83 replies to this topic

[Egomane]

On the first article I see only comments but not the actual articel, I have taken a quick look on the second one however. The numbers for PC-gaming include things like games on facebook, browsergames and similar, which technicaly can also be played on other platforms that can access it. It is also highly speculative as it works with expected numbers for future growth based only on assumptions. And it confirmed that the PC-gaming market for the last years stood in the shadows of consoles, that the gaming market revenue changes more and more to online games (which is as much a publishers choice, if not more, as it is a gamer one). As an online platform it is only logical that Steam plays a part in that, but it's the publisher choice wich games are made, how they are distributed and which player base they will support.

In result Steam didn't save anyone or anything, it is just a tool (as I said before). All choices are with the publishers and the gamers that follow them. And those choices, even so you may not admit it, are not in the interest of the gamers but only of the publishers themself. They want to control each and every single step in the gaming world. When you can buy a game, that you can never again sell it, and that you stop playing it as soon as they decide it. Or do you realy believe that you can play a game like CoD:MW2 or BF3 in ten or twenty years still if you want to? Good luck in finding servers for it when a publisher announces the end of support for a game. Steam, and the usage of Steam, plays right into their hands. You, the gamers, give them that control by supporting tools like Steam. Sure it's convinient to use such a platform, but it's not the god given gift to all players some like to believe. And it is no savior either.

I'm living right in the middle of europe. Steam does not offer any other payment method then credit card here. And I guess the same goes for other countries as well. At least that's what their terms of use say. As I will not register an account with them I can't confirm that though. But I'm not talking about a few thousend users but of millions. Not every of the 30 million steam users bought their games over steam. Every game, bought offline and registered with steam, can also create such a user, who never has the chance to buy anything there activly. As we have no numbers of how many users are buying from steam and how many simply have an account, we can't calculate with them.

And to keep this discussion interesting a qoute from a Valve speaker from the gamespy article

Quote

Lombardi makes it clear that Valve still values traditional retail and healthy competition in the digital distribution market. “We don’t advise folks to skip retail, or other digital outlets,” he says. “Every publisher and developer should consider the widest possible distribution possible.”

This is in direct opposition to what all of the pro-steamers here seem to want, when I read their posts. And is clearly what I said from the very beginning. The widest possible distribution for an online game is a self owned platform with marketing and selling of the game on steam as well.

[Halfinax]

Funny that that shift to Online distribution coincides with the launch of Steam, and grew as the catalog of games on Steam grew. You can read those articles with whatever bias you want, but it's very clear that Steam was a major player in that shift that also so a renewal in interest of the PC as a gaming platform. As to why the first link isn't working for you I have no idea. It works fine on my end. Anyone else having issues with the link for the Maximum PC article?

Edit: and no "all of us pro-steamers" never advocated Steam as being the one and only true way for PC Games. Again my entire argument has been that offering it on Steam, and using Steamworks makes a lot of business sense at this time. I don't want Steam to be the only distribution method for all games. We are discussing if it should have Steamworks not if it should be distributed solely through Steam.

The only reason I've been advocating potentially using Steamworks is because of their short operational window to launch the game. Having to code all those things that Steamworks offers in a short time and have them bug free takes time, and if they used Steamworks then they can focus their attention on making the amount of content on launch day more refined and even in greater quantity.

Edited by Halfinax, 08 January 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[Egomane]

I am not biased. Or at least I am trying not to be. That's why I am trying so hard to find a compromise, so that as many players as possible will be able to play that game. If it uses Steamworks some will be left out. If it does not uses Steam at all, some will never hear of it and miss it that way. I don't want either and I said so multiple times now.

Your advocating that steamworks is a good business choice is based on opinion not on facts. You don't have all the facts to advocate it as a good solution. That's what I'm trying to say. If it uses steamworks, it is bound to that service forever. If it turns out to be the wrong choice IGP is stuck and has to start over. It's a oneway ticket into success or failure. We don't know which.

