272 replies to this topic

[Waponiwoo]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 August 2024 - 01:44 PM, said:

The meta wouldn't change in either 8v8 or 12v12 if you did that, if you think it would the only one deluding themselves is you for thinking those were ever good in the first place. Let me put it this way, if those were actually useful, don't you think you would see it used in more competitive environments?

half the fun of this game is in non meta builds. i am adding another vote for 8v8 is meh, because its boring. im generally doing better with 8v8. still, it feels like even more pressure to run your best builds, and more pressure to not take chances. i want to see commandos, crabs, kintaros, and with strange setups. if im in a great build and have to cover a bit for that, great, all day. if you only run meta and cover for my ppc crab, thx and cg on getting a bit higher numbers that round. i also want to see a 2 man just get sick of dug in positions lasting too long and go for something dangerous to mix it up. 12v12 is a bit more forgiving if you lose two on a whim.
also, it does feel like the group drops have an even higher advantage in 8v8, and the wipes are worse.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

patrat124, on 18 August 2024 - 02:03 PM, said:

yeah but we're not playing competitive. we're playing quick play/casual.

That's irrelevant, the argument is whether "support" is good in either mode. AMS Piranhas/Locusts/Kit Foxes for example are typically worthless mechs. Why? They are highly situational on whether they are useful or not (depends on the enemy bringing LRMs/ATMs) and sacrifice quite a bit to mount it where just having killing power would be better. All 8v8 does is expose the glaring weaknesses of those "support" builds better than 12v12 where it is obfuscated by having more teammates to carry you.

It's no different than the assault that waddles into the enemy and dies for no reason yet you win despite that, for some reason they think that you won partially because they took the aggro like that, but realistically you could've won more easily if they hadn't just thrown their mech away.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 18 August 2024 - 02:31 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i am pretty sure that the dislike of the top 1% and comp players comes from personal experience (at least it does on my end). being someone who actually enjoys LRM (and now TBM) i get a LOT of hate and derogatory comments from so called "elite" players (this was back when population was much higher ad it was in FP but my point stands). they often also think that their play style and their vision of the game is what we should all go for with no consideration for the casual, plays just for fun majority. also with the MM in its current state and the population low yes T1s do end up in T5 matches especially when they are gaming the group system (all a T1 needs to do is be in a group with just one T5 (easily done if they have a friend willing to create a smerf or two) to pull them down low enough to end up in T5 matches).

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 18 August 2024 - 02:40 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

VeeOt Dragon, on 18 August 2024 - 02:40 PM, said:

i am pretty sure that the dislike of the top 1% and comp players comes from personal experience (at least it does on my end). being someone who actually enjoys LRM (and now TBM) i get a LOT of hate and derogatory comments from so called "elite" players (this was back when population was much higher ad it was in FP but my point stands).

To be clear, I think a lot of puggies don't even know who the better players are. Even back in the poptart era there were a lot that copied the "meta" and thought they were way better than they were because their use of "meta" against "non-meta" inflated their scores. Same is true with FP (which a lot of competitive players hated after the newness wore off). They acted the part but were not in fact that great, they were typically just more coordinated than the average PUG group. This is who most PUGs use as scapegoats when they talk about "good" players (there are a number of good players who barely if at all play QP so keep that in mind as well).

So I would hesitate more before throwing out the "elite" term, especially if you don't even know who plays in those circles. It's also worth noting the differences in skill on both ends of the skill curve become more extreme the further out you go. It's also worth mentioning that they aren't a monolith and quite often don't agree on a number of things.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 18 August 2024 - 02:58 PM.

[1453 R]

VeeOt Dragon, on 18 August 2024 - 02:40 PM, said:

i am pretty sure that the dislike of the top 1% and comp players comes from personal experience (at least it does on my end). being someone who actually enjoys LRM (and now TBM) i get a LOT of hate and derogatory comments from so called "elite" players (this was back when population was much higher ad it was in FP but my point stands). they often also think that their play style and their vision of the game is what we should all go for with no consideration for the casual, plays just for fun majority. also with the MM in its current state and the population low yes T1s do end up in T5 matches especially when they are gaming the group system (all a T1 needs to do is be in a group with just one T5 (easily done if they have a friend willing to create a smerf or two) to pull them down low enough to end up in T5 matches).

As Quicksilver stated, the "elite" players you are speaking of tend pretty strongly to be second-stringers who get their cheap jollies on browbeating pilots a half-step below them and aping the idea of 'Gud'. Actual competitive players don't really care about the crappy "bragging rights" - to them there's no bragging rights to be had in whuppin' on a bunch of casuals anyways. Actual elite players are far more likely to be focused on improving themselves and experiencing the game at its uppermost levels than flexing on less dedicated players.

