188 replies to this topic

[Aegis Kleais]

verybad, on 02 March 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

It's not nitpicking. If you want to act like clan warriors, then you can't use contractions, or do you just want to use the parts you like (like their OP tech) and Tubebred Kerensky Babes) If you want to be cloer, then you should be a lone wolf.. Any btech fan knows the clans truly hate mercs, killing them on the battlefield after capture isn't uncommon (unless you're a Kell), they're regarded as pirates.

Honestly, if you're not going to take the bad with the good, then yeah, you like them because they're overpowered.

It is nitpicking. Don't complain that they're overpowered. It is advanced technology; and as such it is more effective than older technology. If you choose to use old tech, do so, but don't complain about it. And don't complain about others who don't choose the old tech.

[CoffiNail]

Aegis Kleais™, on 02 March 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

It is nitpicking. Don't complain that they're overpowered. It is advanced technology; and as such it is more effective than older technology. If you choose to use old tech, do so, but don't complain about it. And don't complain about others who don't choose the old tech.

5 contractions... See... like a labour caste shipper.

[Aegis Kleais]

CoffiNail, on 02 March 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Aegis, he has got you there, you use contractions like a labour caste shipper. Look through my posts... you may find 1 or 2 contractions. They will probably be quotes

I was just messing with him, though; I don't care to roleplay as a Clanner. I will play with IS Tech for as long as I'm forced to, then I'll move over to my favorite chassis when it's added.

If someone chooses to use IS Tech at that point, they have no right to complain (even though yes, I realize the tech I'm using is more powerful pound for pound) I have respect for someone who uses IS Tech when Clan Tech is out, but not if they continually counterpoint with "Well you won cause your stuff is OP".

To me, it's not OP, it's just better.

And yeah, I use ton's of contractions, which roleplaying Clanners don't. But to not use them makes me want to beat myself up because of how snooty it makes me sound.

p.s. If the game ends up supporting the ability to join a clan and to be bound by things like Zellbrigen, Hegira, etc. I'd play along there. I'm just not going so far as to talk in a different manner. I can't help put picture kids playing D&D saying "Forsooth, verily and fare thee well". *shudders*

[Lycan]

GuntherK, on 01 March 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Yeah, yeah,.. sure sure...

I am so gonna sneak behind an Atlas with my Urbanmech and scream... BOOM AC20 HEADSHOT

At which time you realize the PGI DID implement rear weapon arcs and the Atlas, in a last act of defiance, triggers the twin Med Lasers and they punch through the armor on the Urbies head . . .

(That actually happened to me once. Thought I was a goner when I made a tactical blunder and a friend of mine jumped into my rear arc. Started swearing till I realized I had twin Med Pulse Lasers mounted back there AND got lucky with twin Head/Cockpit hits. )

Semyon Drakon, on 01 March 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

One thing that is giving lie to the idea of rearward firing weapons is that the HUG isn't the 360 degree circle vision strip depicted in canon. remember mech HUD's were a holographic image that concentrated the entire 360 view into a 180 degree strip in front of the mechwarrior. this doesn't appear to be the case here. Otherwise when the mechwarrior turned his head the vision strip would have shown the scene to the right and down of the mech.

I don't think the VR system, with the 360 degree vision you're talking about came about for a while.

I seem to recall reading about it in one of the later TROs . .

It was my understanding that the Mechwarrior uses the cockpit glass to view what was in front of him and relied on camera relays to see what was to his side and his Six.

Canniballistic, on 02 March 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

One:
"AS7-K3 - A modification of the K2, the K3 removed the two Streak SRM-6 launchers and replaced them with three jump jets and a Streak SRM-4 launcher, giving the AS7-K3 incredible maneuverability." ~Sarna.net

Couldnt help myself

There's an Atlas out there with a Walk of 3? ::blinks:: I didn't know of any that had more than a 2 . . . .

Although that does remind me of another funny story when my friends and I first started playing TT Battletech, we somehow skipped over the fact that you could only have as much jump movement as you could walking movement . . ::coughcough:: Ever see a 100 ton mech jump 7 Hexes for a DFA?