We are arguing based on assumptions.
- We don't know what IGP wants to achive with the game or what community functions they want to include besides this portal.
- We don't know the numbers of player Steam can bring in or drive away.
- We don't know what the costs will be for IGP if the game is hosted on Steam and bound to Steamworks.
- We don't know how the limited payment methods of Steam in parts of the world are interfering with the microtransaction F2P system.
- We don't know if Steamworks will perform better or worse then a system IGP would implement.
- We don't know what ressources are aveilable to IGP for the game and it's sorroundings.
- We don't know how many users out of the 40 million (sorry for using the wrong number before) are activly using Steam and how many are simply logged on to it by their games they bought in a store.

In short: "We don't know anything!"
That is the base I'm trying to argue on. That is the base I'm trying to find a compromise on.

The only thing that I do know, is that I will leave if it becomes a Steam(works) only game, and I already posted why. It's my decision to do so and no one will change it, no matter wich pro Steam argument he/she might bring.

If we had facts, real numbers to base calculations on, and those would point to a Steam(works) game, I would tell you and everyone else to do it. But we don't have those. We can only guess. And as we have no such information, my compromise is the only logical choice, because it reaches the most players.

Maybe IGP has those numbers and is at this moment calculating it through or already have done those calculations. We won't know (yet again) until they tell us and so keep on arguing pro and contra Steam ad infinitum. We won't go anywhere with this thread until we get an announcement from Piranha Games or Infinitegames. Everything pro-Steam has been said multiple times now. We also heard voices against it (with me the loudest, I admit and hope my reasoning why became finaly clear to everyone), based on numerous reasons.

We should stop repeating those things over and over again and just wait what will happen. If IGP is reading this thread they will know where we stand on this issue, so a simple "Yes, I want Steam" or "No, I don't like Steam" should suffice to make our point (if IGP needs this thread as a decision maker at all).

[Halfinax]

My only issue as that it seems many of your anti-steam arguments are based on nothing more than fears of what could go wrong, but I'm not here trying to sway you, or anyone to the advantages or disadvantages of Steam. I've been showing what it does do and what it does offer. Many of your fears with Steamworks have the exact same possibilities of failure without it. They are business gambles that every business takes, but saying that having instant face time with 40 million active user accounts, and the average daily users of just over 4 million users is a boon for any game. I've seen these same arguments for many games across multiple forums, and in the end when the numbers roll in Steam was a boon. That's anecdotal for sure, but I've seen it.

It's not the perfect solution, and nothing ever will be, but having the very core of what a f2p multiplayer game needs (microtransaction store, friends lists for organizing, patch delivery system, and a large customer base) are built into Steamworks. Those are facts. Those are solid numbers, there is no what ifs or what could bes there. You want to see what could go wrong, but you ignore what can go right.

I don't mind if PGI, and IGP already have these things handled through their own ground up service, but if they don't then using Steamworks frees up valuable time and resources for making the game more full on launch date. More content to focus on rather than coding a store front, a means of community building within the game, and spending on advertisements to get their name out there further than they already have. I'm not trying to say that they must use Steamworks. I'm pointing out the benefits it does offer, but you just argue about the what-ifs of what might go wrong.

[Egomane]

I'm not arguing on what can go wrong. I never did. You are misinterpreting my words there. I'm arguing on the base that we don't know anything for a fact and you obviously don't want to listen to that.

We can't argue that Steam is good or bad either, because that lies in the perception of the individual. And I will not do it, which you also repeatedly fail to notice. The only thing I'm arguing against is to be totaly fixated on a Steam(works) release, as you seem to be.

It is obviously not possible to argue on equal grounds with each other. If you don't want to see that this whole argument is based on a biased view of pro-steam users, while I try to keep a neutral stand. I have so far countered or I have accepted each an every one of the pro-steam arguments from the very beginning. I accept that there are possibilities in the usage of steam, but you don't want to see that there are risks and problems as well.

Count it as your victory if you like, but I will quit arguing here now, as it is pointless to argue against a wall.

