346 replies to this topic

[BlueDevilspawn]

Balance is balance - there was a point at which IS MPL and CERPPC were the primary weapons and the most viable mechs designed around those. The cauldron has made multiple chassis, variants, and weapons if not meta, then viable. Calculations like dps, dph, sheer alpha, boat-ability, etc. are factors in balance. Good players play ALL the weapon and mech types to see if anything plays poorly or feels weak/overpowered. The builds and skill trees (e.g. for LRMs) must be fully optimized to be tested (not some cludged together mech build nor a non-optimal tree)

Therefore, the notion of being in the Cauldron as a good pilot means one is able to play any weight class, mech, variant, weapons, etc. to properly gauge whether a weapon is too strong or too weak. Anyone can theorycraft, but to actually apply it in QP is another question. If one can't handle gauss charge, or position properly, etc. then they aren't properly testing mechs/weapons for proper balance.

If the game were balanced around the lower tier play, what consistency is there to prove a weapon isn't OP or is? Or a certain chassis is too strong or isn't?

As I've said in a previous post, the overlap of comp is simply because many comp players incidentally happen to be among the best players. However, the Cauldron's focus is primarily on QP.

Finally, as was posted above, I think all of the Cauldron members are professionals with careers (plenty of engineers btw) or in one case a college student, and have all the usual trappings of a "normal" life as one puts it (family, kids, etc). To make the assumption that they have no lives except MWO and live in their parents' basements is a stereotypical and incorrect assumption (frankly it's copium). Oh and a number of them love the universe/lore, but understand the distinction between tabletop and first-person shooter balance.

[redacted]

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 15 January 2024 - 03:15 AM.
discussing moderation

[Heavy Money]

Amazing how the arguments in this thread have devolved into "We have secret balance knowledge because we are bad at the game. You just wouldn't get it, toxic compie."

[Lion El Johnsonn]

[kalashnikity]

I think PGI can clearly see that the player base is enthusiastically not ok with Cauldron regulating LRMs to the dust bin of history, just because a certain tiny subset of customers does not like them and wants to impugn anybody who enjoys using them.

Edited by kalashnikity, 11 January 2024 - 11:44 PM.

[Curccu]

kalashnikity, on 11 January 2024 - 11:43 PM, said:

I think PGI can clearly see that the player base is enthusiastically not ok with Cauldron regulating LRMs to the dust bin of history, just because a certain tiny subset of customers does not like them and wants to impugn anybody who enjoys using them.

Who is this player base?

[Mousarchy]

ScrapIron Prime, on 06 January 2024 - 01:41 PM, said:

Yeah, seconded. ANOTHER LRM nerf? The missiles are already subsonic, you want to slow them down even more? And what, give that velocity back on Artemis so there’s another tax on being able to fire indirect?

It better be a helluva velocity boost for Artemis… like MRM speed.

everyone so set on avoiding using AMS so much because 'muh dps'. they need that 1.5t; they gotta nerf the weapon thats generally considered "bad" unless you boat 80+ of em.
I feel they are justifing the velo nerf cuz "shallower angel so the speed is to make the time to arive approximatly the same" while ignoring this basically means they are weaker to ams AND weak to the smallest of cover

[Duke Falcon]

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 01:30 PM, said:

I'm sorry but do you remember WC 2018? It was stock mechs, what you guys always wanted. Claimed that the meta was tailored toward tryhards, that's why you guys weren't doing good. Well, the tryhard compies won that too, with stock mechs, so no you're wrong. Balance isn't tailored to compies, compies will beat you with anything any time, unfortunately for you.

It makes no sense to balance the game for the lowest denominator of skill because at that level, anyone can get away with anything. People stand still and don't realize they're being shot in the back, etc. And then, if players do improve, they will probably quit the game if it's unbalanced at the top. A good video game rewards players for learning how to play it, not handing them everything on a silver platter. Anyway, if you really want to go by that logic that the game should be balanced by the low tiers, we should SEVERELY nerf LRMs, because for the majority of the playerbase, LRMs are very strong because they don't have to aim or think, which covers their weaknesses.

Anyway, the Cauldron always takes into account lower tier experiences so I don't even know what you're complaining about.

As for lock-ons being reworked, it'll never happen because PGI is done putting effort into developing this game. And your suggestion... is awful. % based chance to hit is just a dice roll, and that is very bad game design that creates frustration for players who want things to be fair.

I play since 2021. So no, not remember.
Joined earlier but I were a staunch XP-user so I could barely may able to got MWO work.

But...

Considering everything for REAL, all these debates are pointless. MWO cannot be balanced. You know it, I know it, PGI know it and even Cauldron know it. Most that could be achieved that some terrible things get less terrible but not balanced. That need some "go deep into the code" because certain mechanics are implemented badly.

