558 replies to this topic

[FinnMcKool]

wasnt that a Mechwarrior 3 thing?

[M4NTiC0R3X]

"Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems there is no reason not to leg when looking at the incentive."

The cockpit/head of the 'mech will have a much lower armor value, if you can aim for that instead surely you'll survive w/ one leg

[Zarkan]

M4NTiC0R3X, on 10 March 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

"Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems there is no reason not to leg when looking at the incentive."

The cockpit/head of the 'mech will have a much lower armor value, if you can aim for that instead surely you'll survive w/ one leg

Or the rear torso which frankly is probably easier to hit than either the deceptivly fast moving legs and the tiny cockpit.

[Trogusaur]

Really, guys, did any of you actually read the topic? Did I not say that legging was a viable tactic? Furthermore, I fail to see how being legged and lack of skill correlate, considering how the legs possess the biggest hitbox of any part of the 'mech, especially the larger ones. In the previous games, CT coreing was deceptively difficult because of the separated torso hitboxes and lag weapons. Furthermore, you cannot say that it is a simple thing to "hide your legs" behind a hill throughout a battle, you risk having your shot broken up by the hill itself. It seems a bit too easy for most people to respond with "well you suck if people leg you". That really isn't a good excuse, considering how the pilot is not in control of where his enemy aims. The rage responses are a bit irritating.

What I am saying is that since heat sinks can again be placed in the legs again, this gives people even more reason to leg. Why aim to blow off an arm when you can simply leg the enemy and cook them in heat, as well as cripple mobility, and save weapons for salvage? This presents a juicy three-in-one deal that no person will want to pass up. So my question is: why even aim for anything but the legs? The head isn't nearly as easy to hit, and rear torso opportunities are few and far between. Torso shoot, and you run the risk of coreing the 'mech and losing all possibility of salvage. Shoot an arm off, and you will usually lose some of the most valuable weapons for loot. The other possibility is that the enemy stripped armor and weapons from there and used it as a shield, making it pointless to attack that part. But legging? You might have to repair actuators, replace heat sinks, but otherwise, you have a fully intact 'mech for the taking. Even if it takes a few more shots to cripple a 'mech from the excess armor, the return is exponentially more valuable.

I am just afraid that this strategy will be so exploited that virtually everyone will do it, and completely disregard all other criticals. Again, I am not flaming that legging is a dumb tactic used by the weak, I am saying that it may be impossible to win without it.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 10 March 2012 - 07:57 PM.

[Orzorn]

Lord Trogus, on 10 March 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

So my question is: why even aim for anything but the legs?

While your aiming at my completely harmless legs, my extremely harmful autocannons are going to be tearing your center torso and arms a new one while you get stripped of your weapons. You might strip me of the few heat sinks I put in my legs, but you'll likely be armless by the time you do so.

Edited by Orzorn, 10 March 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Stinger]

I like MW4's limping. Assault mechs especially are not hurt by being legged, being that they are slow to begin with. Remember, legs together have more armor than the CT ever does. only with the destruction of 2 legs will a mech be destroyed, or so I hope.

Also, remember, by TT rules, you can only fit 2 heat sinks in each leg. Blowing off a leg will never "cook" another mech. The majority of heat dissapation comes from the heat sinks in the engine, with a maximum of 4 heat sinks knocked out, you will usually have 10 more in the engine. It is not a huge threat.

Edited by Stinger, 10 March 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[Trogusaur]

Stinger, on 10 March 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

I like MW4's limping. Assault mechs especially are not hurt by being legged, being that they are slow to begin with. Remember, legs together have more armor than the CT ever does. only with the destruction of 2 legs will a mech be destroyed, or so I hope.

This. Unfortunately in that game it was generally much more difficult to consistently hit CT than to leg, given the blocky hitbox system. Most alpha strikers would get their kills by two-shotting one of the side torsos and leave the rest unharmed. By this means, it was possible to down an enemy in about 10 seconds with a few well placed shots. Granted, one alpha from a heavy mech was capable of two-shotting any critical on the body, even the legs.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 10 March 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[Raeven]

Lord Trogus, on 09 March 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I was looking through some of the material the devs had mentioned concerning heat sinks, and how placing them in the legs would dissipate heat in water. With this in mind, would that not give warriors even more incentive to leg and incapacitate mechs from the waist down? Personally, I found it annoying to be outright winning an engagement against an enemy with lesser skill, only to be legged and systematically crumpled while having all torsos still green. One may argue that it is a perfectly viable tactic (which it is, I just hate when it is abused like such), but now heat dissipation is also in the crosshairs. Even if a pilot is aware of the legging threat and moves heat sinks accordingly, it will not exempt him from walking around like a gimp for half the match after taking an Arrow IV to the knee.

My fear is that this may give one more reason for pilots to further exploit one of the most exploited tactics in Mechwarrior history. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems there is no reason not to leg when looking at the incentive. Maybe balancing will allow one to place even more armor on the legs, or another alternative will be found, but I could see this being a glaring weakness to any 'mech not fast enough to keep those actuators moving. Sorry if this has already been touched up on, this information came out a while ago and I was unable to find a thread specifically discussing this.

I was an elite Mechwarrior, till I took an Arrow IV to the knee!!

[3Xtr3m3]

The example I gave on the Abrams was an example only.
The point being that if there is a weakness people will exploit it.
And I am fine with that.
There will be times that I will strictly avoid legging, and other times I will be a pitbull who ingested a bottle of ******. I will come after your legs and will not stop until I have had my way with them. Too much fun in this game to deny myself any of it.