[Halfinax]

You didn't actually read my post at all did you? You keep accusing me of saying it must be a Steamworks title when I actually said:

Halfinax, on 08 January 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

I don't mind if PGI, and IGP already have these things handled through their own ground up service, but if they don't then using Steamworks frees up valuable time and resources for making the game more full on launch date. More content to focus on rather than coding a store front, a means of community building within the game, and spending on advertisements to get their name out there further than they already have. I'm not trying to say that they must use Steamworks. I'm pointing out the benefits it does offer, but you just argue about the what-ifs of what might go wrong.

As to your negativety towards it (or supposed lack there of):

Egomane, on 08 January 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

We are arguing based on assumptions.
- We don't know what IGP wants to achive with the game or what community functions they want to include besides this portal.
- We don't know the numbers of player Steam can bring in or drive away.
- We don't know what the costs will be for IGP if the game is hosted on Steam and bound to Steamworks.
- We don't know how the limited payment methods of Steam in parts of the world are interfering with the microtransaction F2P system.
- We don't know if Steamworks will perform better or worse then a system IGP would implement.
- We don't know what ressources are aveilable to IGP for the game and it's sorroundings.
- We don't know how many users out of the 40 million (sorry for using the wrong number before) are activly using Steam and how many are simply logged on to it by their games they bought in a store.

The only thing that I do know, is that I will leave if it becomes a Steam(works) only game, and I already posted why. It's my decision to do so and no one will change it, no matter wich pro Steam argument he/she might bring.

So instead of "interpreting" I'll go point by point on that little list (they are covered in the same order as your bulletin list.

-We can fairly assume they want a store with microtransactions as that is the very basis of a F2P game. We can fairly assume they want players to be able to connect to servers and play with friends. Both of these are offered in the Steamworks package. If they already have a solution fine, but hey if they don't this will save them some time for making a more complete product.

-Access to 40 million active user accounts. even just 1% of that is 400,000, or 1% of the 4+million current users is still 40k. 20,000+ unique MWO forum accounts even at a loss rate of 50% for people that can't stand the tought of Steam you are still looking at gaining a lot more. For F2P traffic is everything.

-We don't know exact figures correct, but we've seen in interviews that devs that use Steamworks have about a 50-70% return on the Point of sale price.

-Steam has 70% of DD market share. That means that 70% of all game related things that are bought or sold or offer something to sell in a digital format come from Steam. Which means that all though the issue you are discussing is valid it's small potatoes in the grand scheme.

-You are right, but we do know that developing those assets takes time which has been my point in that regard. I'd rather them spend the time developing more content than reinventing the wheel.

-Honestly I'm not entirely sure what you meant here. I would like some clarification please.

-The average minute to minute traffic for Steam users is tracked here It was hovering right around 4.4 million when I checked it, and yeah playing a game on Steam with the Steam service open is an active user at that moment. Generally I use Steam to play games.

It was your choice of words and fear of what if issues that made your post negative by the way, but perhaps I simply misinterpreted them. Please don't read my posts as hostile, and quit saying that I am insisting that PGI/IGP must use Steam as that is entirely without factual basis.

Edited by Halfinax, 08 January 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[Raeven]

Egomane, on 08 January 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

I'm not arguing on what can go wrong. I never did. You are misinterpreting my words there. I'm arguing on the base that we don't know anything for a fact and you obviously don't want to listen to that.

We can't argue that Steam is good or bad either, because that lies in the perception of the individual. And I will not do it, which you also repeatedly fail to notice. The only thing I'm arguing against is to be totaly fixated on a Steam(works) release, as you seem to be.

It is obviously not possible to argue on equal grounds with each other. If you don't want to see that this whole argument is based on a biased view of pro-steam users, while I try to keep a neutral stand. I have so far countered or I have accepted each an every one of the pro-steam arguments from the very beginning. I accept that there are possibilities in the usage of steam, but you don't want to see that there are risks and problems as well.

Count it as your victory if you like, but I will quit arguing here now, as it is pointless to argue against a wall.

There are risks with any system. I still don't get your particular objection to Steam.

Is it because you might have to create an account with Steam? If that's the argument, you'll still have to create an account with PG and IGP, even if you don't do microtransactions. The only thing those accounts require is a valid email address.