As for LRMs, I not consider them a real threath ever since I play this game. Those weren't threathing when I were a cadet. Easy to counter them even on low tiers. On my tier. They never were a serious weapon without dedicated help-hands and they just got nerfed again and again. ECM + AMS with some cover and done! The only good thing about them is that it is funny as they fill the sky and rain down BUT you know they would not really cause any real harm. Those just fun to play time to time. Basicly.

HAGs... Splash is a bit strange for them. Spread would be more sane. HAG is essentially GAUSS. But I wonder how splash would work? Like cER-PPC it would transfer 2.5 damage for neighbouring parts? Overall or per bullets? Overall keep them still pretty strong. Per bullets make them a bit strange...

[Samziel]

Duke Falcon, on 12 January 2024 - 01:31 AM, said:

I play since 2021. So no, not remember.
Joined earlier but I were a staunch XP-user so I could barely may able to got MWO work.

But...

Considering everything for REAL, all these debates are pointless. MWO cannot be balanced. You know it, I know it, PGI know it and even Cauldron know it. Most that could be achieved that some terrible things get less terrible but not balanced. That need some "go deep into the code" because certain mechanics are implemented badly.

As for LRMs, I not consider them a real threath ever since I play this game. Those weren't threathing when I were a cadet. Easy to counter them even on low tiers. On my tier. They never were a serious weapon without dedicated help-hands and they just got nerfed again and again. ECM + AMS with some cover and done! The only good thing about them is that it is funny as they fill the sky and rain down BUT you know they would not really cause any real harm. Those just fun to play time to time. Basicly.

HAGs... Splash is a bit strange for them. Spread would be more sane. HAG is essentially GAUSS. But I wonder how splash would work? Like cER-PPC it would transfer 2.5 damage for neighbouring parts? Overall or per bullets? Overall keep them still pretty strong. Per bullets make them a bit strange...

Hag change is indeed per bullet, which reduces its "pinpoint" damage by 20%. Total damage uneffected but I'd say its still quite a nerf in total.

Last year I made a stock only account for fun.I got myself an ACW-A. It has 2 SPL, 2SRM6s and 2 LRM15s. I was able to do 1200 damage mostly with the LRMs in T5. People simply didnt even notice they were rained upon. Obviously that was only a single game, but lurming was easy and quite consistent. The map was FWC btw, a map lots of LRM players complain about having too much cover for LRMs.

Not saying its always this easy, but T5 players are an easy target for them. I stopped playing the account shortly after. It's not fun to smurf.

Edited by Samziel, 12 January 2024 - 02:24 AM.

[w0qj]

I’ve jumped the gun to summarize the Jan’2024 Patch for HAG:
https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes

Clan: HAG20 / HAG30 / HAG40 (Hyper Assault Gauss Rifle)
~~HAG20: 4x projectile shells per burst (Projectile Shell damage+splash profile: 0.5 / 4 / 0.5)
~~HAG30: 6x projectile shells per burst (Projectile Shell damage+splash profile: 0.5 / 4 / 0.5)
~~HAG40: 8x projectile shells per burst (Projectile Shell damage+splash profile: 0.5 / 4 / 0.5)

Duke Falcon, on 12 January 2024 - 01:31 AM, said:

…HAGs... Splash is a bit strange for them. Spread would be more sane. HAG is essentially GAUSS. But I wonder how splash would work? Like cER-PPC it would transfer 2.5 damage for neighbouring parts? Overall or per bullets? Overall keep them still pretty strong. Per bullets make them a bit strange...

Edited by w0qj, 12 January 2024 - 05:24 AM.

[MechMaster059]

ScrapIron Prime, on 11 January 2024 - 08:39 AM, said:

The first rule of engineer club, don't talk about being in engineer club. I know this because I'm an engineer.

LOL. It appears the forum mod has removed Quicksilver's post asking people to drink a shot every time I claim I'm an engineer, which I wasn't offended by and found amusing.

I say I'm an engineer because I feel it's important people realize what they're dealing with in much of the Cauldron. Yes, many of them are skilled players but they miss simple things over and over every patch and it drives me FRIGGIN NUTS. It took me 1 minute to compute those updated 2 caliber ballistic +ammo/ton skill values on my hand calculator. Those settings are almost certainly in a flat file that could be fixed in 2 seconds. Couple the ease with which these changes could be made with the obnoxious "I know better because I'm Tier 1 so I'm not listening to you" mentality displayed by these "Gold Champ" players and it gets frustrating.

I know my place in the engineer hierarchy. I consider myself merely a decent software engineer, above-average, but nothing spectacular. I'd be blown away by the engineers working at NASA or Tesla. That's what's infuriating though, the bar is set so low for dotting every I and crossing every T in these patches, yet it doesn't get done. Then to make it worse, even after pointing out these flaws I know they likely will NOT be fixed... ever.

Cauldron Motto:
"If we don't fix it, we can pretend it's not broken."

