90 replies to this topic

[Ragedog4]

I LOVE the HAGs but lets be honest, they are too powerful but useful so here is a few ideas on it:

TLDR: Just space out the time the first pellet and last pellet leave the gun to fix the issue, keeping its strong role but making it more of a damage spreader.

HAGs are doing something wonderful I am enjoying for these last two days, they are putting the hyper sniper mechs in check for sitting in the back without any threat to them besides other snipers.

HAGs are also highly powerful where now I see almost every match someone (including me) getting clean over 900 damage per match easy.

I do not want a big nerf on HAGs because they are REALLY fun, however the power does need to be addressed. I'm thinking if we just spread out the time each pellet is fired after the other (the time between the first to the last pellet from each HAG fired) that might give a good balance without removing the fun and useful weapon it is showing to be.

This can do several things such as:
-Make it harder to kill lights in close range but not so pinpoint at sniper range making it a good med/skirmish range weapon.
-Forces a little more facetime giving the enemy a higher chance to hit back (a lot can just fire and dip faster than laser and MRM mechs)
-Prevents hard nerfs that might make it worse (like giving damage and/or range drop off makes it a less-threat to snipers, or giving it more heat which would not solve the HAG boats which would suffer no such penalty, or prevent Ghost heat nerfs).

I rather have a small nerf like this that makes the gun still feel the same without taking the beauty the weapon current feels like to balance the game.

I want to know your thoughts or what you feel are other options

[pbiggz]

HAGs are not too powerful. They whack hard but and list impressive numbers but they are not precise and are easy to evade. They are also very heavy and thus limited to relatively few mechs.

[KursedVixen]

Ragedog4, on 23 August 2023 - 04:03 PM, said:

I LOVE the HAGs but lets be honest, they are too powerful but useful so here is a few ideas on it:

TLDR: Just space out the time the first pellet and last pellet leave the gun to fix the issue, keeping its strong role but making it more of a damage spreader.

HAGs are doing something wonderful I am enjoying for these last two days, they are putting the hyper sniper mechs in check for sitting in the back without any threat to them besides other snipers.

HAGs are also highly powerful where now I see almost every match someone (including me) getting clean over 900 damage per match easy.

I do not want a big nerf on HAGs because they are REALLY fun, however the power does need to be addressed. I'm thinking if we just spread out the time each pellet is fired after the other (the time between the first to the last pellet from each HAG fired) that might give a good balance without removing the fun and useful weapon it is showing to be.

This can do several things such as:
-Make it harder to kill lights in close range but not so pinpoint at sniper range making it a good med/skirmish range weapon.
-Forces a little more facetime giving the enemy a higher chance to hit back (a lot can just fire and dip faster than laser and MRM mechs)
-Prevents hard nerfs that might make it worse (like giving damage and/or range drop off makes it a less-threat to snipers, or giving it more heat which would not solve the HAG boats which would suffer no such penalty, or prevent Ghost heat nerfs).

I rather have a small nerf like this that makes the gun still feel the same without taking the beauty the weapon current feels like to balance the game.

I want to know your thoughts or what you feel are other options

How about not Hags are fine they are hot enough to not be boated (I hope0 they aren't terribly good at range Doing as much as an AC 5 at range up to 10 at most, instead learn to avoid the hag shot, they require charging up with makes them slow especially for a follow up shot. they are also large and heavy. even the hag 20 which could replace an ac10 is larger than an lbx 10 or c-ac 10. Also you can very easily twist out the damage especially at longer ranges.

The only weapon that needs nerfed is maybe the binary laser adding 1 more heat to it xpulses totally are like pee shooters.

Clan finally gets a decent balanced weapon and everyone and their moms have to whine it's too op I've honestly been killed more by alll the other new weapons that the Hyper gauss....

Though i admit something does need to be done to so that mechs other than the gauss zilla don't boat more than 3 of any of the 20's or 30's or more than 2 of the 40's

You say you don't want a big nerf but they will get a big nerf if they do get nerfed at all because you all are whining about it that's how clan weapons go.... so NEVER ask for clan weapons to be nerfed because they will be nerfed hard.

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 August 2023 - 06:32 AM.

[LordNothing]

of all the new weapons the hags seem to be the best balanced. the blazer is the op weapon (but only due to gh limit not being the intended value), and the xpulse, especially the small and medium being the weaker options.

is have things like the mrm40 and the hgauss that can dump lots of damage. hags provide parity to these abilities.