If you don't have access to a credit card, I don't see what you are worried about unless the system requires you to put in a credit card to play...which Steam or any other F2P game does not require.. The only time Steam asks for a credit card is when making purchases through the Steam store. You can save your information with your account...like any reputable online marketplace out there (amazon, newegg, b&n)...or you can input your information each time you make a purchase.

[Omigir]

Global Agenda

http://www.google.co...PWaGsXuO2EjfZEg

Global Agenda is a free to play game that existed on its own *BEFORE STEAM* and has ITS OWN SERVERS, on top of that, IT DOES NOT REQUIRE STEAM TO DOWNLOAD, PLAY, OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE GAME.

It appeared on Steam late last year with a hand full of other F2P games. If you have steam, you can go ahead and download it for a whopping purchase of 0.00 currency of your choice and you can play it through steam. Or, if you don’t want to play an online game through steam, you can go to global agenda's home page and just download their client without steam.

ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE INVALID.

Edited by Omigir, 08 January 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[Volume]

Omigir, on 08 January 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Global Agenda

http://www.google.co...PWaGsXuO2EjfZEg

Global Agenda is a free to play game that existed on its own *BEFORE STEAM* and has ITS OWN SERVERS, on top of that, IT DOES NOT REQUIRE STEAM TO DOWNLOAD, PLAY, OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE GAME.

It appeared on Steam late last year with a hand full of other F2P games. If you have steam, you can go ahead and download it for a whopping purchase of 0.00 currency of your choice and you can play it through steam. Or, if you don’t want to play an online game through steam, you can go to global agenda's home page and just download their client without steam.

ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE INVALID.

I would like to point out that Global Agenda used to be a standard "purchase once and have" title with optional subscription or something along those lines at some point. I bought a copy when it was on sale, and they converted it into a VIP Agent or something when they went to their F2P "Global Agenda Free Agent" game that they're on now. I'm only mentioning this because when they went F2P, they gained 5x the playerbase, and are making more money than they ever made when the game had a buy-once or P2P sub model.

I am not sure how much of that playerbase or revenue can be directly correlated to Steam, but many titles (such as Spiral Knights, Bloodline Champions, Rusty Hearts) at least got more off-the-ground because of their association with Steam and the promotion that Steam helped give them/get them. That said, I still feel that Steam gamers are "fickle" for lack of a better term, may jump ship whenever something "cooler" comes along, and also feel that any possible player-retention issues should be dealt with before marketing a game on a digital distribution service such as Steam.

[Dlardrageth]

Halfinax, on 08 January 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

[...]
-Access to 40 million active user accounts. even just 1% of that is 400,000, or 1% of the 4+million current users is still 40k. 20,000+ unique MWO forum accounts even at a loss rate of 50% for people that can't stand the tought of Steam you are still looking at gaining a lot more. For F2P traffic is everything.

Little nit-pick here. I am probably one of those 40 million "active" users, as I do happen to have a Steam account. Do I ever actively "use" Steam though? Nope. I don't care for their forums, reviews or whatever, I don't look at those and am annoyed every time their ****** icon pops up unnecessarily, frankly. I only have it because it came as a so-called "integrated feature" with 2 of the games on my computer. If that is your typical "active account", yeah, Reckon that will be loads of new customers for MWO potentially... or not?

Quote

-Steam has 70% of DD market share. That means that 70% of all game related things that are bought or sold or offer something to sell in a digital format come from Steam. Which means that all though the issue you are discussing is valid it's small potatoes in the grand scheme.

That's the number for the US? For worldwide distribution? For Outer Mongolia? I assume it's the US, perhaps the North America market number. Which, honestly, is only one part of the global market. Maybe a big one, still only one part. And unless you have prophetic gifts you won't be able to tell which part of the future MWO customer base will be based in North America after all. What if it only were 15-20%? Yeah, that would totally justify embarking on the "Steam boat", which might be relevant for about one fifth of your customers, and not for four fifths... or not.

Quote

-The average minute to minute traffic for Steam users is tracked here It was hovering right around 4.4 million when I checked it, and yeah playing a game on Steam with the Steam service open is an active user at that moment. Generally I use Steam to play games.

