89 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

Simon Osis, on 21 February 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

i think everything u said is a great idea for how the clan aspect of the game should work

Thank you trothkin. Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions?

Gremlich Johns, on 21 February 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Portraying a segment of an invading clan may be a good answer to the Khan/saKhan issue and involving a WHOLE clan. Have a GalCom, Cluster, or a Binary/Trinary Commander (keeping in mind that only Bloodnamed Warriors are selected to be GalComs) run the local event as part of the overall invasion campaign as separate and distinct entities. This would eliminate the need for a whole Clan coordinating over the entire route of the invasion. That could be done of course, but there would be no real need until a planetary league starts. The separate Clan elements could talk together and coordinate, but there would be no centralized Clan entity, just sub-units fighting IS dezgra.

Soooo, Research the desired Clan and pick a Canon (or reasonably within Canon) sub-component to portray (not every unit has been represented in the literature, TRO, or TTG). Since the size of the opposing Clan will number in groups of five (I would hope), gaming that way will negate the need for a Khan/saKhan. Each compoinent could possess, I should think, a loremaster and oathmaster at almost every level, the position being assumed by a player who is actually part of an active star. He would fulfill the role in much the same way a Clan LM/OM would and proceed as if there were higher level entities (The DEVS!) providing guidance or such.

Just a rambling thought mates.

Exactly my point. Each sub unit would go on their respective missions. This way each Clan could fight without having constant trials as to who is the "real" Clan XYZ.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 21 February 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

The remaining members of the NBT-HC group playing the Clan Blood Spirit had spoken with CSJ about possibly portraying a cluster or galaxy in their group during the invasion phase of the game. At some point in the game, we would split off as CBS if possible. My suggestion above is a variation of that idea and more in tune with the game, I think..

[Jaroth Corbett]

Well if you & the Jaguars have come to an understanding, who would dispute your claims? Have at it!

[MarauderDeuce]

Also liked this in general - my only thought for possible addition (haven't noticed it in any prior posts) is whether those wishing to claim a blood name should be nominated by an existing holder of a name (or some suitable proxy) before they can compete.

[Gremlich Johns]

MarauderDeuce, on 25 February 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

Also liked this in general - my only thought for possible addition (haven't noticed it in any prior posts) is whether those wishing to claim a blood name should be nominated by an existing holder of a name (or some suitable proxy) before they can compete.

Again, this will probably be taken care of whenever a Planetary League starts, if ever. I do hope that Clan-oriented player teams would figure out a way to earn Bloodnames within this game that is within Canon limits. Those who do not and just take a Bloodname because they want to, are not real Clansmen in their heart and mind, anyway, and are the ones people know just want the tech..

[Jaroth Corbett]

Hold on there. Keep in mind there are NO existing players in this game/universe with Bloodnames. Everything will be new. There will be on average 1000 Bloodnames available per Clan & since the law is that a player is entitled to a Bloodname when a warrior with one dies, it cannot be applicable to our situation. Also there will be no warriors WITH Bloodnames in the first place to nominate those without. If a player goes inactive for some time I supposed he/she could be counted as dead & if he/she has a Bloodname it can be forfeit. We have to work within the reality of our situation.

Whatever accomplishments you achieved before MWO should be null & void, for the simple logical fact that we could never even ratify everyone's claims.

"I am Galaxy Commander Hayden Holliday of Clan Star Adder."

"Oh a Bloodname & a high rank. How do we know you earned these accomplishments? Can anyone verify your name & rank?"

"Nope. We all played MW2/MW3/MW4 & nobody plays anymore. The Clan has gone inactive & our sites & forums have gone down. Guess you are going to have to take my word for it,"

Everyone should start with a clean slate.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 25 February 2012 - 08:50 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

I agree. My forum handle will stay the same, but when I play, I'll just be Gremlich.

[renegade mitchell]

I earned my bloodname while a part of Clan Hells Horses in MW4. Eventually became saKhan. I agree we all start with a clean slate once MWO launches.

My opinion is player run clans should decide and do their trials for bloodnames, ranks, etc... Not something that should be decided by an NPC clan the player clans are a part of. Should be done inhouse.

Edited by Renegade Mitchell, 25 February 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Gremlich Johns, on 25 February 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

I agree. My forum handle will stay the same, but when I play, I'll just be Gremlich.

Indeed. I only added Winson to my handle because at the time I registered on this forum, I was in a Clan Wolf but I never earned the Bloodname, When I started with Seth & his guys my character's given name was Kalon & I wanted to go for the Malthus Bloodname however they went inactive before I could achieve this & I moved on. In fact I am actually Jaroth Corbett because I signed on with a Smoke Jaguar unit who are still active in MW4 & defeated two others who laid claim to a Bloodname.

