176 replies to this topic

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 01:38 AM, said:

What I mean, is that we use nice zero-sum PSR, but it's used for what? To split whole playerbase into 5 Tiers, while ±2 can be matched together, so only use for this system - is to prevent Tier 4 from playing against Tier 1 (of course if release valves aren't open)? It's exact consequence of "experience = skill" design. Cuz if skill would mean anything - we would have "Find players with closest rating" system instead.

You keep repeating that claim of yours "experience = skill", but it is not going to turn into the truth:
1. You have 10 years of experience, but that does not mean that you have some magnificent skill.

2. There is a new player named torsie who had a little experience when he joined MWO, but moved quickly to Tier 1 (and stayed there) - and with a minimal amount of MWO experience.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 01:38 AM, said:

My 10 years of experience mean nothing.

I am almost tempted to agree.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 01:38 AM, said:

Because I will never play Meta. Never. Meta is boring. Meta removes choices. And any game is about choices. Otherwise it isn't game. Meta forces me to play certain way, that isn't fun for me.

You are wrong. You can be successful in MechWarrior Online without running so-called meta 'Mechs.

Check this screenshot from the last weekend. I deployed in my favorite Centurion. I had the highest number of kills and achieved the highest Match Score:

Even when my 'Mech's armour failed in the end, we won the game.

This vintage Centurion is anything but meta.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 01:38 AM, said:

Because I will never play Meta. Never. Meta is boring. Meta removes choices. And any game is about choices. Otherwise it isn't game. Meta forces me to play certain way, that isn't fun for me.

As you can see:

• You do not have to use meta 'Mechs
  
• You do not even have to use Assault-class 'Mechs
  
• You do not even have to use ClanTech

You can be successful in the game, even if you are piloting a non-meta medium-weight IS BattleMech - and all that on a new map (Luthien, in this case).

Edited by martian, 19 December 2024 - 06:57 AM.

[Void Angel]

martian, on 19 December 2024 - 06:50 AM, said:

You keep repeating that claim of yours "experience = skill", but it is not going to turn into the truth:

That's not the erroneous claim he's advancing - he's saying that the matchmaker equates experience with skill, which allegedly makes it do all the things it actually doesn't do to persecute him. This simply isn't true; it's a begged question to support his thesis that Something Is Wrong, and that "The Matchmaker Is Mean To Me." In reality, the matchmaker begins with a skill rating, compares skilled performances in the match, adjusts the skill rating for relative performance, then repeats.

This isn't equating skill and "experience" at all - as was pointed out to him. It won't make a difference; he's going to keep on arguing for his myth until he gets tired, no matter how many points he loses. But it's still important to push back so as not to let the nonsense be mistaken for a meaningful critique of the game.

[MrMadguy]

Void Angel, on 19 December 2024 - 07:48 AM, said:

That's not the erroneous claim he's advancing - he's saying that the matchmaker equates experience with skill, which allegedly makes it do all the things it actually doesn't do to persecute him. This simply isn't true; it's a begged question to support his thesis that Something Is Wrong, and that "The Matchmaker Is Mean To Me." In reality, the matchmaker begins with a skill rating, compares skilled performances in the match, adjusts the skill rating for relative performance, then repeats.

This isn't equating skill and "experience" at all - as was pointed out to him. It won't make a difference; he's going to keep on arguing for his myth until he gets tired, no matter how many points he loses. But it's still important to push back so as not to let the nonsense be mistaken for a meaningful critique of the game.

Again. Please read carefully, cuz you don't understand, what I try to explain. What I try to explain - is that it doesn't matter how good PSR algorithm is, if PSR value itself isn't used. It's used only to separate Tier 4 noobs from experienced players in Tier 1.

[RockmachinE]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 08:51 AM, said:

Again. Please read carefully, cuz you don't understand, what I try to explain. What I try to explain - is that it doesn't matter how good PSR algorithm is, if PSR value itself isn't used. It's used only to separate Tier 4 noobs from experienced players in Tier 1.

It will though, only if there's not enough players it won't. At peak time a T1 game is comprised of mostly T1 players.