You seriously think every single user closes down that Steam service on every game start? Which has that annoying habit of starting automatically with that game's launch? I know for a fact I don't, and I wont rate myself that lazy a person. And like stated before, I use Steam for exactly nothing and haven't done so for... hm... months? Years? So these theorethical 4.4 million might easily be againj just a number on paper and more likely the actual number of "Steam-aware" player might be far less than a million. So much for the hype on "active numbers" many game companies like to brag about.

I'm not saying PGI must or must not cooperate with Steam/Valve or whatever. It is not my place to say so and furthermore I do not particularily care as a player. I do care though when it comes to the point of integrating MWO within steam (or vice versa), as I find it unnecessary and potentially detrimental even. Not for the US market probably, granted, but then not the whole (gaming) world revolves solely around the US. And for the international market full Steam integration could actually cause some issues.

Raeven, on 08 January 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

[...]The only time Steam asks for a credit card is when making purchases through the Steam store. You can save your information with your account...like any reputable online marketplace out there (amazon, newegg, b&n)...or you can input your information each time you make a purchase.

The whole credit card issue looks quite differently for the US as it looks for some other countries. You know that you have to pay a monthly/annual fee for getting one over here even if you never use it once? You know the amount of paperwork and background checks they subjugate you to on application for one over here? You know that I can shop at e.g Amazon just fine over here without any credit card?

I think PGI is likely more aware of these matters when it comes to international distribution than some of the forum users here. If you are talking about making the premium content, the one that yields the income, tieing to Steam via full Steam integration, that will likely cost PGI some income. Because I'm surely not the only one who sure as hell freezes over won't get a credit card solely for bloody Steam. And yes, thank you, I don't need one otherwise and haven't for the whole last decade.

So yeah, let the devs work out any level of cooperation with Steam/Valve they want/deem necessary, let MWO be distributed via Steam as well, I'm fine with that. But don't tie MWO to Steam/Valve with solid iron chains that would weigh you down potentially.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 08 January 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Dlardrageth]

Raeven, on 07 January 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

All of you with this complaint, you do know you can load up any single player game you have through steam in offline mode, right?

I didn't get the Steam-tied games through Steam. They simply integrated a hook into that game that checks/logs into Steam at game start. If it doesn't get back the reply from Steam, it just doesn't start. Yes, I cannot play "single player in offline mode" because Steam being down prevents the game from functioning at all. For a game I bought conventionally in a shop. Hurray for full Steam integration!

Not sure if it actually has data stored on some Steam server or not. And I'm not bothering to spend hours over hours in an eventually futile attempt to bypass that. It is just annoying as hell.

[Halfinax]

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Little nit-pick here. I am probably one of those 40 million "active" users, as I do happen to have a Steam account. Do I ever actively "use" Steam though? Nope. I don't care for their forums, reviews or whatever, I don't look at those and am annoyed every time their ****** icon pops up unnecessarily, frankly. I only have it because it came as a so-called "integrated feature" with 2 of the games on my computer. If that is your typical "active account", yeah, Reckon that will be loads of new customers for MWO potentially... or not?

That is just active accounts. I never claimed anything more, but it's a hell of a large number and even if only 1% of them actually take full advantage of it that is 400,000 people. A figure you seemed to ignore in my quote there.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

That's the number for the US? For worldwide distribution? For Outer Mongolia? I assume it's the US, perhaps the North America market number. Which, honestly, is only one part of the global market. Maybe a big one, still only one part. And unless you have prophetic gifts you won't be able to tell which part of the future MWO customer base will be based in North America after all. What if it only were 15-20%? Yeah, that would totally justify embarking on the "Steam boat", which might be relevant for about one fifth of your customers, and not for four fifths... or not.

According to Impulse both say "overall" (i.e. globally) and even suggests they account for 50-70% of all PC game sales. So speculation on your part aside that's a hell of a lot.