[VaelophisNyx]

HAGs are not Ok actually, they are far too consistently shredding anything that moves, regardless of range. It's also waaaay too easy to run them on nearly everything the clans get. They need a nerfbatting badly, and are currently demolishing PUGs.
Funny though, to see it's only people who use HAGs heavily running damage control for them, trying to boast they're not overpowered at all.

Easy fixes for the current nightmare machines in question:
1. More heat - Why are these things running so insanely cool, even when exceeding their HSL
2. larger spread cone - These are an answer to Rotaries, not Gauss 2, they're a mid-range to close range weapon and should not be capable of sniping at all.
3. Increased weight - You should not be capable of running a HAG 40 on a Jenner IIc, for quick example. It's too easy to shove them absolutely everywhere.

[Tywren]

VaelophisNyx, on 24 August 2023 - 07:06 PM, said:

HAGs are not Ok actually, they are far too consistently shredding anything that moves, regardless of range. It's also waaaay too easy to run them on nearly everything the clans get. They need a nerfbatting badly, and are currently demolishing PUGs.
Funny though, to see it's only people who use HAGs heavily running damage control for them, trying to boast they're not overpowered at all.

Easy fixes for the current nightmare machines in question:
1. More heat - Why are these things running so insanely cool, even when exceeding their HSL
2. larger spread cone - These are an answer to Rotaries, not Gauss 2, they're a mid-range to close range weapon and should not be capable of sniping at all.
3. Increased weight - You should not be capable of running a HAG 40 on a Jenner IIc, for quick example. It's too easy to shove them absolutely everywhere.

Clearly you don't understand how HAGs (or gauss in general) work. You can't go over the weapon's HSL because you can only charge/fire 2 gauss type weapons at a time, don't believe me, then try it yourself. take a Direwolf and pack it with 4 HAG 20s, and put them all on one trigger, only two will charge at a time, then try switching to two different triggers and hold them both down at once, again only two will charge (one on each trigger). the best you can do is immediately start charging the second set after firing the first, and the charge up time is longer than the .5 seconds needed to trigger HSL.

And no, gauss aren't supposed to be a midrange weapon. even going back to TT the gauss has had a range parity with LRMs, and the charge up timer was added in the first place to make it more comparable to the large laser (charge up time originally being the same as the burn time of a LL) to balance gauss toward the sniper role.

[R Valentine]

HAGs are terrible. They're good damage farm, but I'd rather have a regular gauss rifle in every situation.

[Curccu]

Tywren, on 24 August 2023 - 08:07 PM, said:

Clearly you don't understand how HAGs (or gauss in general) work. You can't go over the weapon's HSL because you can only charge/fire 2 gauss type weapons at a time, don't believe me, then try it yourself. take a Direwolf and pack it with 4 HAG 20s, and put them all on one trigger, only two will charge at a time, then try switching to two different triggers and hold them both down at once, again only two will charge (one on each trigger). the best you can do is immediately start charging the second set after firing the first, and the charge up time is longer than the .5 seconds needed to trigger HSL.

And no, gauss aren't supposed to be a midrange weapon. even going back to TT the gauss has had a range parity with LRMs, and the charge up timer was added in the first place to make it more comparable to the large laser (charge up time originally being the same as the burn time of a LL) to balance gauss toward the sniper role.

And you just had to pick only HAG for you example that can go over HSL limit, which is 1 for HAG40... shooting two is going past the limit.

[kalashnikity]

Ragedog4, on 23 August 2023 - 04:03 PM, said:

I LOVE the HAGs but lets be honest, they are too powerful but useful so here is a few ideas on it:

TLDR: Just space out the time the first pellet and last pellet leave the gun to fix the issue, keeping its strong role but making it more of a damage spreader.

HAGs are doing something wonderful I am enjoying for these last two days, they are putting the hyper sniper mechs in check for sitting in the back without any threat to them besides other snipers.

HAGs are also highly powerful where now I see almost every match someone (including me) getting clean over 900 damage per match easy.

I do not want a big nerf on HAGs because they are REALLY fun, however the power does need to be addressed. I'm thinking if we just spread out the time each pellet is fired after the other (the time between the first to the last pellet from each HAG fired) that might give a good balance without removing the fun and useful weapon it is showing to be.

This can do several things such as:
-Make it harder to kill lights in close range but not so pinpoint at sniper range making it a good med/skirmish range weapon.
-Forces a little more facetime giving the enemy a higher chance to hit back (a lot can just fire and dip faster than laser and MRM mechs)
-Prevents hard nerfs that might make it worse (like giving damage and/or range drop off makes it a less-threat to snipers, or giving it more heat which would not solve the HAG boats which would suffer no such penalty, or prevent Ghost heat nerfs).

