950 replies to this topic

[Melcyna]

Sidney, on 07 August 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

It's often referred to as 'FASA Physics' and the like. The Classic Battletech forum often uses the term 'FASAnomics' to explain the way Houses spend so little on their militaries and a single lance of 'mechs (and a light one at that) can take and hold a planet with a population in the millions.



It's not intended to penetrate. That's the thing. Vehicles- and especially 21st and 22nd era ones- suffer this liability. 'Mechs do not. Hence why crtiical hits can be hit when armour is remaining, especially 22nd era or earlier armour.

Putting enough 'primitive' armour on a 'mech so it has a BAR of 7 allows any weapon that deals 7 damage or more to 'penetrate' and obtain critical hits. Modern armour needs to be removed to a sufficient degree for critical hits and internal damage to be done.

Hence the shift in weapon philosophy. Weapons are designed to weaken the armour as much as it can in a location.



And that's why real world guns don't compare to what exists in Battletech. They don't play by the same rules- Gauss Rifles in space combat exceed speeds of Mach...15? 16? Something like that- and yet an Aerospace fighter can easily shrug them off because they have armour that's a few mm thick.

Battlemechs use very similiar armour, that can also easily stop such weapons...yet if they fall down, the armour shatters like glass.

Which makes no sense either way...
that falling mech essentially experience localized pressure equivalent to having explosion shockwave in your face, which means a single detonation of an explosive charge in front of the mech would just shatter all it's armor then from the pressure blast if by simply falling it can shatter it's armor since it's weight is incredibly light for something of it's size (yet another anomaly in BT, 14m tall and it weigh less than 100 ton? whatever they are using is practically aluminum class light).

If the armor is being hit by non penetrating weapon for example, and it's taking damage still either way even without penetration then essentially the armor is ablative... but this makes no sense when related to physical projectile especially since ablative armor NEED THICKNESS to work properly, thin and ablative is illogical since that gives the lowest possible capacity to stop an incoming threat.

[Sidney]

Melcyna, on 07 August 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

thin and ablative is illogical since that gives the lowest possible capacity to stop an incoming threat.

Welcome to FASAsics

It's a game- don't try to make it make sense...it'll win...

Edited by Sidney, 07 August 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[gorbs]

Gridian, on 31 July 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Killing was thirsty business after all."

You can get it taking out a weapons production facility. You can get it crippling a Jenner. Matter o' fact, I got one now. Dav. Davion Bitter.

[Melcyna]

Sidney, on 07 August 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Welcome to FASAsics

It's a game- don't try to make it make sense...it'll win...

True, though i never try to make sense of the material if the lore material doesn't try it itself...

either way it doesn't detract from the game's enjoyment, but when well fleshed the lore in games can be an interesting side distraction.

the odd part though is that in their own lore, like in their Techmanual, some of their components are described with surprising physics coherence... like their engine... but with extreme bizarro FASAsics in others.

[Freeride Forever]

SakuranoSenshi, on 03 August 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

He may have scoffed and been wrong but there won't be bipedal war machines weighing in at a hundred tonnes, I can assure you. :-)

Predicting the future is notoriously difficult but ruling out the impossible is a lot less hard, the trick is to actually know what's impossible and what's simply not feasible right now. Fusion reactors are not feasible but seem entirely possible (famously, the stars are fusion reactions running wild), to the point that we may well see them within the century (or we may not, that prediction thing, you know? ;-) ). For a variety of hard physics reasons, we won't see an Atlas, ever.

There were people that could assure others that man would never fly also. There are still whackos that go around "assuring" others that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, transcendent super existence has the whole world in its hands & actually gives a **** what were doing on it. Some of them are so freakin' bat **** insane over it that they blow themselves up with bombs & turn airplanes into missles, but they're still wrong. Ignorance often runs hand in hand with assurance. Can you really not think of any situation where walking has an advantage over rolling? Something that can walk/jump when the going gets rough is not unlikely. The reduced efficiency of reciprocating movements is insignificant if you're powered by a fusion reactor. Take a guess at how I get my dads backhoe out've the mud when I get it stuck. When something can walk on 30' high legs, it can step over problems that can't be rolled around or over.

Melee combat is stupid. Why the **** do so many mechs in MWO have hands?