[Pvt Dancer]

If they bring in Clan tech to the game, it has to be balanced. I am sorry, but 'Its not OP, it's just better.' is not a valid arguement concerning a game. Just because FASA failed in a ADD-riddled attempt to keep the game alive a year or two longer does not mean it was the 'right' move. Obviously it wasn't, as the introduction of the Clans did not 'save' FASA or Battletech.

And now that I have feed the trolls...

Any Dev comment on rear firing weapontry?

[Solis Obscuri]

Bryan Ekman, on 01 March 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

1 - Is Heading and a secondary torso twitst indicator (triangle). Objectives, enemies, and friendlies slide across here as well.

2 - weapon group status (1-6)

7 - is the mini-map.


Since spoilers are very abused thanks to Paul. Warning this is a real spoiler.

Spoiler

There are two reticules - arms and torso.

Very cool - the HUD is looking really functional, as well as really sharp!

Bryan Ekman, on 01 March 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

The weapon groups are by cursor.

Huh... not quite following this. I see the "123456" in the weapons list, I assumed those were groups one-six...

Arnold Carns, on 01 March 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

to A: Don't measure the things to MW4! TTs weapons could only fire once in 10 seconds. If you more want to go by Solaris VII 'Mech Duel Rules, there is the M-Lasers delay (1 turn*) only half than that of the LRMs (2 turns*). You may could fire M-Lasers twice as much as the LRMs, but you also build up a lot of heat. (*Solaris VII has gameturns equal to 2,5 seconds)

How was heat tracked in the Solaris VII rules?

Grave, on 01 March 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

On the contrary...The clans engage in this "duelist" mentality as much as humanly possible. Spheroids exploit that tendency at their own risk - because breaking zellbringen unleashes even worse tactical odds on their inferior tech base when Clans start group firing on money bandits and mewling surat House troops. Clans are about honor first during the early years of the Clan invasion and that policy doesn't really change until Operation Bulldog or later.

Eh.... when they aren't just engaging in outright genocide. Which they do to a degree unthinkable to any of the I.S. great houses!

Also, I kinda question the "disadvantage" of going in with fewer, but much more advanced, 'mechs as a result of a zellbriggen batchall...

verybad, on 01 March 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

There was quite a bit of evidence of Nicholas Kerensky being nuttier than a bird feeder.

The Clans wound up following the wrong Kerensky. Problem with worshipping legends...

verybad, on 01 March 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

I can't wait for them to be introduced into the game, I'm gonna beat them with IS tech, and listen to Clan wannabe's whing about surat, or chreating, or legging, or not standing still in front of their supermechs while they blow me up.

Ugh... I can hear the QQ already.

Grave, on 01 March 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Your definition of a real war is scorched earth tactics; had the Clans fought like that they'd have experienced the same problems the Sphere did and never maintained a technological edge, even if that edge ended up failing them in the end.

Had the I.S. not had the Toyama-ists actively destroying and hoarding all Star League era technology, while fueling destructive wars to keep the I.S. weak and divided, the Clans wouldn't have had much of an edge returning.

Still not sure how they managed to develop so much advanced weapons tech within 20 years of migration to the Pentagon Worlds, what with all the collapse of society + worshipping of loonyboy + genocide and torture + coming up with funny animal names, etc, etc...

Grave, on 01 March 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

If Clan implementation is anything like balanced, I can't wait to be the one dousing folks like you with an ERPPC or four from the cockpit of my Warhawk

I'm having a hard time envisioning much about the Clans as "balanced".

Using PPCs that shoot twice as far for 150% damage with the freedom of 44 effective heatsinks kind of demonstrates that principle...

Aegis Kleais™, on 02 March 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

I was just messing with him, though; I don't care to roleplay as a Clanner. I will play with IS Tech for as long as I'm forced to, then I'll move over to my favorite chassis when it's added.

If someone chooses to use IS Tech at that point, they have no right to complain (even though yes, I realize the tech I'm using is more powerful pound for pound) I have respect for someone who uses IS Tech when Clan Tech is out, but not if they continually counterpoint with "Well you won cause your stuff is OP".

To me, it's not OP, it's just better.

Well, OP isn't OP if you plan to use OP exclusively.

But it certainly is if you don't.

I'm still wondering how they plan to bring Clantech in-game without breaking combat balance, but a lot remains to be seen still...

