254 replies to this topic

[CCC Dober]

I'm all for it. Chances are we won't see a Warhammer or Marauder anytime soon because of the Unseen/Reseen problem. The Uziel is a good substitute, being faster, more agile and able to mount the same dual PPCs.

[gilliam]

CCC Dober, on 02 August 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

The Uziel is a good substitute, being faster, more agile and able to mount the same dual PPCs.

and 15 tons lighter
===
Can everyone do us all a favor: before asking for a mech or piece of equipment, make sure it's been developed at this point in the timeline first.

Edited by gilliam, 02 August 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[CCC Dober]

Goes without saying that the advantages are a direct result of being a lighter Mech. I think the Uziel scales nicely with the Hammer and the Marauder to compare. At least this one won't be cockblocked by HG, which is a blessing. Since we have no readily available substitutes for both Mechs and (a few others), deviations like the Uziel can be forgiven for the greater good. Unless you are a HG fanboy or cling religiously to the adherence of canon, which would cause people to grab their torches and pitchforks. Watch your back gilliam

[gilliam]

Is there something wrong with adherence to canon?
The Uziel is one of my favorite 'Mechs, but it doesn't come out till around the time of the FedCom civil war. In the mean time, I am thinking of finding another suitable medium and sticking a pair of PPCs a d an SRM6 on that.

I would love to see the Marauder, but HG are ********, they bitched about the reveal trailer Warhammer despite the fact it had been changed a fair amount from what HG (claims to) own the rights to.


P.S. I drive light and fast. I'm the one in YOUR back.
Run run run as fast as you can. You can't catch me. I'm the gingerbread man

[Bishop Steiner]

CCC Dober, on 03 August 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Goes without saying that the advantages are a direct result of being a lighter Mech. I think the Uziel scales nicely with the Hammer and the Marauder to compare. At least this one won't be cockblocked by HG, which is a blessing. Since we have no readily available substitutes for both Mechs and (a few others), deviations like the Uziel can be forgiven for the greater good. Unless you are a HG fanboy or cling religiously to the adherence of canon, which would cause people to grab their torches and pitchforks. Watch your back gilliam

I gotta side with Gilliam on this. So no mech currently is put together like an Uziel. Might be because recovered tech is in it's infancy? I'm pretty sure if someone put their mind to it, they could mod a Vindicator or such to do much the same thing.

But I was just thinking.. as snake-bit as Battletech has been, legally since it's inception, it would be just our luck that Microsoft would sue PGI over use of the Uziel, Hellspawn, MadCat mk II, etc.........

[CCC Dober]

What we are essentially missing are 2 iconic Mechs in the 70-75 ton range, namely the Warhammer and the Marauder. Both of which mount dual PPCs and have an impressive reputation preceeding them. Now tell me, if you stick really close to canon, which Mechs that are currently available have a chance to compete?

If you can't find suitable replacements, then you are free to 'think outside the box', because that's obviously needed with the curveballs we got served by HG. Star League designs might be an alternative if you are really bothered losing the shackles of canon. I'm curious what you are able to come up with.

[gilliam]

Is it the fact they are iconic that matters or the weapons layout that matters?
I love the Marauder, myself, and would love to see it in the game, but I am understanding if they want to sidestep the associated legal issues.
As far as the weapons layout goes, I think we should be able to approximate most designs by altering a 'Mech we do have available.

[Bishop Steiner]

CCC Dober, on 03 August 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

What we are essentially missing are 2 iconic Mechs in the 70-75 ton range, namely the Warhammer and the Marauder. Both of which mount dual PPCs and have an impressive reputation preceeding them. Now tell me, if you stick really close to canon, which Mechs that are currently available have a chance to compete?

If you can't find suitable replacements, then you are free to 'think outside the box', because that's obviously needed with the curveballs we got served by HG. Star League designs might be an alternative if you are really bothered losing the shackles of canon. I'm curious what you are able to come up with.