[Freeride Forever]

Theodor Kling, on 06 August 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Religions tend to endure a while. And to be fair: Budhism, Hinduism and Islam also still exist in BT

To be fair, they are also ridiculous, now, and then.

Edited by Freeride Forever, 07 August 2012 - 11:29 PM.

[Elessar]

Freeride Forever, on 07 August 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

To be fair, they are also ridiculous, now, and then.

I have no doubts that nevertheless, even in the far future there will still be people believing in Christianity (or buddhism or any other faith).

I mean, look at one of the newer invented religions ... Scientology
The backstory of this religion is even more ridiculous (about this mega villain who put millions of his people into volcanoes, killed them by detonating them and then caught their souls, brainwashed them and put them into some apes apes (who then became us humans) only to be finally succumb to a galatic rebellion and be incarcerated into a mountain) ... exactly the material for a SciFi story (and Hubbard, after all, was a SciFi writer) but hardly a story to believe in
Nevertheless thousands of people believe in it

Edited by Elessar, 08 August 2012 - 01:17 AM.

[Melcyna]

Freeride Forever, on 07 August 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Can you really not think of any situation where walking has an advantage over rolling? Something that can walk/jump when the going gets rough is not unlikely. The reduced efficiency of reciprocating movements is insignificant if you're powered by a fusion reactor. Take a guess at how I get my dads backhoe out've the mud when I get it stuck. When something can walk on 30' high legs, it can step over problems that can't be rolled around or over.

If fusion reactor turns all efficiency problem insignificant (ie: implying that it's output is limitless, which it isn't incidentally of course), then the first thing they'd do would be to mount it on the flying vehicle and mount a bunker load of armor and weapon on it instead of mounting it on a walking platform, you have in essence now have a flying battleship.

The challenge is not in having your design just MOVE, the challenge is in having your design CARRY the maximum amount of protection, and firepower while still retaining the necessary mobility.

There's no such thing as insignificant when it comes to power efficiency especially in the military because there is never spare room, every combat design that is expected to withstand incoming fire will be jam packed with gears, armor, weapon, other equipment, plus the crew if it's manned and still expected to move with acceptable speed and agility.

Spare energy don't and shouldn't exist in a military design unless specifically planned for, if your design have 5MW extra output from the reactor then that's 5MW you are not USING to power more weight capacity to carry heavier armor, or heavier gun, or faster speed.

And 30' high legs?

To the military that's equivalent to:
a TARGET over 30' high and asking to be shot like one.

Real warfare is not about announcing your presence by standing tall and high so everyone can see you and shoot you, rather the opposite actually since everyone wants to be as low profile as possible and NOT draw attention on them that will get them shot.

Edited by Melcyna, 08 August 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[Theodor Kling]

Freeride Forever, on 07 August 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Melee combat is stupid. Why the **** do so many mechs in MWO have hands?

Fully movable arms and hands might help you whne it comes to cossing rough terrain. You might pick up salvage, personell or other important stuff up with them.. and just in case it comes to melee ( frequently happening with BT weapon ranges)it´s also hand y to hit someone with an amored fist instead of a potentially delicate weapon barrel.
All in all they give you more flexibility. A mech with fully modelled arms might be able to clib a ledge where an armless design like the catapult might not ( a non jump jet version). Alos getting up again after beeing knocked ove is much easier with ams. And evne more so if it´s not lower arm= barrel. A wahrhammer can stadn up more easiyl then a catapult, and a Shadow Hawk even more so.

I agree that closing in for melee is a stupid thing to do in most combat situations. But it is always wise to keep the option, just in case.

[Vanir]

I actually don't really have a problem with Melee. You could force arms to go wide with grappels, knock mechs down, kick them in the knee joints, lots of stuff. Is it silly that mechs would survive fire to get into melee? very much so yes, but in ultra-dense urban environs I could see it, maybe...

[Skylarr]

Pleeeaaaasssse, do not discuss religion or current politics here. They are the most heated topics and I do not want to see this Thread locked out.

That being said if you look through the original Source books for the 3025 era they do state each of the Houses position on religions. One example is the Azami in the House Kurita Source book.

