the balance pass that added the variable firing arcs they cut out over half of the functionality of artemis). i just don't find it worth the tonnage or slot cost anymore.

I always run XL Catapults, I find that the extra speed or payload is worth the risk of IS XL engines. Besides, second line or fire support 'mechs shouldn't be taking that much fire if your positioning is good.

I haven't used LRMs in so long, so I just threw Artemis on for good measure. I'll try everything and tweak it once I have the chance to get some game time in. I was on the fence about Artemis to begin with, so that will probably be the first thing to go if I don't feel the need.

[LordNothing]

foamyesque, on 22 August 2023 - 12:13 PM, said:

Better than streaks is a very low bar indeed because I think streaks probably *are* the worst weapon in the game. You pay extra tonnage for a weapon that performs worse than a standard SRM except in very limited circumstances.

Better than ATMs? That's more arguable, but only because in LRMs scale better in groups. ATMs do better when you can't rely on your teammates to either synergize with you or cover you, i.e. the more usual solo drop experience.

But either way, 'best of the worst set of weapons' is still bad.

i can usually make atms do work, of course i consider them a brawl or standoff weapon most of the time. it also helps that very few players have the gumption to close the gap and make them irrelevant. the only time they are worse is in ams heavy situations, where with lerms having more than 30 tubes comes in handy to punch through the screen. smaller atms swarms just get devoured. they are also weak in the long range bracket, mostly due to map design and the fact that you need active scouting to get locks at that range. anything that emphasizes the long range bracket would improve the weapon and give snipers a run for their money.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 August 2023 - 03:38 PM.

[LordNothing]

KursedVixen, on 21 August 2023 - 10:34 PM, said:

one persons theory is because they're trying to sell the guasszilla and stone crusher two incredibly slow assaults, but instead of speeding up the assaults they're nerfing the lrms.

honestly couldnt make the gausszilla do work until we got the hag.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 August 2023 - 03:41 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

Capellan Shenanigans, on 23 August 2023 - 03:27 PM, said:

I always run XL Catapults, I find that the extra speed or payload is worth the risk of IS XL engines. Besides, second line or fire support 'mechs shouldn't be taking that much fire if your positioning is good.

I haven't used LRMs in so long, so I just threw Artemis on for good measure. I'll try everything and tweak it once I have the chance to get some game time in. I was on the fence about Artemis to begin with, so that will probably be the first thing to go if I don't feel the need.

yep its why i started switching towards XLs on my LRM boats. but yeah as long as you are having fun with it and it works for you go for it. when i post a build either when asked or just because its not that i want someone to copy it exactly but in hopes that it gives someone inspiration.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

martian, on 23 August 2023 - 12:44 AM, said:

What would arrive sooner? Sniper's ER PPC bolts / Gauss Rifle slugs / ERLL beams to your 'Mech, or your LRMs to the sniper? Who has got more time to react?

You're missing the entire point his reply. He's talking about indirect fire of LRM harrassing slow meta snipers.

Slower velocity of LRM's at even 500 meters gives the fat sniper mechs a lot more time to move. Then there's the medium poptarts with max radar derp. Decreasing the velocity of LRM's directly improve the 2 meta playstyles/builds.

If the actual reason for this latest nerf to LRM's was to make AMS more useful, then they could have easily reduced the health of LRM's or increased AMS RoF, as others have already pointed out.

If the quirked mechs with (+missle velocity %) were an actual issue, as some have said, then you adjust the quirked values on those mechs, but no, they go with another nerf to the weapon system. Edit: If anything, this velocity nerf makes those quirked mechs even more efficient to use because of the velocity nerf.

You'd have to be maliciously ignorant or flat-out disingenuous to say the continued nerfs to LRM's is anything but a direct action to make meta sniping/poptarting easier.

This nerf reminds me of the SPL nerf that I 100% believe was to increase TTK on SPL brawler builds that had a good chance at a 1v1 against snipers if we managed to cross the 1k meters and still have >80% armor.

Edit: Also, why also decrease the velocity of Direct Fire LRM's? I thought people loved complaining about how noob indirect fire was, yet LRM users who expose themselves to incoming damage are also getting penalized? Make it make sense.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 23 August 2023 - 04:49 PM.

[Capellan Shenanigans]

VeeOt Dragon, on 23 August 2023 - 03:58 PM, said:

yep its why i started switching towards XLs on my LRM boats. but yeah as long as you are having fun with it and it works for you go for it. when i post a build either when asked or just because its not that i want someone to copy it exactly but in hopes that it gives someone inspiration.

I get tunnel vision by trying to stay close to canon loadouts, seeing what others are having success with really helps plan things out.

[Bassault]

RockmachinE, on 20 August 2023 - 02:19 AM, said:

I can't believe there's more LRM nerfs. They were completely useless as it was.