ScrapIron Prime, on 11 January 2024 - 08:39 AM, said:

What he is wrong about is that PGI would care from a customer service point of view.

LMAO


On to... Bassault.

Bassault, on 10 January 2024 - 10:31 AM, said:

Just because a weapon takes no skill to use, that doesn't mean it has to be effective.

I want people to understand just how dangerous this statement is to weapon balance.

Bassault is stating that if a weapon "takes no skill to use", then it's acceptable for it to be INEFFECTIVE. I'm not misconstruing his words am I? I'm not exaggerating right?

Bassault, on 10 January 2024 - 10:31 AM, said:

Lock ons are easy for bad players to use, but their capacity to be effective compared to other weapons is limited (unless you have a narc spotter in a group lol). This is the way it should be

Let me put that in simple terms for all of you: Bassault doesn't care if LRMs or STREAKs suck. In his mind they SHOULD suck because they're so "easy" to use.

Pssst... hey, um Bassault... guess what happens if a weapons effectiveness drops below a certain threshold?... players stop equipping the weapon altogether... ya get it?
/slap Bassault

Yup, I slapped Bassault. That just happened folks. Now I've gone and done it...

Bassault, on 10 January 2024 - 10:31 AM, said:

When you say holding a lock on a light is VERY HARD, it is very hard but not because it takes some mastering of a very difficult skill. It is hard because the LRMs are so limited it just makes that not really possible in most circumstances.

Makes post after post claiming LRMs are easy mode, then acknowledges that holding a lock on a light mech is "not really possible in most circumstances".

Bassault, on 10 January 2024 - 10:31 AM, said:

Holding the lock itself takes no effort at all, its trivial.

You just said in your previous sentence that holding a lock on a light mech was "not really possible in most circumstances". Which is it?

Bassault, on 10 January 2024 - 10:31 AM, said:

You press R and move your mouse over a massive box over the enemy. You dont need to be precise or have perfect timing.

No way this guy has played an LRM mech any time recently. Holding the targeting reticle over a light mech maneuvering in the heat of combat below 300m is not easy at all. I'm not saying it's the hardest thing in the game, but it certainly isn't "trivial" as Bassault glibly claims it to be.

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 07:11 AM, said:

You're not good at the game and you clearly do not understand how it works. What makes you think should you be consulted for balancing the game then?

Proclaims I don't understand how the game works even though I reached Tier 2, have used every weapon, and played/own every different role of mech for over a year.
Ignores the fact that 2 changes I advocated for a year ago have been implemented. (increasing ammo/ton for 2,5,20 caliber ballistics; lowering UAC10 jam duration)
Ignores the fact I pointed out 2 flaws currenty in +ammo/ton skills for ballistics. (2 and 5 caliber ballistic +ammo/ton skills were not normalized with the increased ammo/ton buff; HAGs receive too much benefit from +ammo/ton skills)

Then asks me what makes me think I should be consulted for balancing the game. This kids arrogance is through the roof. It's OK Bassault, I know someone who's full of themselves can't help but be condescending.

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 07:11 AM, said:

Should I ask the fat guy at the sports bar for advice on how to compete in a NASCAR race or should I ask one of the drivers who has won them multiple times?

Let me give you a more accurate analogy using your NASCAR example. Who maintains the car? The driver or the mechanic?

You see Bassault, you're the driver and I'm the mechanic. And just for the record, the mechanic's job requires FAR MORE INTELLECT than the driver's.

You get to mindlessly drive around the track in your Stone Rhino AKSUM blasting any poor sap who happens to stand in front of you for 2 seconds while I, the mechanic, have to know all the in's and out's of the various car systems. I have to do the calculations and numeric analysis required to post about problems with the game. All you have to do is say "Get Gud" or "Be Tier 1 or GTFO".

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 07:11 AM, said:

When I was still learning how to play the game, I did not make great proclamations about balance and how things should be. I listened to others, I learned how things worked, I got good at the game, and then I started giving my two cents on how balance. I think you should improve at the game before you start acting like an expert.

I'm well past the "learning how to play" phase thank you. It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them.

=====

Folks, I could go on responding to Bassault but it's probably already gotten boring for those of you reading this. Let me give you my 2 cents about Bassault and also where I stand in the game.

I've seen Bassault in game. Not just once or twice, but probably about a dozen times. He's always piloting a heavily armed dakka/sniper assault mech. I've never seen Bassault pilot a light mech. None of the statements he makes or attitudes he displays surprise me. He fits every negative stereotype you'd expect of an assault sniper that thinks their style of play takes the most skill.