In 2497, the Combine moved to take control of the planets held by the Azami. However, a virus to which the Azami themselves were immune killed the Kurita forces, leaving the determined natives victorious. After this, the Combine decided to grant the Azami limited autonomy in return for their loyalty and service. This included being able to continue practicing their branch of Islam, which is forbidden in the Combine. To make use of their spirit, they were trained as MechWarriors and granted three regiments worth of light and medium 'Mechs. These forces, known as the Arkab Legions, specialize in lightning-quick reconnaissance and raiding. Their unit colors are desert tan or dark green. They are not required to wear the Draconis Combine crest, due to their partial autonomy. The Legions are normally stationed on their homeworlds, but are expected to go where needed; the Lyran Commonwealth and the Federated Suns have suffered many raids conducted by the Azami warriors.

During the Clan Invasion the 2nd Arkab Legion, who had managed to keep Star League BattleMechs in working order long after losing the technology to create them, and employed them against the Smoke Jaguars on Hyner. While they lost the planet, they inflicted heavy casualties on the Clan and shot Khan Hoyt's 'Mech out from under him.

[Dantiger]

40 years ago everyone said that we would be piloting turbine car... it is impossible to predict the future

[Sidney]

Melcyna, on 07 August 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

True, though i never try to make sense of the material if the lore material doesn't try it itself...

either way it doesn't detract from the game's enjoyment, but when well fleshed the lore in games can be an interesting side distraction.

the odd part though is that in their own lore, like in their Techmanual, some of their components are described with surprising physics coherence... like their engine... but with extreme bizarro FASAsics in others.

Well, the game itself was conceived first, and the lore came afterwards. (I think I read once it allegedly started on a napkin in a bar).

As for the detail in Techmanual, especially the engines, that's Michael Miller- or "Cray" on the Battletech forums.

He's a materials engineer by day, freelance writer for Battletech by night. He's taken on the difficult task of trying to rectify Battlech with reality- or at least close enough that it still seems somewhat plausible. Or at least, that's what he tries to do when writing the technical fluff he's usually assigned- basically, as far as I know, most, if not all, of the 'how this works' sections are assigned to him.

He can't contradict earlier works, of course- I remember reading posts by Cray a couple of times where he would 'love' to rewrite how lasers work on armour: Penetrate the first layer, where the heat and steam of melting armour causes reptures and explosions. He noted, however, that far too many novels depict melted armour 'running like water' to do that. It's firmly established lasers simply melt armour away- which requires far more energy to do.

As mentioned, he's the one that reconciled 'stackpoling' engines with the game in Techmanual . 'Mechs use cold fusion engines, which theoretically can't go 'nuclear' like in the novels- so he wrote in Techmanual 'in character' that it's a misonception they go 'nuclear'. Instead it's a rare occurence where pressure and steam escape...similiar to a boiler, as I'm sure you know. You mentioned the writing in Techmanual afterall

If you have questions on 'how things work' in Battletech, definately go pop over to the Battletech forums and ask there. Don't worry... Cray will find you sooner or later, and seems always up for a debate when it comes to physics.

[Elessar]

Dantiger, on 08 August 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

40 years ago everyone said that we would be piloting turbine car... it is impossible to predict the future

And would have mini nuclear reactors that supply our houses and cars, as well as regular flights to the moon and to space stations for recreational purposes.
On the other hand most, if not all people in the 60s/70s underestimated the huge technological development with regards to computerpower (and graphical user interfaces). I think We should be glad that they erred in many ways ... I wouldn´t want to play mechwarrior on a computer terminal like Spock had at its science station on the bridge of the enterprise

[Python46]

Melcyna, your arguments on space battles are irrelevant and at least 1 "fact" you posted is exceptionally inaccurate. first, the speed of light is 186,000 feet/sec, not 300,000 km/sec. your estimate is several times the speed of light. your second issue is that you talk about your overwhelming force against his far inferior force. perhaps you weren't paying attention to ANY of the game background or ANY of the books. until the clans return to the Inner Sphere, there are VERY FEW space worthy warships still there. the SLDF cowards took most of them when they left, and stupid commanders got many of the remaining ones destroyed by not protecting them. they are now(3049) rarely seen outside their hope patrol zones(usually capital worlds) of each Successor House. the only ships available for space combat are the dropships. and they aren't really configured for it. so your assumption of controlling jump points is irrelevant. there just aren't the ships to do it with.