[GargoyleVine]

martian, on 19 December 2024 - 06:50 AM, said:

You keep repeating that claim of yours "experience = skill", but it is not going to turn into the truth:
1. You have 10 years of experience, but that does not mean that you have some magnificent skill.

2. There is a new player named torsie who had a little experience when he joined MWO, but moved quickly to Tier 1 (and stayed there) - and with a minimal amount of MWO experience.

I am almost tempted to agree.

You are wrong. You can be successful in MechWarrior Online without running so-called meta 'Mechs.

Check this screenshot from the last weekend. I deployed in my favorite Centurion. I had the highest number of kills and achieved the highest Match Score:

Even when my 'Mech's armour failed in the end, we won the game.

This vintage Centurion is anything but meta.


As you can see:

• You do not have to use meta 'Mechs
  
• You do not even have to use Assault-class 'Mechs
  
• You do not even have to use ClanTech

You can be successful in the game, even if you are piloting a non-meta medium-weight IS BattleMech - and all that on a new map (Luthien, in this case).

I need to dust off my "vintage" Centurian and re-build it !!

[Void Angel]

"Again," your claims are untrue, ans is the thesis in your signature: "While MM can provide good match to compensate bad one, what it can't provide - is moral compensation for humiliation." You're not being humiliated by the matchmaker; but you are simply ignoring how the matchmaker works - and embarrassing yourself in the process.

This is how conspiracy theories work: bias confirmation becomes a mania. You've long ago decided that you're right about this, despite the mountain of evidence that you are wrong. This happens because all information on the subject is filtered through your confirmation bias. You're supporting your dual nonsense claims (that I'm not "reading carefully" enough to understand your logic, and that PSR isn't being used by the matchmaker that uses PSR) with an empirically false assumption.

You apparently have gotten this assumption by reading through how the matchmaker works, and either misunderstanding it - because you didn't read carefully - or filtering it through a pre-existing bias. In any case, you took "the matchmaker can match people up to one tier up or down from their actual skill tier" and overgeneralized it to "matches are made using three tiers," which then becomes "the matchmaker just separates Tier4 from Tier1." Leaving aside the obvious fact that the matchmaker would still be using PSR to do this if it were actually the case, your opinion is baldly incorrect, given how the matchmaker works. You've taken "this can happen" and gotten "this is happening all the time" by mixing those filtered facts with your own subjective experiences - experiences that are in turn heavily subject to bias confirmation, in a vicious cycle. That's not how evidence works, and that's not how the matchmaker does things.

What actually happens is that once a match starts building in the matchmaker, it will try to find players of whatever Tier it's looking for; if and only if it cannot find a match within a certain timeframe, it will expand its search to include adjacent tiers. Usually, you're going to see people in your own Tier. Only if the population is too low to support timely matches in your Tier will you be matched outside of it - you can't take a possible outcome and pretend that it's the normal outcome. People will challenge you on that.

The mean, supposedly higher-tier players who are farming you are not the problem. It's your own refusal to use good builds, and very likely the stubborn refusal to stop using builds that don't work, which is not quite the same thing. You decry the meta, discounting the most effective builds, and saying that choosing a good build "takes away choice." Frankly, Nick Naylor does it better, but it's still rank sophistry in any case. But that, and the mentality that goes with it, are the reason for your bad matches - and as long as you deliberately play sub-optimal builds with a sub-par attitude, you're going to keep getting the red arrow you've earned.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 December 2024 - 09:56 AM.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 08:51 AM, said:

Void Angel, on 19 December 2024 - 07:48 AM, said:

That's not the erroneous claim he's advancing - he's saying that the matchmaker equates experience with skill, which allegedly makes it do all the things it actually doesn't do to persecute him. This simply isn't true; it's a begged question to support his thesis that Something Is Wrong, and that "The Matchmaker Is Mean To Me." In reality, the matchmaker begins with a skill rating, compares skilled performances in the match, adjusts the skill rating for relative performance, then repeats.