[Trogusaur]

3Xtr3m3, on 10 March 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

The example I gave on the Abrams was an example only.
The point being that if there is a weakness people will exploit it.
And I am fine with that.
There will be times that I will strictly avoid legging, and other times I will be a pitbull who ingested a bottle of ******. I will come after your legs and will not stop until I have had my way with them. Too much fun in this game to deny myself any of it.

That is understandable, and if it does become exploitable again, that is how the devs made it. I will accept it, and act accordingly. I won't intentionally leg, but that is my personal preferance. My point is that I would rather it doesn't become exploitable by some means of balancing. The game is still young, and it can be reversed before released to the public. People are entitled to win by any means necessary, I just don't want this to become another example of a jumpsniping/boating episode, where it is extremely hard to get anywhere without it. This is more about game mechanics before release, rather than people abusing something afterwards

Edited by Lord Trogus, 10 March 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[3Xtr3m3]

Here is the thing.
And I wish EVERYONE would read this and reply to this topic accordingly.
Because in this game it is going to be an issue, and I think we should get it out in the open now.

WHICH FACTIONS SUPPORT LEGGING
WHICH FACTIONS WILL DEMAND YOU DO NOT USE LEGGING
WHICH FACTIONS JUST DON'T CARE

I really want to know before I commit to a Faction.

[Elizander]

The best people to leg are the ones who hate being legged.

[Dr Killinger]

Beaker, on 10 March 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

4 :: Light users :: Speed > Armor > ECM > Weapons. Remember this, and remember to ALWAYS test the legs of the gunbag who is hillhumping or poptarting.

I would expect nothing less of my light lance! If the beefy mechs spearheading the assault need some enemy fire support taken out, a flanking legging light mech would do wonders.

You sound like a fine light mechwarrior

[MagicLlama]

My issue is that legging made all of the previous mechwarrior games easy. Torso hits could be spread across all three torsos, head shots are never guaranteed, but the legs are pretty easy targets. I never actively pursued legs in the tabletop version, just slugged it out and let my shots hit where they hit. In the computer games, I shoot the legs and move on. I tried taking out mechs the traditional way, but this was always faster.

That is a fine tactic for battling AIs. For PvP though, how fun is it when you start a limited spawn game and you are defeated almost immediately? All's fair in love and war? Please. We need to think of our opponents having fun as well. A well pitched battle between foes slugging it out or fighting a high speed hit-and-run battle makes both players feel like they have accomplished something great or enjoyed everything until they lost. I just don't think that a tactic that seems to be more concerned with a player's stats and loot is comparable with a tactic that makes both players feel like they gave their all in a battle and let the dice decide.

[BadgerDrool]

So there seems to be a few questions here...
-Is legging bad/a toxic tactics. Lots of people saying no.
-Is legging too easy in Mechwarrior games....seeing some people say yes in regards to some of the games.

If it's a case of total legging needing to be more difficult. Pirana can totally handle that. Letting mechs hop for one . Or more realistically they can add a "third system" to legs, call it crutch.

Once a leg's had it's armor blown out, and all it's juicy innards exploded...it's still a locked up straight piece of metal the Mechwarrior can try to use as a crutch. It ain't gonna move or shift so it'll be awkward slow going...but it's something to lean on while you move the other leg. Letting you do a slow lopping walk.

If they continue fire on what should be something pretty hard to destroy (as it'd be the straight metal core of the leg) then let it be a mech kill....or if they take out the leg acutators in the other leg too.

Plenty of room to leave legging in without making it too easy. Just need to let a destroyed system be crippled but still be relativly intact except the important bits.

Edited by BadgerDrool, 11 March 2012 - 06:21 AM.

[Maris]

For all the flaws of mw4, its legging system is the better one. The earlier mw games are seriously crap and for noobs.

[Killian Axe]

Lord Trogus my brother, legging is not out of place in this game nor are the heat sinks placed in legs. It is simply a part of the game. How would you remove it? Would you have the legs harder to hit? Seems a bit unbalanced to me .. even in MW4 "legs" were more difficult to hit than a CT. Think of my Mad Dog (Khans design) are you really going to waste time legging it while subjecting yourself to a couple of alpha stikes? Your mech wouldn't be standing long enough to accomplish that. I simply don't feel that it was that abused in MW4 and it certainly should remain in the game. With that being said, it is not a tactic I employ as I aim for CT.

Mechwarrior Killian
Clan Smoke Jaguar
6th Jaguar Dragoons

[Lyar]

Being someone who has always loved the faster lighter Mechs, I think you big heavy and assault guys just need to come to terms with that fact that I will go for your legs. Not first off of course, first I'm going to going for your back, then any weapon systems I'm terrified of, and THEN your knee. But your knee is on the list because I'm going to want to run away without being run down by a friggin' Atlas.

[metro]

merge in process........complete

[Lightfoot]

Like I said previuosly, in MW4 I was pleased when someone tried to leg my 'mech because when one leg turned red I just turned and put the good leg in front of it. This was almost always a win for me because the angle to hit the far leg is very small and moving. So perhaps the legs need to have smaller hit boxes to emmulate faster movement?

If you understand tactical facing of your 'mech to shield the highly damaged armor segments you can keep battling for quite a long time. Even against good leggers in faster 'mechs. Especially if you master shooting to the sides with one arm. Just when your opponent closes for the kill, you swing that LBX20 in your 'mech's arm at their center torso and watch them struggle to hit yours.

Also, once leggers figured out that in MW4, the 'mechs center torso was also hit-able from the rear, at the joining section of the two legs, (arse, if 'mechs had one), they never shot for anything but the CT again.