The fact is, that is MW4 & this is a whole new game so past titles/ranks/honors/positions etc. (no matter how honorably or gloriously won) should have no bearing here.



After reading Gremlichs posts, I am willing to consider having NPCs hold the rank of Khan & saKhan & even have a NPC be Khan with a player being saKhan, I maintain that I do NOT want a human in charge with complete control of the Clan but due to the posts I have read & seeing as this is a draft written with the expectation of entertaining suggestions, I am willing to be flexible to a certain extent,

I also am rethinking the policy of mechs being unlocked for the Clans. I now believe ALL light mechs should be unlocked upon successful completion of a ToP. This means that a warrior has access to 35 AP & can unlock as light as a Fire Moth (Dasher) @ 20 tons or as heavy as an Adder (Puma) @ 35 tons.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 26 February 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Jack Gallows]

Part 1. Spoilers to avoid appearing spammy. Will update as I digest the rest of the thread and address other ideas/issues. Remember, these are just my opinions and I in know what want to diminish someone elses, or I'd have no leg to stand on. You asked for feedback, and this just gives you a bit of info should you want another viewpoint to have things to consider for your own sake. A good addition to your post, Jaroth, might be how you see the Free to play aspect interact with the Clans, what might be available for purchase/etc, and what you think should NOT be able to be bought?

Spoiler

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

1. Clans should be open to ALL players.

Good to go here, pretty sure everyone agrees.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

2. Choosing to go Clan comes at a certain stage in your character's career. At a certain level you choose to slide over or go up. For EXAMPLE (I am no dev & I know some people halfway read a post then run with it) if the rule is, let us say at Level 26 you have unlocked the Clans you can either stay as an IS pilot & go up one level to 27 or maybe even two levels to 28 as a bonus for staying IS ( I think this is how it is done in Star Trek: Online where after reaching a certain level, you can choose to stay as a Federation player or become Klingon.)

OR

slide over to the Clans but remain at level 26. Your career as a clan pilot begins at Level 26.

These two aren't bad ideas, basically have spots where you'd get turned into a bonsdman then have to fight to obtain your status as a warrior into your chosen Clan in one example and the other just opens. Not sure I'd personally care for getting a bonus for staying IS in this situation, I don't need the free levels, since Clanners are just jumping ship because it's really the faction they feel fits them the best.

Another alternative would be to have a clean slate. The Clan pilot option unlocks on a patch when the invasion hits (or just before so people can get set up/acquainted with their machines/groups,) and you start at lv 1 or so and work your way up. This may or may not be modified later by Trials/etc. Bonus for staying IS, with Clans offering superior tech. I don't really see the need to be given free rank/levels as a Clan pilot, every pilot regardless of faction should have to start from square one.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

3. The first player to become a Clan pilot for a clan does NOT become the Khan. Let us face it, there are a lot of unskilled childish idiots who start a clan, take the title of Khan & rule stupidly with absolutely no sense of what they are doing. In fact I think NO player should be able to rise to Khan or saKhan; those positions should be held by two devs. Four original invading clans means eight devs. They do not even have to fight, as normally most Khans do not see action on the field often. If they do, power to them, but it is not a requirement. They are there as admins, managing the day to day affairs of their respective Clans. They issue orders & updates to their subordinates.

Being able to obtain a higher rank probably should be availible, but might be a good idea to lock Khan out, just like the IS forces can't obtain their highest rank (because, well we all know who's khan of what Clan at these times/etc.) Khan's will most likely be NPC's, as they should be for all major identities in the MW:O world. So I agree with this, no Khan from the game (though obviously player driven groups will have their own possibly.)

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

4. Once a player chooses to go Clan, he/she enters "sibko" mode until passing their Trial of Position.

Sibko mode should just be instant action for the Clans, against other Clan players. It should not be required to pass a Trial to be able to fight with your Clan or go out and fight the IS. In lore, yeah, in MW:O I don't think it's a good idea. While it's unfortunate for some aspects of both Clan and IS, you're going to have an audience from the hardcore to the not so hardcore, and some things need to be a bit more open then how strict Clan (or parts of IS) rules tend to be.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

use the Steel Viper approach & have the cadets fight each other.
In either scenario, a kill grants the cadet, warrior status & placement within the Touman.