This isn't equating skill and "experience" at all - as was pointed out to him. It won't make a difference; he's going to keep on arguing for his myth until he gets tired, no matter how many points he loses. But it's still important to push back so as not to let the nonsense be mistaken for a meaningful critique of the game.

Again. Please read carefully, cuz you don't understand, what I try to explain. What I try to explain - is that it doesn't matter how good PSR algorithm is, if PSR value itself isn't used. It's used only to separate Tier 4 noobs from experienced players in Tier 1.

I do not understand his visions. All right.

But you do not understand him too.

[foamyesque]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 05:25 AM, said:

59th match was first match, that was clean victory for my team. But my W/L is still 0.32, that is completely wrong and means some sort of matchmaking bias.

If your W/L is 0.32 (per Jarls its actually like, 0.95), you ain't the one being expected to carry, you're the one everyone else is trying to carry. Stop complaining about other people shooting into walls and pay attention to what you are doing.

I'm not great at this game; I spent a year, year and a half in T5 and T4. These days I run at the bottom of T2/top of T3 depending on how my luck runs and the relative strength of whatever mechs I'm driving. But I've maintained a roughly 1.0 W/L ratio ever since I started.

Edited by foamyesque, 19 December 2024 - 12:57 PM.

[Dark Fenrir the Fluffy]

What do you think happens when 4 tier 1 players drop in an assault lance with triple snubs and dual ac20s each sit like trolls in a cave or around a corner to insta kill ANYTHING that comes around the corner so they can giggle about their new way to exploit the game regardless of the fact that they can do exceedingly well without such tactics? along comes a tier 5 - 3 guy who doesn't even know whats happened or how to avoid it. The people who are in tier 1 should remember that such exploitation might satisfy some evil streak they have going on but it chops away at the player base and gives them fewer and fewer fodder to do that too. Yes its part of the game and within the rules, but have a longer learning curve and a 1-10 tier system that actually only puts you against YOUR tier and its likely not to happen as much. I'm sure people will say "there's not a big enough player base for that", but that's the same mentality as a mech hiding in stead of shooting all game,...the odds only get worse. This game is heading towards a breaking point where the only people still playing are a few upper tier lifers who will have less and less fun as they wait for matches longer and longer, only to find they are fighting people of their skill level or better. Eventually it will be one dude with a single ER ppc shadow who never ends up finding a game.

Edited by Dark Fenrir the Fluffy, 19 December 2024 - 03:31 PM.

[Bassault]

pbiggz, on 18 December 2024 - 06:03 PM, said:

Hello friends, it seems like we need our semi-annual reminder, especially OP, that the matchmaker exists to pair you up against appropriately skilled players so that you neither win, nor lose constantly. Its a nearly impossible goal, and all things considered, MWO is doing it remarkably well.

This thread essentially exists for two reasons;

first, MWO exposes your tier/PSR rating to players. This means players like OP, consciously or, most often unconsciously, view the arrow and your tier rating as a reward. PSR exists solely for matchmaking purposes and I have always maintained that you should not be able to see it. The up or down arrow you get at the end of the match is always good for you. It means the system is making changes to improve the quality of your next match based on the people available in the queue for you to match against. If you're frequently getting your *** handed to you, you want the arrow to go down, but since people have egos and there is a direct link between personal performance and the direction of that arrow, its visibility means any time it goes down when a player wasn't expecting it to, it feels like punishment. Its even coloured red to look like punishment. Its all a little backwards.

The second reason is that players like OP, who may have cut their teeth on the older PVE mechwarrior games, have always implicitly expected MWO to be an experience like that; in a PVE game its ok to win forever; in fact, that's exactly what you want to do. But in a PVP game, you can't win forever. Sometimes you have to lose. Other people get a turn to win too. That's a bridge too far for OP, whose words frequently suggest that he expects his wins to come no matter what he personally does, and that any time he loses, its the actions of malicious third parties (devs, competitive players, cheaters, etc, whoever happens to be an available villain at the time) that make him lose.

The TLDR of this is OP might say he doesn't care about wins and losses but he does, and he expects to have his wins no matter what he does, and any other details or externalities are not really anything he's going to take seriously. We've seen these threads before from many people and they all boil down to the same thing.