Edit: for some reason it only wants to see one of those links in that line so here's the Forbes article.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

You seriously think every single user closes down that Steam service on every game start? Which has that annoying habit of starting automatically with that game's launch? I know for a fact I don't, and I wont rate myself that lazy a person. And like stated before, I use Steam for exactly nothing and haven't done so for... hm... months? Years? So these theorethical 4.4 million might easily be againj just a number on paper and more likely the actual number of "Steam-aware" player might be far less than a million. So much for the hype on "active numbers" many game companies like to brag about.

Nope, I don't think every user that is currently online with Steam is actively paying attention to it, and again you ignored that pesky 1% number I threw in there which actually suggests I am aware that all online users aren't actively using it.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

I'm not saying PGI must or must not cooperate with Steam/Valve or whatever. It is not my place to say so and furthermore I do not particularily care as a player. I do care though when it comes to the point of integrating MWO within steam (or vice versa), as I find it unnecessary and potentially detrimental even. Not for the US market probably, granted, but then not the whole (gaming) world revolves solely around the US. And for the international market full Steam integration could actually cause some issues.

I have no vested interest whether or not MWO does have Steam integration, and have simple pointed out the business opportunity it presents with hard numbers instead of my own anecdotes and fly in the face of facts logic. Again the numbers I'm sourcing are global.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

So yeah, let the devs work out any level of cooperation with Steam/Valve they want/deem necessary, let MWO be distributed via Steam as well, I'm fine with that. But don't tie MWO to Steam/Valve with solid iron chains that would weigh you down potentially.

I agree on fine with your first sentence let PGI and IGP determine what level of intigration they want with service as long as they are providing a fully realized product, but again I can't agree with your final sentence there because ultimately it's PGI/IGP's choice on whether or not they will/should go that route. With any choice there will be pros and there will be cons, and that's for them to weigh. I would like to see Steamworks used as I said for the simple reason that it would give PGI more time to develop other in game assests instead of using up a bunch of their man hours creating the multitude of things they will have to create without Steamworks, however I won't lose anything or be any less loyal to this game regardless of what route they choose.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

I didn't get the Steam-tied games through Steam. They simply integrated a hook into that game that checks/logs into Steam at game start. If it doesn't get back the reply from Steam, it just doesn't start. Yes, I cannot play "single player in offline mode" because Steam being down prevents the game from functioning at all. For a game I bought conventionally in a shop. Hurray for full Steam integration!

Not sure if it actually has data stored on some Steam server or not. And I'm not bothering to spend hours over hours in an eventually futile attempt to bypass that. It is just annoying as hell.

Yeah, that's a developer error there. If I recall it's something to do with the game actually trying to check for connections constantly. That's not an issue directly related to Steam. It was either one of the Total War games, or one of the Mount and Blade games iirc, but I don't remember what the workaround was.

Edited by Halfinax, 08 January 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[Dlardrageth]

Halfinax, on 08 January 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

That is just active accounts. I never claimed anything more, but it's a hell of a large number and even if only 1% of them actually take full advantage of it that is 400,000 people. A figure you seemed to ignore in my quote there.

Actually, no, I just think that 1% is about as much speculative as any number. We cannot know for a fact if even one single person of those 40 millions will be relevant, can we?

Quote

According to Impulse and Forbes both say "overall" (i.e. globally) and even suggests they account for 50-70% of all PC game sales. So speculation on your part aside that's a hell of a lot.

Nice link, which quotes an "estimation" of DD share. Also it it says "as the current market leader". Doesn't sound much like global stats to me. And nowhere does it explicitly state it is in any way relevant to the global market. See the comments section below that article.

And considering the sources are both heavily US-centric (Impulse and Forbes), I still keep to the assumption those are US numbers. Can't see anything stating specifically the global relevance, sorry.

Quote

With any choice there will be pros and there will be cons, and that's for them to weigh. I would like to see Steamworks used as I said for the simple reason that it would give PGI more time to develop other in game assests instead of using up a bunch of their man hours creating the multitude of things they will have to create without Steamworks, however I won't lose anything or be any less loyal to this game regardless of what route they choose.

Agree with the pros and cons involved there. Not so sure about the development angle though. Could well be PGI has that part of the development process pretty much done already. In which case Steamworks would be somewhat redundant, right?