[TheRulesLawyer]

Aegis Kleais™, on 02 March 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

To me, it's not OP, it's just better.

LoL. That's sort of the definition of OP.

[Arnold Carns]

Solis Obscuri, on 02 March 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

How was heat tracked in the Solaris VII rules?

The heat values of Solaris VII are four times of them of the TT. Just a few examples:

PPC: Heat [40] Damage [10] Delay [3]
Large Laser: Heat [32] Damage [8] Delay [2]
Medium Laser: Heat [12] Damage [5] Delay [1]

Delay is the number of Game Turns a pilot has to wait before he can fire that weapon savely again.
As an optional rule you could override delay, but at some risks.
Drawback for this is the build up of regular heat plus additional heat (the regular Heat Value multiplied by the delay remaining) and a chance to ruin the weapon. Every time the weapon is prematurely fired, the MechWarrior has to make an Override Roll equal 2 + (number of Delay remaing) + 1 for each time the weapon has been prematurely fired. If the roll fails, the weapon has been destroyed. Ballistic or Missile Weapons required also an additional Override Roll of 6+ to avoid an ammo explosion.
The Heat scale is also 4 times the TT Heatscale, with a maximum at 120 (instead 30) with adapted modifiers for movement, firing, ammo explosion and shutdown.
Acting careless will turn your Mech most likely into a useless wrecked oven.

Edited by Arnold Carns, 03 March 2012 - 12:02 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

TheRulesLawyer, on 02 March 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

LoL. That's sort of the definition of OP.

Maybe for you. To me, technology can be better than old technology, and that's just how it is. But in the event that the developers find that the difference in technology proves to be TOO overwhelming, then the tech is OP, and needs adjustments. "OP" indicates that something just isn't better, but so much so to a degree that it throws the game balance out of whack. Clan tech can be implemented alongside and, true to canon, be superior to it, without it being OP.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Aegis Kleais™, on 03 March 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

Maybe for you. To me, technology can be better than old technology, and that's just how it is. But in the event that the developers find that the difference in technology proves to be TOO overwhelming, then the tech is OP, and needs adjustments. "OP" indicates that something just isn't better, but so much so to a degree that it throws the game balance out of whack. Clan tech can be implemented alongside and, true to canon, be superior to it, without it being OP.

Whatever. I hear the same thing all the time from other people defending why their favorite one shot kill weapon doesn't need nerfed. You'll never convince me that Clan tech is somehow balanced with IS tech. Especially where we are in the timeline. Its just something we'll have to disagree on.

Edited by TheRulesLawyer, 04 March 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Aegis Kleais™, on 04 March 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

What Clan Tech weapon reliably one-shot kills players? I think you might be confusing the issue here.

Clan Tech is better than IS Tech. So if it does 20% more damage and generates 15% less heat, that is just the advancement that the technology is providing.

However I don't want something to be OP. If PGI implements clan tech and finds that one weapon is some kind of super weapon or has statistics that (despite the differences between Clan and IS tech, is too high, thus making it 'OP') then I would want that fixed.

I wasn't talking one shot kills in BTU, but in other FPS. OP discussions aren't unique to MWO. Its pretty much always the same denials.

You're really making my point for me. Clan tech is outright better. There is no downside to using it. QED it is OP. At least in a normal FPS the guys using rocket launchers can claim "but it has low ammo,but moves really slow, but its inaccurate, but its slow to aim" Clan tech would be like giving a guy a SAW that fires rockets in a normal FPS and trying to convince people that its somehow fair.

Like I said, we're probably just going to have to disagree here.

[TheRulesLawyer]

AK, I would just say that you're mistaken on the definition of OP as most people use it. That's the point.

[GDL Irishwarrior]

Aegis Kleais™, on 04 March 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Just
I'm still not sure what your point is.

Just because something is better does not mean it's OP. OP means it is OVER-powered. Clan tech is better than IS, this is the nature of the beast. iPhone 4 is better than iPhone 3. If PGI makes the Clan tech so powerful to the point where the community feels it is more powerful than what it seemed to be like in canon, then it would be OP, and need adjustments to bring it back down into perspective. I guess the latter part of this is the basis of my point.

If we agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. I'm just not sure I've determined we're in agreement or if I and clearly seeing the point you're making.

