356 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

The Brewer, on 08 January 2024 - 11:50 PM, said:

Serious question - has anyone present arguing with the top comp players in here ever watched a competitive match or asked any questions in good faith?

Serious question - why is it repeatedly stated that the Cauldron is a diverse group of players of all skill levels with one breath, and then repeatedly admonished when a diverse group of players debate "top comp players"?

[The Brewer]

I don't think I've ever seen a well reasoned, thoroughly vetted point be rejected outright. Hyperbole and lack of experience don't go too far though.

[feeWAIVER]

The Brewer, on 09 January 2024 - 12:14 AM, said:

I don't think I've ever seen a well reasoned, thoroughly vetted point be rejected outright. Hyperbole and lack of experience don't go too far though.

When I'm in my locust on the other side of the map dealing with 3 assaults that want to kill me, and dodging that medium that's coming after me while the majority of my team is still waddling behind some wall somewhere, you know what would be nice to have? A little lurm support.

It would be nice if UAV's had 100, maybe 200 hp.. Maybe with a skill tree revamp. Something to think about.

But lurms aren't used in tier one, very rarely.. They are straight up unfun to play.
At best they are a goof ancillary weapon, because you can't rely on them.

People don't bring AMS, let alone AMS Mechs. Why don't we see Corsair 7A's, or Catapult Jesters, or Kitfox C's?
Because lurms suck.
My Locust 3M can carry 2 AMS, and I don't carry any on it.

[Samziel]

No confirmed stats yet and there is a full on meltdown about LRMs. I wish they'd just cause a full on lurmapocalypse for a month so people would shut up.

They could nerf radar derp by half and velocity by 5% but everyone is speaking like velocity is cut in half and deprivation by 1%. Useless to discuss until we know more.

And people are purposefully misinterpreting everything thats said and not even trying to understand it. At the same time people wonder why there is a separate Discord for balance discussions. Forums are just toxic for any productive conversation.

Edited by Samziel, 09 January 2024 - 01:33 AM.

[Shineplasma]

feeWAIVER, on 09 January 2024 - 12:26 AM, said:

When I'm in my locust on the other side of the map dealing with 3 assaults that want to kill me, and dodging that medium that's coming after me while the majority of my team is still waddling behind some wall somewhere, you know what would be nice to have? A little lurm support.

Maybe you should, uh,

feeWAIVER, on 08 January 2024 - 11:11 PM, said:

identify the threat and act according.

Its hilarious to see you go from complaining about "assaults sitting in the back being meta" one moment, then turn around 2 seconds later and be like: "man, I wish more people would play LRMs, that would be nice"

When does the cognitive dissonance kick in? Should be soon - you've given me whiplash lmao.

Edited by Shineplasma, 09 January 2024 - 01:24 AM.

[Curccu]

torsie, on 08 January 2024 - 03:06 AM, said:

I might be wrong in this, so ignore me if I dont understand how it works correctly.

Do you know, when you target someone and use that "enemy spotted" command wheel thingie, even when you saw them just for a tiiiiiny moment, as long as you enemy spotted-ed them you can see green square on the map and see them moving around?

Its really annoying, because even if you get that flashing light signal that enemies no longer aim at you, you can still be marked on the map, so while you think you are super sneaky everyone knows where you are going.
There should be something that makes you disappear from that map, or if you are no longer spotted that square on map disappears too.

Enemy spotted is pretty OP thing and still about 90% (Pure guess) players don't use it.
It is not that bad anymore it's just few seconds after nerf, it used to be closer to 10 seconds (to lazy to dig through patch notes for factual values.).

Besh, on 08 January 2024 - 03:42 AM, said:

You are misrepresenting what I wrote . I was not mentioning TT rules with a single word . I mentioned the roots of MW:O lying in BT. There is a difference . In context, to claim "'Mech Game" would not mean anything - as the poster I replied to did - is outright ridiculous .

At this point, I can only attribute the kind of reactive answers someone earns when mentioning BT roots of MW:O to some kind of tunnel vision .

Mech game can be anything with large robots piloted by someone, that is my definition of MECH.