as to your assertions about oceans, if you mean to control them on a planet, you'd have to haul naval vessels around in dropships and i seriously doubt you could manage more than 1 or 2 sizable vessels in 1 dropship, and even then, i don't know how you would get them out. they aren't designed for something that large. remember that our aircraft carriers are something in the neighborhood of 100,000 tons displacement. or 1,000 times the weight of an atlas.

and for whoever talked about a communications company stopping a war dead in it's tracks, stop and think about that for a second and you'll understand how that is possible. interplanetary communications tech exists almost solely in the hands of COMSTAR, in the BT universe. so how are you going to let your leaders know you need more help, if you're losing a battle, if COMSTAR doesn't let you send messages? you're going to have to send a messenger, via dropship, to one of the jump points, to hopefully catch a jumpship, which then jumps to another star system, where either you have direct access to your leadership and reinforcements or you have to try to send the communique from another COMSTAR center, or jump again. keep in mind it usually takes 2 or more days to travel from planetside to a jump point. and, if you have to jump again, it takes another week to recharge the sail, each time.

that goes back to another statement made, about it taking very little energy to make the jump. i'm not sure what your definition of very little energy is, but if you don't get much out of deploying a solar sail that would probably cover a circle with a radius of a dozen city blocks, for a week, there's probably something wrong with your technology, beyond it being lacking in feasibility. the amount of radiation from the average star is huge, out in space. collecting it would allow you to store vast quantities of energy.

[Riin Suul]

Freeride Forever, on 07 August 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Ignorance often runs hand in hand with assurance.

wow... I've never heard that one before, and it is SO true.

[Theodor Kling]

Elessar, on 08 August 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

And would have mini nuclear reactors that supply our houses and cars, as well as regular flights to the moon and to space stations for recreational purposes.
On the other hand most, if not all people in the 60s/70s underestimated the huge technological development with regards to computerpower (and graphical user interfaces). I think We should be glad that they erred in many ways ... I wouldn´t want to play mechwarrior on a computer terminal like Spock had at its science station on the bridge of the enterprise

Yeah.. I once read the first few Pery Rhodan episodes ... sure that is not exactly hard sci fi .But it is geat to have a spaceship that can use 6dimensional manipulation of space to jump up to 500 light years, controlled by tape recording computers.. that are not even connected. No.. you let the navigation computer make it´s calculations, then get a tape from it ( or was it even a punch card ? ), then feed that to the piloting computer.
Or worldwide mobile comunication.. fitting into the pockests of your trousers.

Python46, on 08 August 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Melcyna, your arguments on space battles are irrelevant and at least 1 "fact" you posted is exceptionally inaccurate. first, the speed of light is 186,000 feet/sec, not 300,000 km/sec. your estimate is several times the speed of light.

Although I agree with the rest of your post, both concerning space battles and Comstar, the speed of light is
299 792 458 m/sec

[Elsydeon]

Hands are useful still.

While most Clans prefer handless Mechs (OmniMechs can not mount hands or lower arms if PPCs, AC, or Gauss Rifles are used in the arms), Snow Raven R-Teams use Mechs with hands and nets for grabbing isorla in combat.

Most older IS Mechs use hands so they can do physical attacks, since they do good damage but do not generate heat.

Newer IS Mechs tend to be similar to Clan Mechs in the arms being nothing more than turrets on the sides for the same reasons, OmniMech mounting restrictions, and the ability to flip the arms removes the need for rear facing weapons.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Freeride Forever, on 07 August 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

*some stuff*

Aye, I can indeed assure you and anyone else. Hint: it has nothing to do with whether it'd be nice to have a walking battle machine, it has to do with basic physics and I have explained it at least twice. Search is your friend.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Python46, on 08 August 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

first, the speed of light is 186,000 feet/sec, not 300,000 km/sec.  your estimate is several times the speed of light.

LOL  No.  You're way off and he's right; c is ~300,000 km/s.


P.S.  If you want it in Imperial units, which you seem to, it's 186,000 miles per second, not feet.

(And does anyone else find the editor annoying now?)

Edited by SakuranoSenshi, 08 August 2012 - 01:47 PM.