If a Trial does happen, using the Steel Viper approach is probably the best way of handling it within the confines of MW:O. That's mostly because we haven't heard really how they're going to handle NPC pilots, or if they'll have any at all. The big pitfall to this part of the idea however, is what happens when someone doesn't get a kill due to random factors, like a headshot against them or something else? Are you going to have to sit on your thumbs and do another match? I know in actual Clan lore, you've weaded out the unworthy, but I think it's a bit uneeded at this point for this aspect.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

5. After successfully completing their Trial, the cadet is placed in the touman as an active warrior. At this point that particular Clan only has an Alpha Galaxy & players will be funneled into different sub units within Alpha. If Alpha becomes full, ONLY at that point will Beta become unlocked etc. etc. From the time a sub unit becomes active, their reputation goes live. So obviously the first set of people coming into the Clan will be going into Alpha but as I suggested once Alpha becomes full, other units can be opened so naturally, Beta would be next. So suppose at some point in the game, a particular Clan has 3 Galaxies & from how the players perform, Beta Galaxy is the most elite. Warriors from Alpha & Charlie Galaxies can apply to transfer to Beta. However this will not be done via paperwork. This will be done via a Trial. I will restrict this to the same rank however. A Mechwarrior can challenge a Mechwarrior, a Star Commander can challenge a Star Commander etc. etc. So in keeping with the Clan mentality, you have to fight to get your spot & fight to keep it. So someone of the same rank can challenge your legitimacy of being in a certain unit or even sub unit. If a specific sub-unit performs well & they are being recognized for their talent the same rules apply.

You'll probably cringe at this, but it should act like how the IS ranks work. You get XP, XP gets you rank. Rank gives you options to select certain units/etc to gain their paint scheme/bonuses. There should be a challenge type of trial where you can call out another person, but it shouldn't have effect on your in game standing, a lot of this stuff is way way way open to abuse.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

I want it to not just be Clan by the looks of it but by the feel. I want you to become jealous of your brothers & sisters pushing each other & yourself to do better

Which can be fun, but what about the rest of the people playing Clans that aren't in it for the uber hardcore aspect? Should they just leave because you don't like how they want to have fun....this remains a video game and not an actual clan experiment.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

have the IS barbarians tremble at the sight of us:

That's not happening, no matter how much RP you spit out.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

6. As a Clan mechwarrior you have access to light mechs only with a spendable currency I call Access Points.

Should have a pool of 'mechs to choose from but is NOT limited to lights. Clans at the start and later need to be diverse so they can fill multiple roles from the get go, and people shouldn't be initialy locked out of a chassis they may want because it's not a light 'mech. It can either be a set number of 'mechs with a few per weight class, or have as you said a kind of points. These points are one time use on the beginning of said Clan character for them to select their 'mech. Omnimechs cost more points then second line, and higher weight class might as well. Left over points either grants a small XP boost or in game cash/whatever resource the Clans end up using, or allow the modification of an Omnimech with said points.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

7. Players will get promoted one rank at a time. So it will go Mechwarrior=>Star Commander=>Star Captain=>Star Colonel=>Galaxy Commander. Now getting back to the lore, by the time you reached the Star Captain rank, you should have participated in a Trial of Bloodright & won your Bloodname. Warriors without a Bloodname will NOT be allowed to go higher than Star Captain. On average there should forty Bloodnames available per Clan (obviously some will be more & some will be less).

This is a bit tricky depending on how they handle bloodnames (which I'll address below.) Obviously Trials of Position can't work as they do in lore and auto grant rank, but I also think rank shouldn't be tied to having a bloodname. Rank should only dictacte if you're allowed to go for a Bloodname or not. ToP might be a good way to get bonus XP towards your next rank (which, the XP would need to be much higher per rank since the IS has many more ranks then the Clan player will have available,) but with any system that uses player versus player, you have to be careful of direct abuse unless your oponents are completely random. Could have it so you can host your own premade Trials, but they wouldn't have any effect on the in game xp/etc so players can still do their own RP/Clan based business.

Continued in next post, something on the forum is preventing me from posting the full thing...

Edited by Jack Gallows, 26 February 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[Jack Gallows]

Part 2. Spoilers to avoid appearing spammy.

Spoiler

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

My recommendation regarding Bloodnames can be found here:

http://mwomercs.com/...6241#entry96241

Why will attaining a Bloodname be so important? Well for one, the honor it bestows speaks volumes about your character. It allows you to pursue higher ranks but more importantly, gaining a Bloodname whether you are as low as a Mechwarrior or as high as a Star Captain, will give you access to & the ability to vote on, the Clan Council. The Clan Council votes on all matters regarding the Clan whether major or minor.