Let me clearly state that the sniper role is THE EASIEST and LEAST SKILLED way to play the game. I know this for a fact because the mech I used to grind up to Tier 2 was a Night Gyr HAG20 Sniper. (I experimented with Mad Cat II HAG builds and Shadowcat HAG builds as well) Here's my NTG-H build: A;<D<:B1|=Sph0UY7|m<2|l^|<S|<Sqh0SY7|0C|l^|<Sr]0RY7|WC|l^s]0VY7|WC|l^th0WY7uh0XY7v60QY7|mBw806060

Here's a picture of me first breaking into Tier 2:


Here's a picture of me currently back in the middle of Tier 3:


The reason I lost so much rating is that I got tired of grinding with the Night Gyr and had wanted to play some other mechs. One mech that caught my eye is the Charger Number 7 and when its 90% crit chance reduction got buffed to 100% I just had to see what that was like in game. Once I start playing a new mech I tend to go down a rabbit hole playing it incessantly in search of "The Build". I experiment with a wide variety of layouts trying to find what works best. The CGR-N7 was my first time experimenting with Heavy PPCs, regular PPCs, and Binary Laser Cannons. I knew playing a different mech and experimenting with different builds we cost me rating but I just had to play the N7. (This was also intermixed sometimes playing my dakka Rifleman, and my Trebuchet)

I learned a TON more about MWO with my little stint playing the N7. I learned just how under-powered IS PPC weapons are, I learned how kick-azz the BLC is, and I discovered another major flaw in the game.

I have absolutely no doubt I can grind my way back to Tier 2 using the Night Gyr. None. It's just a matter of sticking to the grind. What's so striking about the Sniper play style is just how much safer it is, and just how little margin for error it imposes upon the enemy. I can unload a 64 damage alpha in 1 second through a key hole out to 550m with this build.

Bassault likes to run his mouth about how much "skill" this play style requires but the reality is that "skill" only needs to be maintained for the briefest of moments when you aim and fire. You can massively punish the enemy, from far away, in a short amount of time, for little effort.

=====

Since you think you're more qualified to make balance suggestions Bassault, lets have a little design session here. What are your answers to the follow questions:

- There is a dead node in the skill tree, a node that is nearly useless no matter what mech or build. Can you guess which node?

- There is a cluster of nodes in the skill tree that give barely/no benefit to light mechs after the 1st point in the group. Can you guess which group?

- What do the following numbers refer to and do they indicate any kind of problem:
(3.75x120)/(1.70x0.5) = 529.4; (1.70/3.75) = 0.453
(3.75x150)/(2.00x0.5) = 562.5; (2.00/3.75) = 0.533
(4.30x200)/(1.70x1.0) = 505.8; (1.70/4.30) = 0.395
(4.40x200)/(2.25x1.0) = 391.1; (2.25/4.40) = 0.511
(5.65x220)/(2.55x2.0) = 243.7; (2.55/5.65) = 0.451

- There is a major flaw in how assault mechs move that I discovered when playing the CGR-N7. This flaw significantly reduces the usefulness of the Hard Break skill for assaults. Can you describe this flaw?

Edited by MechMaster059, 12 January 2024 - 03:48 AM.

[Samziel]

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

Enormous wall of text

Honestly, you not being higher tier is NOT because you refuse to play meta builds. I got T1 mostly using midrange/brawl builds that werent even comp builds or meta mechs.

Also you being engineer doesnt matter for the balance of a video game. Understanding the game does. Point of people (some blunt, some less so) saying LRMs shouldnt be too effective is that in essence the weapon aims for you. Yes, it shouldnt be a huge chore to get locks, but after you do they shouldnt be aimbot doomsday nukes. Thats whats being changed here. Make the weapon more consistent by offering you better locks and making the weapon (indirect fire) bit easier to evade.

I still wish we got a proper LRM apocalypse so newer players like you have a chance to experience how much it sucks to not be able to do anything after one guy spots you. There was a big exodus of players after one such patch, and I guess thats why Cauldron takes things very carefully when touching LRMs.

Edited by Samziel, 12 January 2024 - 04:11 AM.

[Saved By The Bell]

I played LRM orion (yeah! ON1-M) this week.
I tried many combo with ac20, snubs, mrm, lbx. And eventually returned to lrm, how it should be. It wasn`t bad.

Thats all, you still can play LRMs.

[Dogmeat1]

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

LOL. It appears the forum mod has removed Quicksilver's post asking people to drink a shot every time I claim I'm an engineer, which I wasn't offended by and found amusing.

I say I'm an engineer because I feel it's important people realize what they're dealing with in much of the Cauldron. Yes, many of them are skilled players but they miss simple things over and over every patch and it drives me FRIGGIN NUTS. It took me 1 minute to compute those updated 2 caliber ballistic +ammo/ton skill values on my hand calculator. Those settings are almost certainly in a flat file that could be fixed in 2 seconds. Couple the ease with which these changes could be made with the obnoxious "I know better because I'm Tier 1 so I'm not listening to you" mentality displayed by these "Gold Champ" players and it gets frustrating.