Honestly? The Thug (in SLDF or 3025 guise) or Hatamoto-Chi, fitss the billing of the Whammy pretty well. Yes it's 80 tons, but I would think that less an issue that dropping 20-25, and at least teh Thug has the same basic ground speed, instead of changing the actual role of the mech, since the Uziel, with better speed and less armor than the Whammy or MAD is an obvious choice of flanker (doubly so since it can jump) whereas the MAD and WHM are front-line bruisers, just like el-Thug-arino.

the 70 ton Cataracht is actually built largely off marauder components, and while it mounts ballistics in stock form, depending on the devs whims, would be another obvious candidate... IF it can mount energy weapons.

Black Knight, again, in either version is another natural.. true the stockon carries one PPC, but it has the energy hardpoints for more.. drop the 2 large lasers, and away you go.

The CPT-K2 does pretty much whatever the others do, but adds the mobility of J.Jets. In fact it does everything the Uziel does, except match speed.

Now mind you, the longing for the WHM and MAD go far beyond payload for me, but since the images I long for are pretty much dead and gone, that is moot.

Anyhow, I'd say ANY of these 5 are far better, and canon applicable mechs for the role than the UZI.

[CCC Dober]

Okay Bishhop, let's go through the shopping list:

The Thug and Hatamoto-Chi are both Assault Mechs that compete primarily with the Awesome. If we go by weight and weapons alone, the Awesome beats both Heavies in question by 5 tons and an additional PPC right out of the box.

The Cataphract is an interesting candidate, but its looks, weapons reputation aren't as formidable. Only the CTF-4L variant can rival with the dual PPC layouts of both Mechs. The basic variant can't.

Black Knight is a serious contender IF we go by the version used in MW4. Other than that, not a single variant sports more than one PPC and Jump Jets are nowhere to be seen either.

On first glance, the Catapult K2 and K2K seem to be dead on the money. Dual (ER)PPCs and Jump Jets. It hurts their reputation a bit that they are essentially recycled Catapults that now fulfil a completely different role. The Hammer and Marauder are more focussed designs and it doesn't help the Cat that they are heavier as well. The ultimate test would be a fight, but the odds don't favor the Cat.


Now back to business: the Uziel-2S is listed as 3050 variant in HMP. Only the 3S variant comes later in 3062, so there is no logical reason that prevents the Uziel from entering the game right now or in a few months.

[gilliam]

According to the Master Unit List, the UZL-2S debuted in 3062 and the ULZ-3S debuted in 3063.
Even if it didn't say that, HMP would still be wrong since the UZS-2 sports ER small and medium lasers and a LB-2X which don't come into being until after the treaty of Tukayyid.

[CCC Dober]

gilliam, on 04 August 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

According to the Master Unit List, the UZL-2S debuted in 3062 and the ULZ-3S debuted in 3063.
Even if it didn't say that, HMP would still be wrong since the UZS-2 sports ER small and medium lasers and a LB-2X which don't come into being until after the treaty of Tukayyid.

Get your facts straight please, there is no ER-Small Laser and no LBX2 on the 3050 variant. The UZL-2S (3050) has the following loadout:

2 PPCs
SRM6
2 MGuns
BAP

Furthermore, not only HMP states it to be 3050, but also twobt.de, trueborn.net, stridersstrikers.com, btsolarisknights etc.
They must be all wrong obviously and google is the enemy.
/sarcasm

[Adridos]

It is not present in the TRO 3050 and sites I use for refference also state it's 3063.

Furthermore, how could it be balanced if it's basically a Thug that flies and is faster? It would WTFpwn any other mech of the timeline.

[CCC Dober]

Well now you know a bit more about it and have a couple more sources on the radar.

As for the Uziel, it is what it is: a downsized, more curvy and more zippy Warhammer. It's more also a lot more fragile as a result of the weight drop. But more importantly, it fills a gap left behind by the departure of the Hammer and the Marauder. Not only that, it gives the Medium Mechs almost the same firepower as the Warhammer. How could you not like this Mech in the first place?

[Bishop Steiner]

CCC Dober, on 04 August 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Okay Bishhop, let's go through the shopping list:

The Thug and Hatamoto-Chi are both Assault Mechs that compete primarily with the Awesome. If we go by weight and weapons alone, the Awesome beats both Heavies in question by 5 tons and an additional PPC right out of the box.