I've been one of those 'Elite Players', if in tabletop game/TCG circles rather than Vidya Gaems. One of the people on top of a local meta, in a 'local meta' that was head and shoulders above everywhere else within reasonable driving distance. Regionals-level players would come to our location to snipe tournaments for expensive prizes to hawk on eBay only to walk away shocked and disappointed after we sent them packing. My scenario was run as a nationwide tournament event (note: not a 'Nationals' tournament, but a tournament scenario run in game stores across the nation), though amusingly enough I lost that tournament. Heh.

Point being, I am not unfamiliar with 'Elite' status, and lemme tell ye? Any 'Elite' player worth the title loves to help newer, less skilled players get the hang of the game. They want to share their love of the game, their dedication, and so they try and raise other players up to the same level. Or at least to a level where that new player can see the magic and enjoy it as best they can, whether that's at top-level competitive tiers or not.

Are there some deeply skilled and talented jackwads who get their jollies by flexing on people? Yes - but other elite players tend to shun those guys. They are Poor Sports, and nobody likes a poor sport. Any elite player worthy of the title would get extremely mad at someone being a jackass to newbies or casuals because that person is driving off the people from whom occasionally emerge a new, more dedicated friend they can play with.

[Bud Crue]

Just an observation on 8v8 over the last few days:

It's too easy for a mediocre 3-4 man to overwhelm the opposition. We are not very good, but we have been winning far more than normal even as just a 3 man when we use our tonnage. I really think that in the future limiting groups to 3 will not be enough. I think there has to be additional weight limitations. Just my 2 cents.

[Sulla]

Personally haven't enjoyed this on my long weekend off. If it's very useful/necessary as a test, hey, I'm for whatever keeps this game robust.

Lots of multiplayer games benefit from low team sizes and most players going back a while have experienced how low team size matches can be fun.

In MWO in 2024 I think the maps, the balance, and player behavior as it's stratified across the playerbase are a complicated system that more or less functions for 12v12 QP. Assuming the entire basic game mode can be shunted over to 8v8 without an involved and uncertain dialing-in process (which also, by implication, involves the QP playerbase buying in and learning new behavior while this tuning process occurs) seems really optimistic to me.

I think if the long term health of the game strongly militated towards 8v8 it could be doable (and we might, if it all succeeded, come to agree that 8v8 is elegant, the better skills showcase, etc.) But it's asking a lot, of that skill-stratified (and group status stratified) playerbase, who are going to experience the ensuing chaos differently.

EDIT: Removed ttk theorycrafting, what do I know?

Edited by Sulla, 18 August 2024 - 05:14 PM.

[Senior Knight Steele]

8v8 is the superior mode. Glad to have it back if only for a short time! So fun! First match out went right down to the wire, with one mech winning a 1v2 to secure the victory.

There is nothing like that in the game anymore, it's quite sad. Having a blast with it just like the old days.

[VeeOt Dragon]

the only positive thing i can say for the 8v8 is that it would nice to have as an alternate option. keep 12v12 qp and add 8v8 as another mode (i would also say to divide it into two and 8v8 with and without groups). sadly the player base is to small to be dividing up the buckets. if they end up going with 8v8 for the future for qp i would still recommend dividing it into groups and no groups. (hell thats the way 12v12 used to be before soup que, groups had their own mode to play in.)

then again we do have Event Que that is WAY underused already.


(side note- there may indeed be good comp/top tier players out there who aren't jackwads but i rarely encountered any of them. again i do love my LRM something that the top tier and comp players (and those of the cauldron) seem to want to have removed from the game entirely)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 18 August 2024 - 05:34 PM.

[DoucheNugg3t]

last night was more fun. the enemy lance+ camping with tents and coleman stoves on the wall in HPG was pretty funny, CQ has been the most fun so far, back with old 8v8 we had a button so we could choose between assault and CQ, why was that not included this time around ??

Edited by DoucheNugg3t, 18 August 2024 - 06:24 PM.

[kracked49]

Great event!

[Void Angel]

NoZaku4U, on 16 August 2024 - 11:54 AM, said:

Hard pass.
MM is so broken and games so unbalanced as it is 12v12, when each mech lost is 8.3% of the team. Now each mech lost is 12.5%. Snowball routs will just increase.

I wasn't able to play this event, unfortunately, but you're forgetting that 50% more 'mechs means 50% more firepower available to cover angles and control the field. Yeah, each 'mech lost is a larger proportion of the team, but they're also going to die slower. Conversely, big slow brawlers just got a lot easier to use for that same reason - they're still just as tough, but there's less firepower that can be brought to bear against them as they maneuver to close.

I'll bet you a no-prize based on the first page of responses that this dynamic is throwing a lot of players for a loop, at least early on in the event when this comment was posted.