This is such a great post, explains the situation perfectly, I wish I could like it twice.

martian, on 18 December 2024 - 09:36 PM, said:

Your explanation is correct.

However, there is a small problem: MrMadguy is not asking for advice, explanation or anything else. What you are reading is his regular whinning thread. When offered in his previous whinning threads, he refused or ignored any advice. He said that he does not need any.

He is also not some new player - he said that he has been playing MWO since Beta.

To put it simply, he wants to keep running his assault 'Mechs and/or using his tactics. But if we consider that PSR is keep moving him lower and lower, then obviously his current builds and gameplay are bad even for Tier 4.

I would not be surprised if he ends up in Tier 5 eventually. We will see if he is capable of learning before he ends up in Tier 5.

Then he needs to adapt to the situation. Change behavior or find some other way to spend your time.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 12:34 AM, said:

Bad luck happens. Barely having enough wins to complete event after 60 matches - isn't bad luck. It's obvious pattern.

What is the common denominator in all these matches?

[Dark Fenrir the Fluffy]

Void Angel, on 19 December 2024 - 09:51 AM, said:

"Again," your claims are untrue, ans is the thesis in your signature: "While MM can provide good match to compensate bad one, what it can't provide - is moral compensation for humiliation." You're not being humiliated by the matchmaker; but you are simply ignoring how the matchmaker works - and embarrassing yourself in the process.

This is how conspiracy theories work: bias confirmation becomes a mania. You've long ago decided that you're right about this, despite the mountain of evidence that you are wrong. This happens because all information on the subject is filtered through your confirmation bias. You're supporting your dual nonsense claims (that I'm not "reading carefully" enough to understand your logic, and that PSR isn't being used by the matchmaker that uses PSR) with an empirically false assumption.

You apparently have gotten this assumption by reading through how the matchmaker works, and either misunderstanding it - because you didn't read carefully - or filtering it through a pre-existing bias. In any case, you took "the matchmaker can match people up to one tier up or down from their actual skill tier" and overgeneralized it to "matches are made using three tiers," which then becomes "the matchmaker just separates Tier4 from Tier1." Leaving aside the obvious fact that the matchmaker would still be using PSR to do this if it were actually the case, your opinion is baldly incorrect, given how the matchmaker works. You've taken "this can happen" and gotten "this is happening all the time" by mixing those filtered facts with your own subjective experiences - experiences that are in turn heavily subject to bias confirmation, in a vicious cycle. That's not how evidence works, and that's not how the matchmaker does things.

What actually happens is that once a match starts building in the matchmaker, it will try to find players of whatever Tier it's looking for; if and only if it cannot find a match within a certain timeframe, it will expand its search to include adjacent tiers. Usually, you're going to see people in your own Tier. Only if the population is too low to support timely matches in your Tier will you be matched outside of it - you can't take a possible outcome and pretend that it's the normal outcome. People will challenge you on that.

The mean, supposedly higher-tier players who are farming you are not the problem. It's your own refusal to use good builds, and very likely the stubborn refusal to stop using builds that don't work, which is not quite the same thing. You decry the meta, discounting the most effective builds, and saying that choosing a good build "takes away choice." Frankly, Nick Naylor does it better, but it's still rank sophistry in any case. But that, and the mentality that goes with it, are the reason for your bad matches - and as long as you deliberately play sub-optimal builds with a sub-par attitude, you're going to keep getting the red arrow you've earned.

I agreed right up until your last paragraph. Having the "right builds" doesn't even slightly help a newbie with a tier 1 player. That player knows (at this point after years and years of play) the weakness of most mechs, how to get a newbie to panic, how to draw him out from cover or away from the team, ect ect. that list could have 100 entries that tier 1 players know and use. The build wont help one iota. True it can make it worse, but the MUCh bigger issue is player skill. Your putting a special forces dude against an military academy trainee at best. There must be more tiers and have much more math put into what determines those tiers and many many more players so tier 5 and 4 never play against tier 1 or 2.