There should be more then 25 slots per bloodname. This part of the lore has to deviate for the sake of the game. The way it is now will only breed the bad kind of elitism and make playing in a Clan only fun for a scant handful of individuals which in time will definitely damage the game itself. Having it be used to vote on specific matters should remain, as it makes it fun and important, and gives the base Clanner a kind of waiting period while they get used to their Clan and the game (cause some people are going to start as Clan after the invasion starts, who are new to MW:O.) There's going to be a lot of people who want X bloodname over Y because it's what they like, having 25 people sitting in them with no way to dislodge can be a buzzkill, since no one dies. I'm not sure I like the inactivity solution.

There should be fun trials for it, but there's going to be a LOT of players in MW:O, and a LOT of people playing the few invading Clans. 25 per bloodname isn't going to cut it, and the problem is only going to grow as the game progresses. There's also going to be that free to play aspect that rears it's ugly head, and as much as other Clanners may not like it, buying a bloodname might be something on the menu. You might have certain bloodnames that aren't availible till a certain rank (though this feels artifical way of locking out how many Kerensky's are going to be running around) but in the long run it's really something that isn't going to matter in the actual player run leagues. Example, Clanner A wants the Jorgensson bloodname, and wins it in MW:O. He's now Joebob Jorgensson in game, but a player run league/group doesn't have to recognize it.

It's one of those things that's probably going to have to be semi community based if you want a more realistic Clan experience.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

8. As I stated earlier, my view is that NO player should be Khan or saKhan of a Clan. That means that the highest rank you can achieve will be Galaxy Commander. (the Oathmaster & Loremaster will be decided by a vote of the Clan Council) This means that getting Galaxy Commander should be at the highest levels. I also want to emphasize that this is a Clan which means that when you achieve whatever goal you set for yourself, you cannot then just rest on your laurels.

All newly appointed officers should remain unchallenged for a month. I think that is sufficient time to ascertain how somebody is performing. If it is believed that they are not performing as well as they could & it is to the detriment of the Clan, an IMMEDIATE subordinate can challenge them to a Trial of Possession for the rank. That means that a Mechwarrior CANNOT challenge a Galaxy Commander for his rank, he can only challenge HIS Star Commander. If the subordinate wins, then the ranks, roles & responsibilities are reversed.

I'll say again that player directed Trials should have no bearing on the internal game, due to possible abuse and corruption. Again something I think will need to be tackled outside the confines of the game itself.

Jaroth Winson, on 14 February 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

9. Fighting as a Clan warrior affords you better training & tech however there are limitations.

Clan warriors begin with a certain number of pilots at their disposal. A batchall is issued. Once answered, the warriors then bid amongst themselves to determine who will be doing the actual fighting. A Clan warrior engages one enemy mech at a time. If however, another mech fires upon him he is free to return fire. A Clan Warrior will not assist another warrior who is engaging an enemy unless that enemy fired on him to begin with.

CoffiNail's "claim button" idea could work here:

http://mwomercs.com/...6334#entry46334

The claim button is a pretty awesome idea, and I like the idea of giving bonuses to Clan pilots who try to follow Clan rules in combat to the best of their abilities, regardless of how the IS might exploit/etc. I personally don't think you're going to get many IS players that are going to play the batchall game (I'm not, I'm not paring down my group for any reason,) but that's still a fun aspect of Clans that can be put in for those that do wish to use it.

I also expect most players to break the rules of Zellbrigen on the IS side at the drop of a hat because of how we'll have played up to that point, and how the game might play. It's going to be tough for Clanners to abide by it, but that'll probably the fun aspect of it.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 26 February 2012 - 08:07 AM.

[Outlaw2]

Honestly, its seems like all this is waaaay too entirely based on BT's lore RP fluff, and not on a workable and functional system for players.

First a build a rock solid community/faction system, then dress if up with RP fluff and terminologies.

Don't try to build a system around the lore fluff. It'll feel like a disjointed mess to the players....especially to the players that could care less about RP and lore.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 27 February 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[renegade mitchell]

Gremlich Johns, on 25 February 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Again, this will probably be taken care of whenever a Planetary League starts, if ever. I do hope that Clan-oriented player teams would figure out a way to earn Bloodnames within this game that is within Canon limits. Those who do not and just take a Bloodname because they want to, are not real Clansmen in their heart and mind, anyway, and are the ones people know just want the tech..

Though I do wish to see planetary leagues form from MWO, it does not seem like it will happen anytime soon after launch. A dev posted back in November stating they won't allow third parties to come in and form any type leagues.