The Cataphract is an interesting candidate, but its looks, weapons reputation aren't as formidable. Only the CTF-4L variant can rival with the dual PPC layouts of both Mechs. The basic variant can't.

Black Knight is a serious contender IF we go by the version used in MW4. Other than that, not a single variant sports more than one PPC and Jump Jets are nowhere to be seen either.

On first glance, the Catapult K2 and K2K seem to be dead on the money. Dual (ER)PPCs and Jump Jets. It hurts their reputation a bit that they are essentially recycled Catapults that now fulfil a completely different role. The Hammer and Marauder are more focussed designs and it doesn't help the Cat that they are heavier as well. The ultimate test would be a fight, but the odds don't favor the Cat.


Now back to business: the Uziel-2S is listed as 3050 variant in HMP. Only the 3S variant comes later in 3062, so there is no logical reason that prevents the Uziel from entering the game right now or in a few months.

Ehhh... so lemme get this straight, because it's an Assauly mech (albeit only 5-10 heavier than the units in question) it is not a good comparison (despite the fact that the Whammy was an early assault mech, before the rigid weight structures were put in play), when it matches in tech level, similar weapon load and speed profile?

Yet a MEDIUM mech weighing 20-25 tons LESS respectively, that is 50% faster, and jump capable (which neither the WHM or MAD are) is a better "match"? Dude I agree with you on a lot of things, but this sounds a lot like fanhood talking here in this instance. I love the UZI, but it is in no way a closer match. 3/4s the armor, jump capable and faster, vs Thugs, BKs, Hatamotos, all of which fill the same mission as a MAD or WHM.

Flanker vs Frontline fighter. Aside from paired PPCs, there is no comparison.

[CCC Dober]

@bishop
I will attribute this to efficiency. If it's smaller and gets the job done at less costs, it's a better bid. Please take note how the Awesome overshadows both Marauder and Warhammer. This fact kinda draws a line in the sand. You go higher than 75 tons, the Awesome sets the benchmark. You go lower than that and the Uziel sets the benchmark at 50 tons. Anything in between would be optimal.

So far I'm missing dedicated dual PPC Mechs that do not rely on variants or chassis or have been shoehorned into a different role (Cataphract, Katapult). The Uziel is really a good candidate, although it is understandably more fragile.

Edited by CCC Dober, 04 August 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

CCC Dober, on 04 August 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

@bishop
I will attribute this to efficiency. If it's smaller and gets the job done at less costs, it's a better bid. Please take note how the Awesome overshadows both Marauder and Warhammer. This fact kinda draws a line in the sand. You go higher than 75 tons, the Awesome sets the benchmark. You go lower than that and the Uziel sets the benchmark at 50 tons. Anything in between would be optimal.

So far I'm missing dedicated dual PPC Mechs that do not rely on variants or chassis or have been shoehorned into a different role (Cataphract, Katapult). The Uziel is really a good candidate, although it is understandably more fragile.

Except at this point, the Awesome is a 3/5 movement Mech, top speed 54 KPH, and only armed with a small laser to defend itself at point blank range. The Marauder and Warhammer are both much more mobile, and armed with far greater weapons variety. The MAD having it's medium lasers in Prime (and the AC/5 makes it close to the Awesome at range), the Whammy having mediums, SRMs and support weapons.

Whereas Thgus, Hatamotos and such match the speed and such.

And technically, the protoype you refer too would be a "variant" too, though far far betterr than the "Stock" version. Yes the Cat is a mod, but it is a canon mod that was relatively common at least with house Kurita, whereas the UZI, no matter how retconned that version is, would be scarcer than hen's teeth. Not trying to argue, I just feel that most of the argumentsw I have heard for the Uziel fail to hold up. I look forward to your next parry, good sir! En garde!