Mech game examples: Mechwarrior 1-5, MWO, Mechwarrior tactics (lol), Battletech, Living Legends, Gundam, Armored Core, Hawken, Titanfall and a lot more.
Someone elses definition of 24 best mech games https://www.thegamer...h-gundam-games/
7 best indie mech games according to someone https://gamerant.com...die-mech-games/

So MECH GAME does not mean any kind of specific setting, game type, etc.
Should not me that hard to understand.

feeWAIVER, on 09 January 2024 - 12:26 AM, said:

When I'm in my locust on the other side of the map dealing with 3 assaults that want to kill me, and dodging that medium that's coming after me while the majority of my team is still waddling behind some wall somewhere, you know what would be nice to have? A little lurm support.

Out of range even on old classic maps. But you are increasing your sides win chances by keeping 4 enemy mechs busy alone.

feeWAIVER, on 09 January 2024 - 12:26 AM, said:

It would be nice if UAV's had 100, maybe 200 hp.. Maybe with a skill tree revamp. Something to think about.

Why not just make them indestructible at that point? I'm not going to waste that much time + heat and possible ammo to take down UAV.

Edited by Curccu, 09 January 2024 - 01:45 AM.

[Samziel]

feeWAIVER, on 08 January 2024 - 11:57 PM, said:

Serious question - why is it repeatedly stated that the Cauldron is a diverse group of players of all skill levels with one breath, and then repeatedly admonished when a diverse group of players debate "top comp players"?

I dont think anyone ever advertised it as diverse group of all skill levels. edit sorry theres just too much text to follow in this thread. Followings till applies. Game balance is done by higher tiers QP. Makes sense to have the best players coordinating that. Cauldron players do play all kinds of playstyles which what diverse means here.

And it's balanced for higher tiers for a reason. If lack of skill is a reason why something is bad or OP, then learn. Game is not that hard if you just follow some guides and advices. But some players tend to put their head in the sand and think game or balancing team is at fault of their own shortcomings.

Edited by Samziel, 09 January 2024 - 03:15 AM.

[Besh]

Samziel, on 09 January 2024 - 01:04 AM, said:

~snip

And people are purposefully misinterpreting everything thats said and not even trying to understand it. At the same time people wonder why there is a separate Discord for balance discussions. Forums are just toxic for any productive conversation.

I dont think this is a fair assesment of the dialogue/discussion so far . For the most part, the contributions in this Thread have been rather friendly and civil . Valid arguments and points have been brought up, to simply cluster all posts here under "toxic" and "nonproductive" is overly negatively selective .

[Samziel]

Besh, on 09 January 2024 - 01:47 AM, said:

I dont think this is a fair assesment of the dialogue/discussion so far . For the most part, the contributions in this Thread have been rather friendly and civil . Valid arguments and points have been brought up, to simply cluster all posts here under "toxic" and "nonproductive" is overly negatively selective .

I don't really have a side on the LRM discussion (dont use em, dont mind em) so I am not trying to do that. .

There is a lot of comments just dismissing others based on ridiculous reasons. "Is he trying to be dumb on purpose?" "Cauldron just hate LRMs" etc which have no base on reality. As well as hyperboles like "At this point you basically have removed LRMs from the game". These kinds of replies dont serve the discussion but aggravates it.

Theres most likely some examples of the other side of the argument too but JFC this thread is long. And it can happen to genuine discussers simply because the format is what it is.

Being live on a chat is much more akin to a real conversation than always just responding to a long forum post trying to counter everything that has been said.

Edited by Samziel, 09 January 2024 - 03:25 AM.

[Reno Blade]

LRM:

For LRMs, i think there are 2 major concerns:

• for the LRM user, the lock-on and keep looking mechanic is drastically impacted by Radar Deprevation and even more so ECM.

• for the reciving end of LRM volleys, the sheer amount of missiles that can hit you is the breaking point. once you have a lot of missiles, there is only running to the nearest cover.

I would suggest to change the following:

• ECM no longer prevents targeting, but keeps the longer duration of lock-on.
  
• LRM (and ATM) keep their lock after launch, so no more staring, which makes it great indirect weapon
  
• LRM spread increase exponentially with larger volley size
  
• LRM could then still be tuned with some cooldown/heat/heatscale, if needed

Other missile weapons:

While we are looking at it, there might be potential to "spread out" a few more "boats",
It might not be obvious, but boating MRM and SRM can be quite similar to boating LRMs and one option could be to increaste their spread as well, if fired in a large volley.




HAG:


My preference for HAGs is to actually make the fire duration longer, or increase bullets.
e.g. firing 10/15/20 bullets with 2 dmg each ?

i'm someone that actually would like to spread out most of the weapons damage over longer durations, to reduce burst potential overall.
longer fights, slower kills, more attrition...