Edited by Dlardrageth, 08 January 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[Halfinax]

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Actually, no, I just think that 1% is about as much speculative as any number. We cannot know for a fact if even one single person of those 40 millions will be relevant, can we?

Yes, actually I can for a fact say that at least one person will be relevant, but if you want to use that argument then well we can't assume that anyone will use the game regardless of it's delivery system and that no numbers anywhere many anything at all ever.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Nice link, which quotes an "estimation" of DD share. Also it it says "as the current market leader". Doesn't sound much like global stats to me. And nowhere does it explicitly state it is in any way relevant to the global market. See the comments section below that article.

"Our estimation is that Steam - as the current market leader - enjoys approximately 70 percent of the overall digital distribution market. Note that is overall market share not US not NA not Northern Hemisphere. Overall as in: "with everyone or everything taken into account."

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Not so sure about the development angle though. Could well be PGI has that part of the development process pretty much done already. In which case Steamworks would be somewhat redundant, right?

Yes, they very well could, and I've said as such in some of my earlier posts.

Oh and Witcher 2 is another of games with the launcher issue, but it's not Steamworks, or at all Steam's fault, as I said it was a developer problem with the way the games launcher acts.

[Omigir]

You can have a game be available on steam, without it being a requirment to have in order to play, look at at the F2P games already on steam, you can DL those games from thier own websites without the use of steam, at all. So steam players can get MW:O through steam, and you can get it from the MW:O home page.

How do I know this is how it works? Steam already does this with the F2P games they have available in thier 'store'.

So why does it matter if you like steam or not? You wouldnt be required to have steam in order to get hte game even if it was featured on steam.

[Dlardrageth]

Well, I mean, we can argue around in circles all we want what exactly that "market" the interview quote refers to means. It's just my perception that it is still somewhat hard to get reliable global market data at all, more so with regards to digital media/distribution. Thus the "overall market" statement quoted I would expect to be US- or North America-specific more likely. Somewhat sure you might have problems taking into account reliable data from the, say, chinese or cuban market. Sure, you can always just go by estimates, but...

But even assuming it was indeed global data, that doesn't render my initial argument totally irrelevant. Considering outside the US DD seems to be somewhat less popular. But don't take my word for that alone...

According to Steam's own press relaese from 20th of October last year they are catering to "over 30 million active users worldwide". And still for some reason they entered the cooperation with Xsolla there to get better access to the russian market. Seems they didn't have all that great a market share on that part of the global market, why else cooperate? Also, another little quote from that official Steam press release states the "over 38 million players in the Russian Federation", which in relation to their stated own "over 30 million users worldwide" seems an interesting number. Doesn't suggest at all that Steam is a big "global player" to me.

And yes, Omigir, excactly my point, let MWO be available at Steam or whatever, but let it stop there. I see no need to integrate it with SteamWorks or the "shop" for MWO being located at Steam.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 08 January 2012 - 10:56 PM.

[Halfinax]

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Well, I mean, we can argue around in circles all we want what exactly that "market" the interview quote refers to means. It's just my perception that it is still somewhat hard to get reliable global market data at all, more so with regards to digital media/distribution. Thus the "overall market" statement quoted I would expect to be US- or North America-specific more likely. Somewhat sure you might have problems taking into account reliable data from the, say, chinese or cuban market. Sure, you can always just go by estimates, but...

The definition of overall is clear cut. Perhaps you can argue all day about whether or not facts are facts, and whether or not the definition of a word is the definition of a word, but it's not rational.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

But even assuming it was indeed global data, that doesn't render my initial argument totally irrelevant. Considering outside the US DD seems to be somewhat less popular. But don't take my word for that alone...

I don't have anyway of knowing how much market penteration DD of video games has in other parts of the world, and will not speculate on them.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

According to Steam's own press relaese from 20th of October last year they are catering to "over 30 million active users worldwide". And still for some reason they entered the cooperation with Xsolla there to get better access to the russian market. Seems they didn't have all that great a market share on that part of the global market, why else cooperate? Also, another little quote from that official Steam press release states the "over 38 million players in the Russian Federation", which in relation to their stated own "over 30 million users worldwide" seems an interesting number. Doesn't suggest at all that Steam is a big "global player" to me.