[CCC Dober]

I'll try to keep things separated so the heavier Mechs hopefully do not blot out the Uziel discussion. Bear with me.
The Awesome, the Hammer and the Marauder have several things in common and the most obvious fact is that they rely heavily on their direct fire long range weapons. Going by that logic, the Marauder trumps the Warhammer and is trumped by the Awesome in return.
3PPCs > 2PPCs+AC5 > 2PPCs ... just by looking at what they are primarily meant to do: kill stuff from long range with overwhelming firepower. Admittedly, with doubled armor it isn't overwhelming anymore, but that's beside the point. It's how they were designed to work, so let's stick with that.

Now if you look at the Thug and the Chi, they are meant to go fast and have options with dual PPCs and SRM6s which allows them to choose their range. They will be more deadly the closer they get. Given their top speed, they can do that easy enough. Doing the same with the Awesome, Hammer and Marauder is more risky because they have either less armor or would have to rely heavily on their longrange armament at shorter ranges, because they don't have much else to fall back to. As a result they heat up real fast if they don't stagger their PPC fire. That is not an effective use of the Mechs in question. The Chi and Thug, once in range would simply drown them in SRM6 barrages and could add their PPCs into the mix. At long range however, they would be inferior to the Awesome and roughly on par with the Hammer and Marauder, because each of them has dual PPCs and the Marauder would lead slightly with the AC5 adding its weight.

As for the Uziel, I think there is a bit of confusion involved here. The 2S is stated to be derived from the prototype and is actually not the prototype itself. Whether it is the 'prime' variant or not is unclear. But in absence of an actual prototype it is the best bet so far as it predates the 3S by more than a decade. Again, this is mere deduction based on the information that I have currently available. Curiously enough, if you compare the 2S with the Warhammer, there can be no doubt which Mech has been heavily borrowed from. Imitation as the highest form of flattery one might say, but if you add the HG cockblock into the equation, it is clear that there is more to it. To me the Uziel is a big FU to HG, just like the Mad Cat. I admit to be a bit biased here, but ruining this franchise over Mechs they didn't even create in the first place doesn't sit well with me.

In closing, I want to say that the mere existence of the Uziel and Mad Cat gave the fans something back that was taken away from them. While the Mad Cat is somewhat debatable, it clearly has been influenced by the Marauder, another very popular Mech that has been taken away.

Edited by CCC Dober, 04 August 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Adridos]

CCC Dober, on 04 August 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

In closing, I want to say that the mere existence of the Uziel and Mad Cat gave the fans something back that was taken away from them. While the Mad Cat is somewhat debatable, it clearly has been influenced by the Marauder, another very popular Mech that has been taken away.

FASA made mechs to replace the unseens, for instance:

Dragon -> Shadow Hawk
Thug -> Warhammer
Jaggermech -> Riflemen

All of them have something in common. Their lore and loadout makes it apparent they are here to replace the mising part, that they are better at it (except for the Dragon) and they're a bit heavier.

Uziel is a completely different design which has nothing to do with unseen/reseen, HG, or anything like that.
As for the Mad Cat, it had nothing to do with HG, that's why those basta...s copyied it (and won the court ).

[Brutallica]

BEHOLD THE MIGHTY TIMELINE!!!!

We must not upset the time line...the line of time, this is our life time line!!! YIIARGH!!!

Do NOT speak to the timeline unless spoken to.

Do NOT look at the timeline unless timeline tells you to.

You may not eat or drink, while you await the timeline to progress, IF you want to breathe during this you must pray to the timeline 200 times a day, and sacrifice 4000 editions of mech warrior 4 mercenaries.

[CCC Dober]

@Adridos
If you consider these Mechs replacements, then I would like to point you back to what I posted before. The moment you need to up the tonnage to achieve the same result or better, you are not playing in the same league anymore. In fact, you are admitting defeat already. Weight parity would be ideal. But if you manage to pack the same stuff at less weight, then more power to you. That's not only a replacement, but also more efficient and clearly better. This is what the Uziel represents, a replacement and improvement at the same time. As it so happens, all of the 'replacement' Mechs you listed are heavier, they do not have the same reputation and definitely lack the visuals to compete.

Edited by CCC Dober, 04 August 2012 - 12:14 PM.