[Bassault]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 01:38 AM, said:

What I mean, is that we use nice zero-sum PSR, but it's used for what? To split whole playerbase into 5 Tiers, while ±2 can be matched together, so only use for this system - is to prevent Tier 4 from playing against Tier 1 (of course if release valves aren't open)? It's exact consequence of "experience = skill" design. Cuz if skill would mean anything - we would have "Find players with closest rating" system instead.

My 10 years of experience mean nothing. Because I will never play Meta. Never. Meta is boring. Meta removes choices. And any game is about choices. Otherwise it isn't game. Meta forces me to play certain way, that isn't fun for me.

The meta is very diverse at the moment, you're speaking only from a position of ignorance. There are plenty of choices to make, there's like 10 different archtype and multiple mechs for each one that do it significantly differently than the others. Tell me what you like to play, I can give you some builds to get you started on the path of reason.

[Dark Fenrir the Fluffy]

Bassault, on 19 December 2024 - 03:42 PM, said:

The meta is very diverse at the moment, you're speaking only from a position of ignorance. There are plenty of choices to make, there's like 10 different archtype and multiple mechs for each one that do it significantly differently than the others. Tell me what you like to play, I can give you some builds to get you started on the path of reason.

calling people "ignorant" because they have a different point of view or disagree on what the facts are doesn't help. suggesting build types for him does.

[pbiggz]

Dark Fenrir the Fluffy, on 19 December 2024 - 08:12 PM, said:

calling people "ignorant" because they have a different point of view or disagree on what the facts are doesn't help. suggesting build types for him does.

informed opinions and uninformed ones don't carry the same weight. Like it or not, there are right ways to play this game, and wrong ways. OP has demonstrated repeatedly that he is only interested in playing his way, which happens to be the wrong way, and he's not willing to reckon with the notion that this will impact his level of success.

[Xypherious]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 12:34 AM, said:

Bad luck happens. Barely having enough wins to complete event after 60 matches - isn't bad luck. It's obvious pattern.

Of course, it's all your fault. Just as it is mine that a significant portion of my teammates never communciate. I stole their mics, I guess. The matchmaking sytem is clearly flawed in some way. And yes, I am teir 5, and trying hard to get better and get out of tier 5 in the vain hope I will be matched with more competent players so I can enjoy the game more.

[crazytimes]

Xypherious, on 19 December 2024 - 09:34 PM, said:

Of course, it's all your fault. Just as it is mine that a significant portion of my teammates never communciate. I stole their mics, I guess. The matchmaking sytem is clearly flawed in some way. And yes, I am teir 5, and trying hard to get better and get out of tier 5 in the vain hope I will be matched with more competent players so I can enjoy the game more.

You're in tier 5- few people are going to add much of any substantive value talking to you. That's not the problem.

You play almost exclusively lights and mediums, and die early consistently. Consider branching out into some mid range heavies and focus on staying alive and in the fight for longer.Just being mon the field and doing damage for longer means` you're more likely to affect the outcome of the game.

[MrMadguy]

pbiggz, on 19 December 2024 - 09:27 PM, said:

informed opinions and uninformed ones don't carry the same weight. Like it or not, there are right ways to play this game, and wrong ways. OP has demonstrated repeatedly that he is only interested in playing his way, which happens to be the wrong way, and he's not willing to reckon with the notion that this will impact his level of success.

Meta isn't "right" way to play game. Meta is actually wrong. It's imbalance, created by incompetent devs. There are just two kinds of people. Ones, who simply adapt to situation, they live in. And others, who have true free minds and therefore want to break through from that dead loop.

Simple thing. How many 'Mechs do we have? How many 'Mech variants do we have? How many weapons do we have? What % is actually usable? I want to play, what I buy. And I buy, what I like. Without it game is pointless. Because I earn CBs and should spend them on something. There is nothing else to spend them on, than on buying new 'Mechs. And without proper balance - it's purchasing for collection purposes only.