I rather have a small nerf like this that makes the gun still feel the same without taking the beauty the weapon current feels like to balance the game.

I want to know your thoughts or what you feel are other options

Agreed. I love HAG, but it might need a slightly slower firing rate. Lets not be too hasty though.

Adding a bit more heat may be a good balance though.

It's a new system, we should give it time to get more statistics on use.

I've been using 2xHAG 20 and really like it. Low cycle time and it concentrates the damage nicely.

[VaelophisNyx]

Tywren, on 24 August 2023 - 08:07 PM, said:

Clearly you don't understand how HAGs (or gauss in general) work. You can't go over the weapon's HSL because you can only charge/fire 2 gauss type weapons at a time, don't believe me, then try it yourself. take a Direwolf and pack it with 4 HAG 20s, and put them all on one trigger, only two will charge at a time, then try switching to two different triggers and hold them both down at once, again only two will charge (one on each trigger). the best you can do is immediately start charging the second set after firing the first, and the charge up time is longer than the .5 seconds needed to trigger HSL.

And no, gauss aren't supposed to be a midrange weapon. even going back to TT the gauss has had a range parity with LRMs, and the charge up timer was added in the first place to make it more comparable to the large laser (charge up time originally being the same as the burn time of a LL) to balance gauss toward the sniper role.

You do realize HGauss has half the range of standard/light/CGauss mostly because it absolutely dumpsters people right? HAGs having nearly the range of a standard gauss rifle, and dealing (at most) almost twice the damage of an HGauss is not acceptable in the least. These are rapid fire brawling weapons that in tabletop alone never got balanced right.

These were a terrible addition to the game, almost every match is now just HAG spam from clan mechs. Non-HAG brawlers cannot compete. Non-HAG midrange builds do not compete. Non-HAG snipers only barely compete. They are hands down completely broken in their current state.

[VaelophisNyx]

Also quick example, any C-Gauss build can drop a HAG-20 into itself in place of its gauss rifle(s) and receive a damage upgrade, with extra tonnage to spare. Basically no significant range change, better sustain, better damage, better tonnage, it's cheaper than C-Gauss too. HAGs are not ok.

[LordNothing]

if it does need a nerf, and i dont think it does, id go with spread. formation seems a bit tight for spray and pray weapons. the smaller hags are definately fine. i did a lot of hag 20-30 builds today and they seemed suboptimal.

[Vxheous]

LordNothing, on 25 August 2023 - 02:04 AM, said:

if it does need a nerf, and i dont think it does, id go with spread. formation seems a bit tight for spray and pray weapons. the smaller hags are definately fine. i did a lot of hag 20-30 builds today and they seemed suboptimal.

The spread on them makes shooting anything smaller than a heavy at range miss half the pellets.

[MechB Kotare]

Kiran Yagami, on 24 August 2023 - 08:58 PM, said:

HAGs are terrible. They're good damage farm, but I'd rather have a regular gauss rifle in every situation.

Exactly this. Hags are better Clan autocannons, a gauss rifle weapon system that is good at brawling. Calling them massively good (not saying they are bad in some situations) or OP, when their efficiency drops rapidly the bigger they are, and the further they shoot is massive overexaggeration.

Its like saying that SRM/LBX/AC builds over 90+ alpha are OP, because they can melt things at 300m...

cGauss > cHAG

Edited by MechB Kotare, 25 August 2023 - 03:12 AM.

[pbiggz]

Vxheous, on 25 August 2023 - 02:25 AM, said:

The spread on them makes shooting anything smaller than a heavy at range miss half the pellets.

Precisely,

they are big and scary and you whiff half your shots. If anything they need a slight buff but they are fun to use, so I would say leave them where they are. They are more like a clan MRM than a RAC; high theoretical alpha but on a weapon that is difficult to aim.

OP and VelophisNyx evidently got rocked, panicked, and died to HAGs and instead of spending even a second to test them out or see how to counterplay, they are here demanding nerfs. This is a typical pattern.