People are taking the piss at this point.

This is precisely why you don't give control over game balance to a small group of players. Go away Cauldron.

Don't give control of balance to a small group of players because a crutch weapon that ruins the game for everyone gets nerfed? Doesn't that seem like a good thing?

[Bassault]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 August 2023 - 04:27 PM, said:

You'd have to be maliciously ignorant or flat-out disingenuous to say the continued nerfs to LRM's is anything but a direct action to make meta sniping/poptarting easier.

I don't understand this at all. How are LRMs countering any sniper? They can just take cover and peek to continue farming... LRMs does not effect snipers as much as it effects anyone trying to move out from cover. It promotes high alphastrike trading rather than dps and aggression because the moment you get caught out of cover you die to someone out of sight 3 tiers below you who isn't even aiming.

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 August 2023 - 04:27 PM, said:

If the actual reason for this latest nerf to LRM's was to make AMS more useful, then they could have easily reduced the health of LRM's or increased AMS RoF, as others have already pointed out.

Why do you post if you don't know how the game works? I don't understand... why would you do that? AMS doesn't even work correctly anymore because the velocity of the LRMs often surpasses the tick rate in which the AMS "scans" to detect LRMs to shoot them. This means that oftentimes an LRM volley will go completely though a wall of AMS because it's so fast it outpaces this detection thing. Go in a lobby with someone else, use an LRM warhammer and test it against a mech with a single AMS, then test it against a mech with 4 AMS and see how worthless AMS is. Anyway, the nerf wasn't necessarily to buff AMS but to nerf LRMs after ECM gets nerfed as well, so the game doesn't become unplayable because a bunch of people who don't want to play the game (LRMing isn't gameplay) are killing me from across the map when I try to move up.

Edited by Bassault, 23 August 2023 - 05:13 PM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Bassault, on 23 August 2023 - 05:08 PM, said:

I don't understand this at all. How are LRMs countering any sniper? They can just take cover and peek to continue farming... LRMs does not effect snipers as much as it effects anyone trying to move out from cover. It promotes high alphastrike trading rather than dps and aggression because the moment you get caught out of cover you die to someone out of sight 3 tiers below you who isn't even aiming.

1) I never said LRM's counter snipers. Quote my text where I said this. What I actually said, had you taken the time to process what I wrote instead of spouting your usual self-important drivel, is that indirect fire is useful at harassing snipers if a person on your team has los for you.

2) You're literally agreeing with me that this game favors high alpha strikes and hiding aka poptarting/sniping.

Bassault, on 23 August 2023 - 05:08 PM, said:

Why do you post if you don't know how the game works? I don't understand... why would you do that? AMS doesn't even work correctly anymore because the velocity of the LRMs often surpasses the tick rate in which the AMS "scans" to detect LRMs to shoot them.This means that oftentimes an LRM volley will go completely though a wall of AMS because it's so fast it outpaces this detection thing.

So the problem, according to you, is AMS detection of LRM's. Sounds like an AMS issue, not a LRM issue. Yet LRM's are nerfed.

Bassault, on 23 August 2023 - 05:08 PM, said:

Go in a lobby with someone else, use an LRM warhammer and test it against a mech with a single AMS, then test it against a mech with 4 AMS and see how worthless AMS is.

I've played plenty of matches with 4xAMS KFX and Corsair to know they absolutely work against 1, maybe 2 LRM streams, depending on density. Either way, AMS isn't supposed to be a magic shield that prevents ALL missles from impacting, especially if you're being targetted by 2+ LRM users.

Bassault, on 23 August 2023 - 05:08 PM, said:

Anyway,the nerf wasn't necessarily to buff AMS but to nerf LRMs after ECM gets nerfed as well, sothe game doesn't become unplayable because a bunch of people who don't want to play the game (LRMing isn't gameplay) are killing me from across the map when I try to move up.

Thank you for admitting your bias.

[Bassault]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 August 2023 - 05:41 PM, said:

is that indirect fire is useful at harassing snipers if a person on your team has los for you.

LRMs are useful for harassing anyone if a person on your team has LOS. Why do you think snipers and poptarters are targeted specifically as benefiting from this? Everyone benefits from not being auto aimed from across the map by someone who isn't aiming, forcing them to be afk behind a rock for 30 seconds.

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 August 2023 - 05:41 PM, said:

2) You're literally agreeing with me that this game favors high alpha strikes and hiding aka poptarting/sniping.

What? Am I not fitting into your toxic compie mould? There's too much NASCAR in my opinion for sniping to be S tier in quickplay. Laservomit is much more meta, because you have more dps and can still trade safely to win, along with poptarting because it's free, consistent and constant damage for lights/mediums. LRMs contribute to this, because I can't stand in the open or I'll get punished by LRMs, along with everyone else with direct fire. People can't push up or move up (brawlers), or use DPS weapons (like ac5s or ac2s) because if they fight from cover they will lose due to less range and low alpha respectively. They want a sustained engagement not a peeking and poking one. Of course LRMs isn't the only reason why this happens but it's a major factor.