Repeatedly claiming to be an engineer is not going to win you any brownie points. There are at least 3 actual qualified engineers in the cauldron. I studied software engineering myself at a QS top 50 ranked university and plenty of my former comp teammates have similar levels of education. However, do you know what that means in terms of knowing and being able to balance a online multiplayer PvP game? Absolutely nothing. Competency and deep knowledge of the game mechanics, as well as a good understanding of the game files is what matters and the Cauldron are among the top of the MWO population in those regards.

Quote

Bassault is stating that if a weapon "takes no skill to use", then it's acceptable for it to be INEFFECTIVE. I'm not misconstruing his words am I? I'm not exaggerating right?

You are misinterpreting what people are telling you. The point is that a weapon that requires less skill to use should not outperform weapons that uses more skill. That would be an incredibly bad design decision. Let me make this simple for you; in basketball an outside shot is worth 3 points because it is more difficult than an inside shot. However, if we made inside shots worth 4 points do you think there would be any reason for people to attempt 3 pointers? This is the same as human aimed weapons vs lock-ons. The former require far more skill to use hence why the rewards should be higher. This is very basic game design logic.

Quote

Proclaims I don't understand how the game works even though I reached Tier 2, have used every weapon, and played/own every different role of mech for over a year.

The bar to get into tier 2 is very low. Tier 3 and lower tends to be populated with players who do not have a good grasp of the game's mechanics such as new and casual players. Someone who understands the game well, and has at least average mechanical skills, should have no issue achieving tier 1 (or tier 2 at worst) within a few thousand games regardless of their preferred playstyle. I was able to go from tier 4 to tier 1 within 100 games using only unskilled trial mechs on a brand-new account. It's really not hard.

Someone who is stuck at tier 3 long-term is likely either a casual player or someone who lacks understanding of the game. Not everyone needs to be try-hard so there is nothing wrong with that, but if a given player doesn't have a good understanding then they are really not going to be the best person to give advice on balancing. That doesn't mean they can't have valid concerns but odds they are going to make a lot of incorrect assumptions about mechanics.

Quote

Let me give you a more accurate analogy using your NASCAR example. Who maintains the car? The driver or the mechanic?

You see Bassault, you're the driver and I'm the mechanic. And just for the record, the mechanic's job requires FAR MORE INTELLECT than the driver's.

The problem is you are a driver and not a mechanic. A better analogy would be that you are an average joe driver who thinks that they are qualified to tell race car mechanics how to do their jobs.

Quote

I'm well past the "learning how to play" phase thank you. It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them.[/color]

No one is past the learning phase and it’s often people who think they are that haven't actually achieved competency yet. This is true in many aspects of life and is no different in mwo.

Quote

There is a dead node in the skill tree, a node that is nearly useless no matter what mech or build. Can you guess which node?

You have posted incorrect assumptions about game mechanics a number of times already on this thread so why don't go ahead and tell us which one you believe is broken first?

Edited by Dogmeat1, 12 January 2024 - 05:46 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

I'm not insulting players for not being skilled.

Well you "conveniently" have edited that insult

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

I'm insulting players who are not skilled, go to the forums, and then act like they know what they're talking about when in reality it's just people saying a lot about something they understand nothing about and acting entitled and bitchy when it's pointed out that they indeed, do not know what they are talking about.

And in in that form the insult is still based on the underlying non-sequitur of yours where you claim an unproven strong correlation between "skilled" players and (allegedly) knowing what they are talking about vs, "unskilled" players and (allegedly) not knowing what they are talking about.
Prove your claims on that beyond your dogmatic approach and you'd still be an arse due to making the insult in the first place.

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

You guys come here,

Ah. so now I'm guilty by some form of association? Or did I simply forget where I talked about ...

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

spout nonsense that LRMs take skill

... LRM usage requiring skill?

Another one of your fallacies

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

(when it's obvious to anyone who understands how the game works, that it takes no skill,

And another unproven claim that actually doesn't hinge on "understanding how the game works" but rather on the obviously existing differences in perception what exactly establishes (overall) skill ... where you clearly put extreme emphasis on twitch skills and your own 99 percentile arrogance.

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

go down a few pages for explanations that you probably didn't read),

And now you're making wild assumptions about what I may or may not have done.

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

then your stats also show that you have no idea what you're doing...

How exactly do my stats "show" anything like that?

Bassault, on 11 January 2024 - 12:25 PM, said:

Says nonsense, plays terribly, thinks their opinion is gospel. Get real.

I'll get very real with you right here: Your argumentation "skill" is below average because all you have is unsubstantiated claims that you complement with various fallacies and when everything else fails you resort to direct insults.
So the questions now are:

• What "nonsense" did I write exactly?
  
• By what metric do I play "terribly"?
  
• Where did I express that my opinion should be considered "gospel"?

Hint: Some of these questions may or may not aim at more of your fallacious reasoning

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 12 January 2024 - 06:59 AM.