[w0qj]

MWO staff quoted as saying that HAG bullets (HAG40 = 8x pellets of 5 damage each) is the maximum number of pellets due to server load (server has to calculate the gravity effect on each pellet apparently).

Look for (drumroll...) Frost_Byte's comment near the end of this page:
https://mwomercs.com...on/page__st__80
https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes

Reno Blade, on 09 January 2024 - 02:54 AM, said:

...HAG:

My preference for HAGs is to actually make the fire duration longer, or increase bullets.
e.g. firing 10/15/20 bullets with 2 dmg each ?

i'm someone that actually would like to spread out most of the weapons damage over longer durations, to reduce burst potential overall.
longer fights, slower kills, more attrition...

[ScrapIron Prime]

Okay, eventful couple of pages. Can we please NOT attack or impune Cauldron members? Because that's not productive. We all know they're a "diverse group of competitive players" which kinda means they're not diverse, but they definitely know how to play the game and they're the resource we have. What we need to do is to make the case to them for non-competitive play styles and options.

Case in point... and the hill I am apparently dying on... LRMs. The Cauldron players are trying to balance indirect fire coming from a lance of 1-3 mechs of 80+ tubes each with dedicated NARC spotters. While that is the best way to rack up damage with the weapon system, it is not the only way to play it, and nerfing that method could potentially render all other use cases to be beyond meaningless, especially for solo dropping players and non-maximized builds. We need to advocate for useful direct fire and to perhaps address NARCs instead.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Besh]

Samziel, on 09 January 2024 - 02:11 AM, said:

I don't really have a side on the LRM discussion (dont use em, dont mind em) so I am not trying to do that. .

There is a lot of comments just dismissing others based on ridiculous reasons. "Is he trying to be dumb on purpose?" "Cauldron just hate LRMs" etc which have no base on reality. As well as hyperboles like "At this point you basically have removed LRMs from the game". These kinds of replies dont serve the discussion but aggravates it.

Theres most likely some examples of the other side of the argument too but JFC this thread is long. And it can happen to genuine discussers simply because the format is what it is.

Being live on a chat is much more akin to a real conversation than always just responding to a long forum post trying to counter everything that has been said.

No doubt, on the last few pages quite some posts as you describe above occured . But there are also pages and pages of onTopic posts which are factual and constructive .

One of the strongpoint differences of Forums vs Discord is exactly the being able to read up on an entire discussion . On discord, it not rarely is "you are either there when it happens, or you may not even know it has been talked about/discussed" .

Generally, the tendency to create extreme positions which can not be reconciled by dialogue is non constructive . This includes posts like "Cauldron bad" just as well as "bad players know nothing and just complain" .

I would assume most people actively participating on the Forums are somewhat passionate about the Game . The perceived skilllevel has not much bearing on that, just as well as someone being preceived as "bad" can have valid opinions and insights .

Edited by Besh, 09 January 2024 - 06:41 AM.

[Curccu]

Besh, on 09 January 2024 - 06:19 AM, said:

One of the strongpoint differences of Forums vs Discord is exactly the being able to read up on an entire discussion . On discord, it not rarely is "you are either there when it happens, or you may not even know it has been talked about/discussed" .

Huh? I can scroll back Cauldrons #lockon-weapons-discussion channel back to November in few seconds (and even more but didn't bother) and more read everything that is written since.

Biggest difference is that I can chat with people real time easily not needing to spam F5 in here forums and guessing if someone is writing something there... Right now that channel says: Dyex and Gallows are typing...

Edited by Curccu, 09 January 2024 - 06:59 AM.

[Besh]

Curccu, on 09 January 2024 - 06:58 AM, said:

Huh? I can scroll back Cauldrons #lockon-weapons-discussion channel back to November in few seconds (and even more but didn't bother) and more read everything that is written since.

But if you are not aware of a certain topic having been discussed, you may not even have an inclination of what to to search for . Not everyone wants to spend the time scrolling and reading back messages since November to find (for example) a 2 sentence statement by someone and subsequent 5 mins discussion about it .

Edited by Besh, 09 January 2024 - 07:07 AM.

[Curccu]

Besh, on 09 January 2024 - 07:01 AM, said:

But if you are not aware of a certain topic having been discussed, you may not even have an inclination of what to to search for . Not everyone wants to spend the time scrolling and reading back messages since November to find (for example) a 2 sentence statement by someone and subsequent 5 mins discussion about it .