Xsolla is a paypal like service not a DD. The "38 million" gamers in Russia, is vastly different from Steams 40 Million active (as opposed to registered) users.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

And yes, Omigir, excactly my point, let MWO be available at Steam or whatever, but let it stop there. I see no need to integrate it with SteamWorks or the "shop" for MWO being located at Steam.

Then again you're not a developer that has to spend time and money developing all the stuff that is built into Steamworks, but again it's their choice and I won't with hold my excitement for this title or my patronage regardless of PGI and IGP's choice in this matter.

[Dlardrageth]

Halfinax, on 08 January 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

[...]Xsolla is a paypal like service not a DD. The "38 million" gamers in Russia, is vastly different from Steams 40 Million active (as opposed to registered) users.

I am well aware of that, but the total of 38 million gamers in russia alone (Steam's numbers, not mine!) compared to the "over 30 million active users worldwide" (again Steam's numbers, not mine) puts somewhat of a perspective on the overall importance/relevance of digital distribution via Steam for a global market audience. Thus their 70% market share on DD doesn't mean all that much compared to the overall market audience. "Overall" here meaning global gaming market, to be specific.

In particular if it comes with restrictions entailed. Like the credit card issue mentioned already for example. Or Steam's "interesting" pricing policy with regards to different markets, to cite just one other possible issue. (Which, BTW, didn't Steam earn much love and customer popularity in europe.)

And yes, of course all of the above would not withhold dedication to MWO possibly. It might very well influence actual income numbers for PGI, though, to some degree. Depending on PGI opting for "Steam integration" or not. And I can agree to disagree on the implications on that sector with you wholeheartedly.

[Halfinax]

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

I am well aware of that, but the total of 38 million gamers in russia alone (Steam's numbers, not mine!) compared to the "over 30 million active users worldwide" (again Steam's numbers, not mine) puts somewhat of a perspective on the overall importance/relevance of digital distribution via Steam for a global market audience. Thus their 70% market share on DD doesn't mean all that much compared to the overall market audience. "Overall" here meaning global gaming market, to be specific.

You are confusing several issues here. I never claimed, nor did anyone else, at anypoint that Steam had most of the market share of all gamers. There are 38 million Russian gamers, but not all of them are PC gamers, and of those not all use DD services. Being better able to reach a group means just that. Being more accessible to a group. Obviously there are a lot more gamers than the 40 million active users Steam has, but the reach approximately 70% of their demographic, which would be the PC gamers that use DD services.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

In particular if it comes with restrictions entailed. Like the credit card issue mentioned already for example. Or Steam's "interesting" pricing policy with regards to different markets, to cite just one other possible issue. (Which, BTW, didn't Steam earn much love and customer popularity in europe.)

If you can't use a credit card you aren't going to be able to use MWO's service either so that argument is fairly silly. Yes, It is odd that Steam's prices are the same in Euros as it is in USD, but my understanding is those prices are set by the publishers, and not Valve.

Dlardrageth, on 08 January 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

And yes, of course all of the above would not withhold dedication to MWO possibly. It might very well influence actual income numbers for PGI, though, to some degree. Depending on PGI opting for "Steam integration" or not. And I can agree to disagree on the implications on that sector with you wholeheartedly.

Yes, we can agree on that point, but obviously stand on opposite spectrums.

[Prince Ian Davion]

Only read half of the first page..

Just because you can get a game through Steam, doesn't mean that you REQUIRE Steam to join servers or anything...Look at Forsaken World, a free-to-play MMORPG. You can get it from their site (which has NOTHING to do with Steam) or from Steam...And that's as far as it goes. About the only difference between the two is that you can use the steam interface and chat iwth the steam version...and you can do that if you link the other copy to your Steam anyway. Woopity Doo?

If MWO is linked to Steam the same way as Forsaken World, that'd be great. More people can see the game and possibly be enticed to try it.

Edited by SR Guillotine, 09 January 2012 - 08:03 AM.