[Navid A1]

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

- What do the following numbers refer to and do they indicate any kind of problem:
(3.75x120)/(1.70x0.5) = 529.4; (1.70/3.75) = 0.453
(3.75x150)/(2.00x0.5) = 562.5; (2.00/3.75) = 0.533
(4.30x200)/(1.70x1.0) = 505.8; (1.70/4.30) = 0.395
(4.40x200)/(2.25x1.0) = 391.1; (2.25/4.40) = 0.511
(5.65x220)/(2.55x2.0) = 243.7; (2.55/5.65) = 0.451

Sorry but couldn't help but notice this numbers vomit here.

If you think this mess which is copied Jump Jet stats from the wiki and multiplied together in a nonsense way have any meaning, you either don't understand any of the stats in a fundamental way. Or your intent was to intimidate someone that don't know them rather than trying to convey any meaning. In case it is the former, I'll be able to explain what each of those JJ stats mean, if you want.


Also, what you describe as being an engineer seems more like having an obsession with numbers looking nice without looking past that towards the end result on the game and taking into account the limitations and constraints that each and every mech has. Jump Jets don't have clan or IS distinction, one change to one JJ class means every mech that uses them is affected and needs to be looked at. Since mechs are wildly different in their setup, how many JJs they can pack and how many of them are locked into the mech, you'll see values that might not look "nice" on paper, but do what they are intended to do.
I'd expect an engineer to know these basics.

Edit: Typo fix.

Edited by Navid A1, 12 January 2024 - 06:48 AM.

[Shineplasma]

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

I say I'm an engineer because I feel it's important people realize what they're dealing with in much of the Cauldron. Yes, many of them are skilled players but they miss simple things over and over every patch and it drives me FRIGGIN NUTS. It took me 1 minute to compute those updated 2 caliber ballistic +ammo/ton skill values on my hand calculator. Those settings are almost certainly in a flat file that could be fixed in 2 seconds. Couple the ease with which these changes could be made with the obnoxious "I know better because I'm Tier 1 so I'm not listening to you" mentality displayed by these "Gold Champ" players and it gets frustrating.

Proclaims I don't understand how the game works even though I reached Tier 2, have used every weapon, and played/own every different role of mech for over a year.

Let me give you a more accurate analogy using your NASCAR example. Who maintains the car? The driver or the mechanic?

You see Bassault, you're the driver and I'm the mechanic. And just for the record, the mechanic's job requires FAR MORE INTELLECT than the driver's.

You get to mindlessly drive around the track in your Stone Rhino AKSUM blasting any poor sap who happens to stand in front of you for 2 seconds while I, the mechanic, have to know all the in's and out's of the various car systems. I have to do the calculations and numeric analysis required to post about problems with the game. All you have to do is say "Get Gud" or "Be Tier 1 or GTFO".

I'm well past the "learning how to play" phase thank you. It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them.

Look dude, you're no Nascar mechanic. Right now, you're not even a driver on your local dirt track. You're some guy caught in NJ Turnpike Traffic in his '91 Toyota Camry on a hot summer day with nothing to drink and your blower motor just stopped working, leaving you trapped in a hot box, which reeks of flatulence from the gas station chili cheese dog you picked up on the way home.

"I'm well past the "learning how to play" phase thank you. It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them."

And this right here, this is one of the most arrogant and out of touch things I've read in a long time. Anywhere. Nobody is out of the "learning how to play" phase of this game. Despite MWO's playerbase being much lower skill on average vs other games, the skillcap in this game is incredibly high. The very best players this game has ever seen make mistakes all the time and the truly great among them would NEVER make the claim quoted above. Ever.

You're so out of your depth here it is literally just comical. You're a goldfish, who upon being dumped from a child's fishbowl into the toilet, then attempts to write a dissertation on the ecology of the Marianas Trench.

Anybody with the barest degree of competence will hit T1, and T1 is full of pilots of all skill levels. It actually has the highest skill spread of any tier in the entire game due to pilot MMR (PSR) capping out and how exponentially better at the game the top 99.9% of players are vs anyone else.

Myself, I'm T1 and my PSR bar is capped out. I play all weight classes and play styles in this game at a competent level. I was considered good enough to start some games for a team which dominated competitive play and won the world championship this past season.

Would I ever claim to be as good as the ACTUAL nascar drivers or mechanics you mention above? To have a better handle on the mechanics of this complex game? No, because their efforts carried my *** this entire last season, outside of a couple bright spots. I showed up and put the hours in, they did the rest.

Are you familiar with the concept of a bell curve, Mr Engineer? Mr Mech "Master"?

Because your average distribution in this (lower than avg skill level) game population is about 72nd percentile, and your overall win/loss is .99 Meaning your winrate is less than 50%. You, personally, have an overall negative effect on the potential win/loss of any team the matchmaker throws you on. In my opinion, that simple fact is both more cutting and telling than any insult yet posted on this thread.