The problem is, even in canon it was OP. Let's run down the list (Keeping in mind that there are likely some things I forgot):

• Internal structure for half the weight
  
• Engine for half the weight
  
• Armor for about 20% less weight
  
• All weapons and equipment weigh less and take up less critical spaces
  
• All weapons do more damage and generate less heat than IS counterparts
  
• Availability of extended range energy weaponry, which do even more damage and have extremely long ranges.
  
• Availability of lasers (Pulse lasers) that auto-target once fired to concentrate damage on one area, as well as doing more damage.
  
• Long Range Missiles are armed the instant they launch, so there is no minimum range
  
• A new type of short range missile (Streak) that literally CANNOT miss
  
• Heat sinks with twice the efficiency for the same weight.
  
• Autocannons which are able to fire two rounds per shot, effectively doubling their damage with every shot. This comes at the cost of running through ammunition quite quickly, but the fact that they weigh less than standard autocannons of the same size can be used to compensate for this. (Clan Ultra AC/10 weighs 10 tons, versus a standard IS AC/10's 12 tons)
  
• Autocannons which are able to fire shotgun-type rounds, which disarm targets with alarming regularity and make aiming a moot point. They also produce critical hits on a regular basis. Oh, and they, too, weigh less than standard autocannons (Same as the Ultra autocannon - the LB 10-X AC/10 is 10 tons, versus the standard AC/10's 12 tons).
  
• A new type of ballistic weapon (Gauss Rifle) that generates almost no heat, has extremely long range, and does very high damage
  
• Weightless equipment (CASE) that makes ammunition explosions much *Edit* Why did I say "MORE dangerous"? more less dangerous and takes up no critical slots
  
• *Edit #2 - can't believe I forgot this little COMPLETELY non-OP gem* A new type of BattleMech/weapon and equipment attachment system that allows 'Mechs to be completely reconfigured at almost no cost in resources or time.

Now, the only things here which you can really argue have big disadvantages are the lighter engine, internal structure, and armor - they are bulky, and take up extra critical spaces. The engine also extends into the side torsos, making it easier to destroy. However, the saved weight and special armor allows you to easily max out your protection, greatly reducing the danger to your engine. As far as the lost critical spaces go, the only time I've ever had space-related trouble mounting all the weapons, equipment, and ammunition I wanted while using ALL of those weight-saving options was if I was loading up one of the heavier assault 'Mechs.

Edited by GDL Irishwarrior, 04 March 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I have a feeling that they may be intending to use numbers as a "balance" ie 5 Clan v 8 IS. Also we may have combined arms available as NPC by then. At the very least being able to use artillery and air strikes which the clans may not?

[Pvt Dancer]

Aegis... listen. I will /try/ to end this... for now.

What is the 'balancing factor for the clans OP tech? The fact that the players are suppose to...
A) Underbid their tonnage /extensivily/
Follow rules of engagement on the battlefield that was not benificial to them

This, above, will never happen. You know why? Because the game is not built with any limitations to enforce these measures. It is 16 vs 16, probably equal tonnage created by an artificial match-maker. No one is going to sit there and go in with 5 mechs vs 16, or be able to 'bid tonnage' against anyone else.

Also, it is fine and dandy for fluff, but guess what. YOUR NOT A CLANNER. Your a person, a human being and whatever notions of grandure some writer put in your head on how they should act and how you precieve them to act will never match up with how the author precieved them. People are going to 'over bid' and quote some BS because Clan X did it on planet X in book X... and look, they really didn't get punished for it... nothing really bad happened... in fact, they discovered it was to their advantage.

You can't trust people that you don't know to enforce rules they really don't care to follow. Period.

Clan mechs and technology /are/ over powered to standard tech and Star league tech, and we have to assume, based on the mechs released and the time frame that standard tech is the basic tech we are playing with. We have to assume that the 'match maker' is somewhat static and we have to assume that there are no limits to a person's tactics in a actual match.

This makes Clan mechs over powered and unbalanced the game as we have to /assume/ it exists... so thus, unless they start us out with Star league Tech that is nearly balanced to clan tech, and allow IS players to use clan tech in some way (through RL money or in game money) to make 16 vs 16 matchs possible and fun for the IS side...aka, gives them a damn chance.

Done...