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 August 2023 - 05:41 PM, said:

Thank you for admitting your bias.

Yes, you also admitted your bias as well. Just because I have a bias that doesn't mean my opinion and my arguments don't matter.

Edited by Bassault, 23 August 2023 - 08:28 PM.

[Krucilatoz]

martian, on 23 August 2023 - 12:44 AM, said:

Clan ER PPC - projectile speed 1650 m/s
Clan Gauss Rifle - projectile speed 2200 m/s
Clan ER Large laser - speed of light

IS and Clan LRM - velocity 266/190 m/s

What would arrive sooner? Sniper's ER PPC bolts / Gauss Rifle slugs / ERLL beams to your 'Mech, or your LRMs to the sniper? Who has got more time to react?



Have you ever thought about adjusting your tactic or your 'Mech's loadout?

Add other factor such as locking and 200ms+ ping, locking a single mech take 3 - 5 seconds (or nearly 10 secs for ecm covered). Any competent sniper will hit the LRM player and hide before any missile launched.

[Novakaine]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 August 2023 - 04:27 PM, said:

You're missing the entire point his reply. He's talking about indirect fire of LRM harrassing slow meta snipers.

Slower velocity of LRM's at even 500 meters gives the fat sniper mechs a lot more time to move. Then there's the medium poptarts with max radar derp. Decreasing the velocity of LRM's directly improve the 2 meta playstyles/builds.

If the actual reason for this latest nerf to LRM's was to make AMS more useful, then they could have easily reduced the health of LRM's or increased AMS RoF, as others have already pointed out.

If the quirked mechs with (+missle velocity %) were an actual issue, as some have said, then you adjust the quirked values on those mechs, but no, they go with another nerf to the weapon system. Edit: If anything, this velocity nerf makes those quirked mechs even more efficient to use because of the velocity nerf.

You'd have to be maliciously ignorant or flat-out disingenuous to say the continued nerfs to LRM's is anything but a direct action to make meta sniping/poptarting easier.

This nerf reminds me of the SPL nerf that I 100% believe was to increase TTK on SPL brawler builds that had a good chance at a 1v1 against snipers if we managed to cross the 1k meters and still have >80% armor.

Edit: Also, why also decrease the velocity of Direct Fire LRM's? I thought people loved complaining about how noob indirect fire was, yet LRM users who expose themselves to incoming damage are also getting penalized? Make it make sense.

It doesn't.

[VeeOt Dragon]

you know it seems to me that people who say LRM don't need to "aim" have never used them. you do have to aim its just that you are aiming at the red box and not always the mech directly (like i have said before for me its about 50/50 mix of IDF/DF). not only that but you have to "aim" even longer than say a clan HLL would (i think that weapon has the longest burn time in the game but i am not sure as i don't play clan) and you can't even fire until you get the lock (ok you can dumb fire them but at any real range you aren't going to hit anything) so a nice long wait before any damage is dealt. even if you get the lock right after you fire that volley doesn't get the benefit of that lock. the area you have to keep your crosshairs in is tiny until you get a lock though a little wider to keep it. (to get a lock you have to essentially keep your crosshairs in the direct center of the box. once you get the lock you have to keep the center pip within the lock box.) you then have to hold this lock until the missiles actually impact. any deviation from this or if you (or the spotting mech) lose LOS then you have to start all over again. if lock breaks mid flight it is likely that 99% of those missiles with miss depending on range remaining.

now lets list the counters that are strictly to LRM (so we wont include ducking behind cover directly as that is a counter to everything)

-AMS-- shoots down missiles lessening or fully negating a Volley
-ECM- increase time it takes to get a lock even in Direct fire, lowers sensor range making it harder to get a lock (also gives these to any allied mech in a certain range), and completely negating your ability to get any lock on anything at all if the enemy ECM mech is close enough to you.
-Radar Derp skill nodes- full RD makes it so something as small as a tiny tree breaks lock entirely
-Stealth Armor- fully prevents you getting any lock on a mech with this active while still giving all the other benefits of ECM.

also why is it only LRM that get the hate from the so called "elite" or "skilled" players (and don't call yourself skilled if you are using macros thats a bigger easy button than any locking weapon)? you never hear them cry about Streaks (they are just bad as things sit so maybe thats why) or ATMs. ATMs can also fire indirectly no crying about those. i rarely hear T4 or T5 players complain about them even though they are far more prevalent in lower tiers. oh they might a bit until one explains all the counters to them but they figure out pretty quick how to deal with them.