[KursedVixen]

LordNothing, on 24 August 2023 - 05:20 PM, said:

of all the new weapons the hags seem to be the best balanced. the blazer is the op weapon (but only due to gh limit not being the intended value), and the xpulse, especially the small and medium being the weaker options.

is have things like the mrm40 and the hgauss that can dump lots of damage. hags provide parity to these abilities.

you forgot the heavy gauss which is almost the exact equivilent to the HAG

pbiggz, on 25 August 2023 - 06:08 AM, said:

Precisely,

they are big and scary and you whiff half your shots. If anything they need a slight buff but they are fun to use, so I would say leave them where they are. They are more like a clan MRM than a RAC; high theoretical alpha but on a weapon that is difficult to aim. i mean the heavy gauss is colder and it does as much damage as a hag 20 and an ac5 combined and has about the same range optimization.

OP and VelophisNyx evidently got rocked, panicked, and died to HAGs and instead of spending even a second to test them out or see how to counterplay, they are here demanding nerfs. This is a typical pattern.

I do think they need a minor buff either lower their heat just a bit (Max 2 heat) or lowere the spread just a tad..) But i would be fine if they left them as is. i mean the heavy gauss does like 1/4th more times the damage and only does 2 heat while the HAG20 does 5.5 heat personlly i think it should be like 3.5 or somewhat near that.

Edited by KursedVixen, 25 August 2023 - 06:18 AM.

[An6ryMan69]

Agree they are OP.

Jenners running around with HAG40 or jumpy medium mechs with HAG20x2 plus secondary weapons is just too much. Then you add assaults with HAG20X4 plus some secondary weapons...

To change perspective on this, we're not letting Urbies run around with HGauss and plenty of ammo, or having dual Guass plus medium lasers Shadow Hawks poptarting around all match long either....but with HAGs right now, this would be a fair comparison.

At least on T3, most matches I'm seeing are now HAG dominated by default.

I would suggest three smaller nerfs to balance - add weight to each model of the weapon, increase spread and increase cooldown. Not massively in each area, but some of each to reduce overall effectiveness and to also make these weapons generally only carried by the big boys.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 25 August 2023 - 08:19 AM.

[pbiggz]

An6ryMan69, on 25 August 2023 - 08:09 AM, said:

Agree they are OP.

Jenners running around with HAG40 or jumpy medium mechs with HAG20x2 plus secondary weapons is just too much. Then you add assaults with HAG20X4 plus some secondary weapons...

To change perspective on this, we're not letting Urbies run around with HGauss and plenty of ammo, or having dual Guass plus medium lasers Shadow Hawks poptarting around all match long either....but with HAGs right now, this would be a fair comparison.

At least on T3, most matches I'm seeing are now HAG dominated by default.

I would suggest three smaller nerfs to balance - add weight to each model of the weapon, increase spread and increase cooldown. Not massively in each area, but some of each to reduce overall effectiveness and to also make these weapons generally only carried by the big boys.

The weapons went in 3 days ago. You are seeing them more often because people are trying them. Hell, im seeing large X pulses almost every match and they are objectively dogshit. Does that mean they need a nerf?

No, it means people are trying them out. HAGs will settle out. Blazers are slightly overperforming on like, a couple of very slow assault mechs that can still boat them with the higher HSL (they are hot, even without ghost heat), and medium X pulses are about the only x pulse worth taking, smalls are niche and larges are anemic.

HAGs have high theoretical damage but are very tricky to aim. Like MRMs, you can just walk out of the stream and the HAG user whiffs half his volley.

I dont know why you guys are so determined to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Elizander]

Torso twisting seems to be a lost art.

[An6ryMan69]

pbiggz, on 25 August 2023 - 08:24 AM, said:

The weapons went in 3 days ago. You are seeing them more often because people are trying them. Hell, im seeing large X pulses almost every match and they are objectively dogshit. Does that mean they need a nerf?

No, it means people are trying them out. HAGs will settle out. Blazers are slightly overperforming on like, a couple of very slow assault mechs that can still boat them with the higher HSL (they are hot, even without ghost heat), and medium X pulses are about the only x pulse worth taking, smalls are niche and larges are anemic.

HAGs have high theoretical damage but are very tricky to aim. Like MRMs, you can just walk out of the stream and the HAG user whiffs half his volley.

I dont know why you guys are so determined to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I agree with you on the novelty of the new weapons, and both the X-Pulse and the BLaser positions you have, and I specifically tried the Stalker build and find it pretty meh, due to heat.

However right now HAGs are pretty much re-writing clan ballistic builds and it isn't a power creep, its a really big jump ahead of the competition. Whether its a Jenner with HAG40 or a Veagle with HAG20x2, or a Dire Wolf with HAG30x2 and HAG20x2 and 9.5 tons of ammo, we're talking about a seismic shift in ballistics in this game right now as far as I can tell. Anyway, just my opinion.