[Dr Killinger]

Pvt Dancer, on 04 March 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Aegis... listen. I will /try/ to end this... for now.

What is the 'balancing factor for the clans OP tech? The fact that the players are suppose to...
A) Underbid their tonnage /extensivily/
Follow rules of engagement on the battlefield that was not benificial to them

This, above, will never happen. You know why? Because the game is not built with any limitations to enforce these measures. It is 16 vs 16, probably equal tonnage created by an artificial match-maker. No one is going to sit there and go in with 5 mechs vs 16, or be able to 'bid tonnage' against anyone else.

Also, it is fine and dandy for fluff, but guess what. YOUR NOT A CLANNER. Your a person, a human being and whatever notions of grandure some writer put in your head on how they should act and how you precieve them to act will never match up with how the author precieved them. People are going to 'over bid' and quote some BS because Clan X did it on planet X in book X... and look, they really didn't get punished for it... nothing really bad happened... in fact, they discovered it was to their advantage.

You can't trust people that you don't know to enforce rules they really don't care to follow. Period.

Clan mechs and technology /are/ over powered to standard tech and Star league tech, and we have to assume, based on the mechs released and the time frame that standard tech is the basic tech we are playing with. We have to assume that the 'match maker' is somewhat static and we have to assume that there are no limits to a person's tactics in a actual match.

This makes Clan mechs over powered and unbalanced the game as we have to /assume/ it exists... so thus, unless they start us out with Star league Tech that is nearly balanced to clan tech, and allow IS players to use clan tech in some way (through RL money or in game money) to make 16 vs 16 matchs possible and fun for the IS side...aka, gives them a damn chance.

Done...

No doubt clan tech is better in every single way, but what is to say that teams will be symmetrical? For example, an IS team would consist of a full company, while a clan team will only consist of a single star of Omnimechs?

If the game uses a ticket system, this could also be weighted. A commando could be worth1 ticket, an atlas worth 5 tickets, but a Timberwolf worth 8 or 9 tickets. This would offset the advantages that clan tech grants: Each mech is much stronger, but there are fewer on the field, and fewer to take its place once it falls.

Aegis Kleais™, on 04 March 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

1. Bring on the Clan tech as close to it's difference from IS Tech
2. Do #1 but lower the differences in performance to make Clan Tech marginally better
3. Allow segregation games where no Clan Tech is allowed on either team
4. Don't introduce clan tech at all, despite the game's desire to follow the BT timeline.
(Am open to hearing other options here)

The only way I can see it working while remaining true to BT canon, is to have fewer clanners than IS on the field at once.

Edited by Dr.Killinger, 04 March 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[Threat Doc]

Okay, I'm already seeing 7 pages, so I'm not reading any further than 5. This system is going to be sort of difficult to get used to, I think, but will be second-nature soon enough.

[Karyudo ds]

Atlas thread titles, clan tech subject... Alrighty.

Well either way I'd not introducing clans were an option I suspect PGI would have stuck with 3015. Though overpowered does describe clan tech in a sense. Fewer crictials at times but more damage, range, less heat etc... Not many downsides.

On the other hand most of this argument seems based entirely on assumptions of the game format. I don't get why you would argue about it being to powerful if they go with 5-10vs12..and clan rules could be enforced via software if they really wanted, but last I checked we haven't heard anything about how they will be included so I will be back to argue once we have any facts to argue with. Though I will say I never had a problem taking IS mechs vs Clan mechs. Powerful or not the pilots still mattered.

[verybad]

Aegis Kleais™, on 02 March 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

To me, it's not OP, it's just better.

And yeah, I use ton's of contractions, which roleplaying Clanners don't. But to not use them makes me want to beat myself up because of how snooty it makes me sound.

Hilarious. So you don't like the clans for their culture, but for their toys. At least admit it.

[Orzorn]

The simple fact of the matter is that the only balancing factor to clan tech is their rules of engagement and the Battle Value rules. Since its a PC game, we lose both, unless PGI is extremely clever and somehow manages to enforce at least some part of Zellbrigen (or however its spelled).

On a separate, more on topic note, the pictures that PGI is releasing on their facebook, the fragmented ones, seem to be the view of the hangar from the Hunchback's perspective. So it seems we're going to see the hunchback's cockpit soon.