[Gremlich Johns]

Renegade Mitchell, on 27 February 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Though I do wish to see planetary leagues form from MWO, it does not seem like it will happen anytime soon after launch. A dev posted back in November stating they won't allow third parties to come in and form any type leagues.

yea, I am not holding my breath.

[BlackFlag]

I posted my own suggestion on how clans should work. Jaroth's plans are more detailed and well thought out than mine. I disagree on a few points, but I support his plan.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Tell me what you disagree with. I am all for ideas/suggestions/constructive criticism.

[Gremlich Johns]

Jaroth Winson, on 06 March 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Tell me what you disagree with. I am all for ideas/suggestions/constructive criticism.

Properly couched, there are no clan-oriented players who will gainsay a good idea or disagreement. It is all towards creating something that will work for all interested players.

[LackofCertainty]

Jack Gallows two nicely detailed posts cover my thoughts on the issue pretty much perfectly. Of special emphasis, I want to mention again, that making clan players all start in light mechs and not be able to use the higher tiers without ranking up in the clan is a totally bogus idea when the devs are constantly trying to prop up the "bigger is not better" sign. What do you do when you have less skilled clan players who enjoy piloting assault mechs most? You're basically just giving them a big old middle finger. What if the higher ranked people in clan prefer playing light mechs? You'd basically be forcing them to play the heavier chassis to fill out their teams, and in turn hurt their enjoyment.


Also, Outlaw's post in the short sum up of my thoughts for super-detailed rp-forced systems in MWO in general. Most likely I expect the Clan stuff to basically be the IS stuff with a different skin. The differences will come in the mechs they have access to and the numbers they play with. (I'm expecting IS vs. Clan matches to be 12 vs. 10)

I'm sure they'll sprinkle some lore flavor ontop of the clan stuff, but I'm almost certain they're not going to turn it into a super rp based simulation. If you want to rp you're certainly welcome to do that in your player-made clan group, but forcing that sort of game down the throats of the average player wouldn't accomplish much. Sure you might awaken the Clan rp spirit inside a couple of them, but most are just going to be turned off.

[Bouncin]

Any Ideas about how to bring in the Warden/Crusader aspect, and how it would affect the various players in-game?

[Jaroth Corbett]

LackofCertainty, on 06 March 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Jack Gallows two nicely detailed posts cover my thoughts on the issue pretty much perfectly. Of special emphasis, I want to mention again, that making clan players all start in light mechs and not be able to use the higher tiers without ranking up in the clan is a totally bogus idea when the devs are constantly trying to prop up the "bigger is not better" sign. What do you do when you have less skilled clan players who enjoy piloting assault mechs most? You're basically just giving them a big old middle finger. What if the higher ranked people in clan prefer playing light mechs? You'd basically be forcing them to play the heavier chassis to fill out their teams, and in turn hurt their enjoyment.

Also, Outlaw's post in the short sum up of my thoughts for super-detailed rp-forced systems in MWO in general. Most likely I expect the Clan stuff to basically be the IS stuff with a different skin. The differences will come in the mechs they have access to and the numbers they play with. (I'm expecting IS vs. Clan matches to be 12 vs. 10)

I'm sure they'll sprinkle some lore flavor ontop of the clan stuff, but I'm almost certain they're not going to turn it into a super rp based simulation. If you want to rp you're certainly welcome to do that in your player-made clan group, but forcing that sort of game down the throats of the average player wouldn't accomplish much. Sure you might awaken the Clan rp spirit inside a couple of them, but most are just going to be turned off.

I know full well there are players who prefer all types of weights & I know in the canon high ranking Clan warriors varied in their preference as well, from the assault mech to a medium. As the Clans function differently from the IS in terms of economy, so to must the game reflect this. All you need to do to unlock higher weight mechs, according to my proposal, would be to gain the necessary Access Points, which I will now call Honor Points thanks to BlackFlag. This system would reward a warrior who fights a good deal & fights honorably to boot. The more you fight & the more honorably you do so, entitles you to more Honor Points that you can choose what mechs to unlock. You do not like the idea, fine that is your view & I respect it. Perhaps you can make your own thread detailing what you would like to see. Also by your own words PGI is already giving us Clan players the middle finger as we have to start the game as an IS pilot. Why the hell would I want to play as an IS pilot after enduring MW3, MW3:PM, MW4:V, MW4:BK & MW4:M? Well guess what, I do not like it but I have no choice in the matter so I have to suck it up & go along until I can play as a Clansman.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 06 March 2012 - 09:19 PM.