It also bears mentioning that the dynamic of defensive and offensive abilities in the game (weapons and quirks together) are tuned for 12v12. This means that people who haven't thought about what that means will be using the wrong tactics, and under- and over-estimating threats - which will be frustrating until and if they figure out what's happening.

Edited by Void Angel, 18 August 2024 - 07:51 PM.

[SolCrusher]

8v8 isn't bad at all. I'm enjoying it. Just blasted my way to 6 kills with 2 solo and 838 dmg in one match. Should have grabbed the team stats but just grabbed my player stats. Christmas bells were ring jing jingling

[smokefield]

Void Angel, on 18 August 2024 - 07:50 PM, said:

It also bears mentioning that the dynamic of defensive and offensive abilities in the game (weapons and quirks together) are tuned for 12v12. This means that people who haven't thought about what that means will be using the wrong tactics, and under- and over-estimating threats - which will be frustrating until and if they figure out what's happening.

true, i had to switch to different tactics and different builds to be viable again. dusted back some of the old builds and mechs. took me a good number of games and different mechs to find a good vibe and actually feel usefull, heh.

[Ilostmycactus]

The event is an absolutely awful experience and I have zero desire to do it ever again.

[patrat124]

smokefield, on 18 August 2024 - 02:20 PM, said:

well, dont do stupid **** and the number of players yelling should decrease

Yo! Rather than saying a witty one liner than exiting the conversation have a friendly debate with me! I'm not doing any more stupid stuff than before 8v8 but I never received this much toxicity for it before even when people pointed out my stupidity in 12v12 they laughed with me when it worked out. But in 8v8 I get way more toxicity thrown towards me even when I'm not doing stupid things. In my mind it's clear that 8v8 has made the quick play environment far more toxic all around. Which is especially clear reading some of those posts on this thread lol. I'm not going to deny that I do stupid stuff in the game but at least in 12v12 everyone is willing to join in and have some fun.

[patrat124]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 18 August 2024 - 02:27 PM, said:

That's irrelevant, the argument is whether "support" is good in either mode. AMS Piranhas/Locusts/Kit Foxes for example are typically worthless mechs. Why? They are highly situational on whether they are useful or not (depends on the enemy bringing LRMs/ATMs) and sacrifice quite a bit to mount it where just having killing power would be better. All 8v8 does is expose the glaring weaknesses of those "support" builds better than 12v12 where it is obfuscated by having more teammates to carry you.

It's no different than the assault that waddles into the enemy and dies for no reason yet you win despite that, for some reason they think that you won partially because they took the aggro like that, but realistically you could've won more easily if they hadn't just thrown their mech away.

I'm not awake enough to form a proper response to this but I think in general I agree with you for the most part. Either way it's not going to remove from my enjoyment of the support builds I do use because even if their "support" functionality isn't particularly useful every match they go into I've still found ways to be effective with them. With the locust especially. Four small lasers are not to be trifled with when they can be aimed well.

Either way with everyone I've responded to in this thread I hope I'm not coming off as aggressive. I'm enjoying the friendly debates going on and I feel there's a lot of legitimate feedback from both sides that I hope pgi picks up on

[patrat124]

This is finally going to be my last unprompted post on this thread lol. I'm only gonna post if people are replying to me directly.

We all care about the game, we all want the game to suit what's the most fun for us but pgi can't make everyone happy especially with the relatively small player base and incredible diversity of play styles that currently exist within the game. If 8v8 is going to be the norm in the future I'm just going to have to adjust to be able to play it properly if I want to continue playing. I'm sure I'll be able to find some fun in a new play style or find a way to make my current favorite light mech builds still be viable within the tighter limitations of a smaller match size. I just hope that 12v12 continues to be an option (which it will be once the 21st rolls around but I'm talking about far in the future if the game isn't shut down yet)

[Rits]

Terrible game mode, dropping with 4-6 assaults make this impossible to play at all for anything lighter. No room for you to play just a 100 ton mech brawl. Additionally I think having two game modes, 8v8 and 12v12, would be a bad move you'd cause a split in the community potentially locking everyone into the 8v8 mode if people don't want to wait for potentially 5-10min queues.

Edited by Rits, 19 August 2024 - 02:32 AM.

[Stitchedup]

Rits, on 19 August 2024 - 02:27 AM, said:

Terrible game mode, dropping with 4-6 assaults make this impossible to play at all for anything lighter. No room for you to play just a 100 ton mech brawl. Additionally I think having two game modes, 8v8 and 12v12, would be a bad move you'd cause a split in the community potentially locking everyone into the 8v8 mode if people don't want to wait for potentially 5-10min queues.

i agree we this, it also makes murderballs much more dangerous or fun depending on what side you are on as the an assault tanking is much more effective in the 8 v 8