How can you claim to have such a higher level of intellect than the pilots and strategists that have literally spent thousands and thousands of hours breaking this game down to the nittiest, grittiest detail possible and practicing/nailing down gameplay concepts of which you obviously haven't even the foggiest level of awareness.

The sheer arrogance is simply staggering, and so far the only indicator lending any credence to your claim of being an engineer.

You may be good or even great in other aspects of your life, sir. But when it comes to MWO?

"It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them."

Look inwards for half a second there bud. You're the living, typing personification of Dunning-Kruger.

Edited by Shineplasma, 12 January 2024 - 09:06 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 11 January 2024 - 10:48 AM, said:

I mean they aren't wrong about them being suboptimal. The 4J for example doesn't need medium lasers when small lasers work just fine and it's a little on the slow side. No BAP is rough. However it also hasn't been good since it lost the 50% cooldown and subsequent power creep sunk in. I do remember my days in QQ where Jman5 ran that thing often in comp but even he recognized limitations of LRMs back then. He wouldn't have suggested more than one LRM mech and that he was OFTEN the first gun online in trades and he had no issue with velocity. However those days were also before the proliferation of ECM (which isn't a coincidence IMO).

That said, 4J benefits from the same things that all LRM mechs do, especially things like nerfs to AMS which makes low volume LRMs like that less useful (AMS accelerates the tube arm race because much like lock-ons, and ECM, it also suffers from flawed mechanics).

Jumping back to this for a second...

https://mwo.nav-alph...8ca3b50b_HBK-4J

You comment on it contains "The 4J for example doesn't need medium lasers when small lasers work just fine". That right there tells everyone that you've never played a mech like this. Small lasers, even ER ones, don't have much of an overlap with the usable range of LRMs. You can't often fire both at the same target at the same time and do more than just tickle with the lasers.

The whole POINT of the build is to score damage with the lasers, which instantly locks up the target for missiles (unless it has ECM, but that's what the TAG is for). Then you drill them with LRMs. It's not EITHER the lasers OR the LRMs, its BOTH the lasers AND the LRMs.

Further, the mech firing the LRMs does not need BAP. If the BAP is in range to be of use against the ECM, then the LRMs are already under minimum range. The only use a BAP is for a mech firing LRMs is to extend the maximum sensor range, but a build such as this doesn't fight at that range.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 12 January 2024 - 09:08 AM.

[Luminios]

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

On to... Bassault.

I want people to understand just how dangerous this statement is to weapon balance.

Bassault is stating that if a weapon "takes no skill to use", then it's acceptable for it to be INEFFECTIVE. I'm not misconstruing his words am I? I'm not exaggerating right?


Let me put that in simple terms for all of you: Bassault doesn't care if LRMs or STREAKs suck. In his mind they SHOULD suck because they're so "easy" to use.

Pssst... hey, um Bassault... guess what happens if a weapons effectiveness drops below a certain threshold?... players stop equipping the weapon altogether... ya get it?

Okay, I am going to try and explain this in terms even engineers that don't work at NASA can understand: If you have a weapon system that achieves the same results that other weapon systems only reach in the hands of the very best players, that is extremely problematic. LRMs and SSRMs have to suck, so that they are a competitive choice for the majority of players - for players like you. If you could equip a weapon and it just puts out damage as efficiently as Bassault does with lasers or ballistics, 99.5% of players would be stupid not to play that weapon. So yeah, LRMs and SSRMs have to suck from the perspective of even just good players as their 'certain threshold' has to be below what they could achieve with weapons that require aim.

/slap MechMaster059. Yep, I just slapped MechMaster059. That just happened folks. Now I've gone and done it ...

Just some quick-fire thoughts on some of the other points you've raised:

Ammo not being not being normalized might very well be intentional as this way all the hundreds of builds using ballistic ammo got improved by the same amount of damage per ton. Ammo quirks are essentially free tonnage. The less impact they have, the better.

If given the choice between having Bassault build me a mech and having you build me a mech, I'd take Bassault 100% of the time - I guess that makes him the mechanic and leaves you without any job.

If you were past the "learning how to play"-phase you wouldn't be T3. Simple as. It is okay not to want to learn how to play, but you clearly aren't done learning.


Finally, your little questions:

• The second Gauss Charge node
  
• Speed Retention
  
• Navid already explained it way better than I ever could
  
• The flaw you noticed is the pilot.

[Arnetheus]

New year starting good with kinds of threads like this one or "PGI, stop nerfing me".
This is amazing.

MechMaster059, on 12 January 2024 - 03:05 AM, said:

Proclaims I don't understand how the game works even though I reached Tier 2, have used every weapon, and played/own every different role of mech for over a year.