In this case pretty damn simple there is own dedicated channel for lock on weapons, you can probably guess that lock on weapons balance is discussed there.

How does that differ from forums? you have to scroll back to see old messages if you want to read them here also.
This thread we are writing right now is "Jan 2024 Patch Leaks And Rumors" You cannot see from topic name that this is mostly LRM balance discussion, without reading.

[Besh]

Curccu, on 09 January 2024 - 07:13 AM, said:

In this case pretty damn simple there is own dedicated channel for lock on weapons, you can probably guess that lock on weapons balance is discussed there.

How does that differ from forums? you have to scroll back to see old messages if you want to read them here also.
This thread we are writing right now is "Jan 2024 Patch Leaks And Rumors" You cannot see from topic name that this is mostly LRM balance discussion, without reading.

Tbh, I am not in favour of continuing this . Your points are valid, mine are also . Mainly, I do not want to contribute further to another string of "Discord good, Forums bad" posts . I dont see how this is at all necessary to be discussed tbh .

I personally am using both . I understand people who like discord, and I understand people who like Forums . I do not understand why there need to be unreconcileable positions, simply 'cos "Why not use both"? I know there are answers to this, but I don't agree with them .

*shrug*

[Shineplasma]

ScrapIron Prime, on 09 January 2024 - 06:02 AM, said:

Okay, eventful couple of pages. Can we please NOT attack or impune Cauldron members? Because that's not productive. We all know they're a "diverse group of competitive players" which kinda means they're not diverse, but they definitely know how to play the game and they're the resource we have. What we need to do is to make the case to them for non-competitive play styles and options.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Just an FYI: Competitive players ARE a diverse group.

There are comp divisions for players of all skill and commitment levels. Yes, from T5 to the tippity top. Folks on the forums here just don't know or interact with them for the most part. There are over 1200 members on the MWOComp discord. They can't all be toxic top tier elitists. That's not how it works.

In addition, the Cauldron isn't solely made up of competitive players. There are a number of members who solely play QP.

While there is significant overlap between people passionate and experienced enough to become a cauldron member and higher level MWOComp players, the members of the Cauldron explicitly do not (primarily) balance the game with Comp in mind.

In fact, in the opinion of quite a number of them, changes made to benefit QP and the wider player base over the last year or two have in their opinion degraded the comp experience to the point where they are either taking a break from comp or (in DATA's case specifically) they have quit MWO altogether.

Forum-posters here, (especially in this thread) have all these wild conspiracy theories about the Cauldron, who they are and what their goals are, without ever taking the time to interact with them directly or even read the feedback discord. Its a very skewed, uninformed and narrow perception of reality.

Edited by Shineplasma, 09 January 2024 - 10:59 AM.

[Besh]

Shineplasma, on 09 January 2024 - 10:49 AM, said:

~

Forum-posters here, (especially in this thread) have all these wild conspiracy theories about the Cauldron, who they are and what their goals are, without ever taking the time to interact with them directly or even read the feedback discord. Its a very skewed, uninformed and narrow perception of reality.

People are trying their best to keep this thread calm, factual and informative . Over emphasizing the few commenters posting wildly "against Cauldron" opinions is something I dont understand . Id assume most people actively particiapting here know it happens, imho it does not need to get pointed out constantly. We can all read .

Why focus on those comments ? There is a lot of rather factual onTopic going on in here . Is it beneficial for the Game to reinforce the perceived "division" between players ,compplayers and Cauldron on every given occasion, even if you dont agree with it ?

Edited by Besh, 09 January 2024 - 11:04 AM.

[Shineplasma]

Besh, on 09 January 2024 - 10:58 AM, said:

People are trying their best to keep this thread calm, factual and informative . Over emphasizing the few commenters posting wildly "against Cauldron" opinions is something I dont understand . We all know it happens, imho it does not need to get pointed out constantly .

Why focus on those comments ? There is a lot of rather factual onTopic going on in here .

Because it is a recurring theme which is often intertwined in people's ill-informed talking points that I've read here. I read a lot more forum threads than I actually respond to. Many of the same people in this thread who are "factual onTopic" as you put it, are guilty of spreading speculation or regularly slandering the Cauldron in an entirely unproductive manner numerous times before.

In addition, I was directly responding to a comment speculating as to the Cauldron's balance philosophy/motivations.

Hope that helps.

Edited by Shineplasma, 09 January 2024 - 11:07 AM.