Devs don't even understand, that they actually have terrible business model. They say "Buy shiny new Bullshark/Bane". But they don't tell their players, that their current Meta - is shorty Lights/Mediums, that are way too small for firepower they have, like Shadow Cat, Piranha, etc. And what their players end up with - is disappointment.

I don't ask to fix each and every build in this game. It's impossible due to historical reasons. Because game was tabletop, where things like armor worked properly. And now we have historical values, that don't work at all. For example armor should be doubled or tripled to work as intended. But at least if I play sub-par build, that isn't Meta, matchmaker should allow it via auto-balancing game according to "Noobs only play vs noobs and pros only play vs pros" principle.

Devs usually scared by good matchmaker and sometimes even intentionally refuse to make due to one simple reason. They don't want to reward players for being "bad". But they don't understand, that it kills their game. Because only 1% of top players can be truly "good". And it's exact playerbase, they end up with.

Edited by MrMadguy, 19 December 2024 - 11:12 PM.

[Void Angel]

martian, on 19 December 2024 - 10:39 AM, said:

I do not understand his visions. All right.

But you do not understand him too.

Oh, I understand - he just doesn't like my analysis.

[Void Angel]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2024 - 10:42 PM, said:

Meta isn't "right" way to play game. Meta is actually wrong. It's imbalance, created by incompetent devs. There are just two kinds of people. Ones, who simply adapt to situation, they live in. And others, who have true free minds and therefore want to break through from that dead loop.

Hahahah! Ahahaha! OK, you really didn't click on that Thank you for Smoking link, did you? "And that, Joey Naylor, that is the definition of liberty!" Meanwhile in reality, the meta isn't "wrong." It's not imbalanced by definition, nor is it even the only way to play the game successfully. What it is is an accepted and (importantly) proven set of strategies that are known to work for a broad variety of people - people like you! That's why when people, like you, are having problems with match performance - like you - they're generally going to be pointed to a meta build so they can get practice with what actually works and go on from there. The only dead loop here is your abysmal match performance.

This Shadowhawk, for example, is not a very meta build, but it works in quick play, with good firepower and decent survivability even with an XL - an earlier version (with SRMs and an AC/10) won the tenth spot for its chassis in the Project Phoenix contest they had a few years back. And it's not a meta build; it wasn't a meta build then. It uses weapons with radically different firing characteristics to deal its damage, for example - historically meta builds for this 'mech rely on UAC or RAC spam, with missiles as an emergency weapon bought with spare tonnage. But the 'mech works.

Now, I'm 48 years old; that's not ancient or anything, but I'm not matching reflexes successfully with anyone under 30. If I succeed in any shooter game, it's because I've used optimal weapons loadouts, skill nodes, and in-match positioning and communication to win. All of that boils down to practicing good tactics and being a student of the game. And you can do that, but you want to have your cake and eat it, too - the way you justify the contradiction is by pretending that the matchmaker isn't working right.

In point of fact, the matchmaker IS working like you say it should! I have a PSR rating; I drop into a match against other players and play; I use my skills to perform in the match; at the end of the match the results of my skilled efforts are compared against everyone else's, and my PSR rating goes up, or down - or stays the same, occasionally. Then we all queue up again and the process repeats. The net numerical value of those changes is zero - so the game cannot reward experience, only performance based on skill.

When it's all said and done, your main barrier to better matches and a higher match score is a critical deficiency of Vitamin W - you don't wanna. You don't wanna use better builds, you don't wanna get advice on tactics - and you don't wanna admit that the cause of your bad games might lie between your keyboard and your chair. And if you insist on that, well, go be free or whatever; but don't insist that a perfectly functional matchmaker is responsible for your inability - your refusal - to build good 'mechs and play the game well.

PS: It takes a very special kind of mentality to say "I'm a free thinker!" while stamping your foot and refusing to change your mind.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 December 2024 - 12:39 AM.

[MrMadguy]

No, it doesn't work this way. I don't need Shadowhawks, Shadow Cats, Shadow anything. If I want to play Bullshark - I buy Bullshark and play it. If Assaults are gimped in this game - then, well, it's just about devs shotting at their own leg.