Is this... supposed to be commendable or indicative of one's overall game knowledge?
Reaching T1 is not that much of a high bar in the first place you know, as far as MWO is concerned, by comparison to plenty of other FPS'.

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Ignores the fact that 2 changes I advocated for a year ago have been implemented. (increasing ammo/ton for 2,5,20 caliber ballistics; lowering UAC10 jam duration)

And those changes have to do with you what exactly? Weren't you just saying something about arrogance? = )
Plenty of people were asking for that change and Cauldron finally listened. Not a fan of how long it took, personally.

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Then asks me what makes me think I should be consulted for balancing the game. This kids arrogance is through the roof.

Wait, hold the phone, are you seriously attributing those changes to yourself?

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I'm well past the "learning how to play" phase thank you. It's in the nature of the arrogant not to give proper credit where it's due and to look down upon the people around them.

Huh? Imagine talking about arrogance, while admitting to outright willful ignorance.
Have you never heard variations of a phrase "a good master is an eternal student"?
Why are you lecturing Cauldron then, if you have zero desire to better understand the game yourself?
Irony overload.

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Let me clearly state that the sniper role is THE EASIEST and LEAST SKILLED way to play the game. I know this for a fact because the mech I used to grind up to Tier 2 was a Night Gyr HAG20 Sniper.(I experimented with Mad Cat II HAG builds and Shadowcat HAG builds as well)

- Congrats, you failed at step 1 - HAGs are not sniper weapons.
Out of them all, 20s can be used for some range poking but that's it. Or if we're talking about specific 2x HAG-20 builds and nothing else. Even then, it would require a pretty steady aim, which you don't have, by virtue of having "to grind" to get into Tier 2.

- Which brings this question - If it's so easy, why did you have to "grind"? Shouldn't you be getting up arrows like every match and be in Tier 1 in no time?

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Here's my NTG-H build: A;<D<:B1|=Sph0UY7|m<2|l^|<S|<Sqh0SY7|0C|l^|<Sr]0RY7|WC|l^s]0VY7|WC|l^th0WY7uh0XY7v60QY7|mBw806060

So... you downgraded a proper and classic 2x erLL + 2x GR NTG-H, making it worse at the actual sniping.
Ok.

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The reason I lost so much rating is that I got tired of grinding with the Night Gyr and had wanted to play some other mechs.

Ah, there it is again, "grinding" with the "easy to use" sniper mech.

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I knew playing a different mech and experimenting with different builds we cost me rating but I just had to play the N7.

I fail to see how playing a perfectly fine mech like N7 would cause such a PSR loss. But ok, let's attribute it to... i don't know... solar flares. Considering you "used every weapon, and played/own every different role of mech for over a year".

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The CGR-N7 was my first time experimenting with Heavy PPCs, regular PPCs, and Binary Laser Cannons.

Wait, what? But you just said... You know, nevermind = )

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I learned a TON more about MWO with my little stint playing the N7. I learned just how under-powered IS PPC weapons are, I learned how kick-azz the BLC is, and I discovered another major flaw in the game.

It's getting really confusing trying to follow your self-contradictions. Didn't you just mention being "well past the "learning how to play" phase "?

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I have absolutely no doubt I can grind my way back to Tier 2 using the Night Gyr. None. It's just a matter of sticking to the grind.

Again with the "grinding".
Man, the more you keep using that word, the more it seems like all that sniping is not coming easy to you, huh.

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What's so striking about the Sniper play style is just how much safer it is, and just how little margin for error it imposes upon the enemy.
I can unload a 64 damage alpha in 1 second through a key hole out to 550m with this build.

- Safe? Well, if you take about a minute to line up your shots, while making sure not a single mech looks in your general direction, to maintain your fresh 99% of armor while "sniping". Then yes, it is safe = )

- "Margin of error" lies in you having a good aim, enemy being not/aware of you, you and both teams being in proper positions, not/having fast opponents with a semblance of a brain coming after your free ***, most of the enemy not/being smart enough to mover to the other area of map where they can still shoot your team but you can't shoot them, etc.
So, you know, plenty of general knowledge checks resulting in certain match results, one way or the other.

- Sorry to burst your bubble, but 550m is not sniping, it's mid-range. Which is about 350-650m.

- 64 alpha with 2 pinpoint lasers of different burn durations + ballistics in need of tracking.
Ok buddy, hope you get lots of mechs standing still beside those "key holes" = )
But i guess your results show there's not many of those.

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Bassault likes to run his mouth about how much "skill" this play style requires but the reality is that "skill" only needs to be maintained for the briefest of moments when you aim and fire.

I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but... most of this game is about aiming and firing. That's how you kill stuff and get wins, generally.
Some weapons take more aiming, some less. And then there's lock-ons = )

[ScrapIron Prime]

Two posts in the last two pages excoriating someone for daring to express an opinion when they're not T1.

My advice... statements like those really undercut the argument that said players are not elitist.