131 replies to this topic

[WaxMan]

Thinking about this has led me to revise my preferred controller set up back to my radial stick throttle with its set and forget. But i wold also like the on hand ability to temporarily alter this, rather than having to take my hand of stick / mouse change the throttle and then make my maneuvers. In effect i would have a button to during press set my alter my current throttle by a preset percentage.

For example I am in a light mech with my throttle set to 70% however some times i would like to slow down to take a shot or a clear LOS for a short while so i may set a key bind to ****** my throttle by 60% (not sure if you want this to be % of total or current set value) until the key is released where my throttle will return to is preset speed (I expect there to be a period of deceleration and acceleration during this process). Buttons could be mapped to Hotas or additional mouse buttons.

This combined with stick X and Y for torso yaw and pitch, stick twist for legs left and right tun (twist % = turn rate) and mouse for arm positioning (assuming that we are able to separate the torso follow the arm pointer) would give all immediately needed actions access to full analogue controls.

[Sheewa]

Throttle is fine. You can rotate your torso, shoot, jump, drink coffee, eat cookies etc

Edited by Sheewa, 20 March 2012 - 04:20 AM.

[HeadWar]

Oppi, on 20 March 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

The only reason that you don't control your car by pressing the "go 50 km/h" button and letting the machine do the work (and just hit the brakes when you see red lights in front of you) is the security aspect. If you somehow fall asleep or something else happens preventing you from using the controls, the car is supposed to stop on its own so you don't hit a wall.
In a war machine there would be much less of the security stuff, because the pilot is assumed to know exactly what he's doing.

What? No. Have you ever driven a car?

If you're going to fall asleep in a car, it's gonna be on a highway, and that's the only place you really use cruise control.

It's a matter of control, in city traffic you are constantly changing your speed up and down, which is pretty much the opposite of what a cruise control is for, it's optimized for keeping a constant speed, rather than quick changes.

[Mechteric]

Prosperity Park, on 19 March 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

I Disagree - the OP says using a static throttle is unrealistic; most automobiles use a dynamic throttle instead of a static throttle. If you take your foot off the gas, it doesn't automatically stay in cruise-control; it slows down. Our Mechs are set up with a static boat throttle that just cruises in one place instead of a more dynamic car throttle.

And if you were to "really" pilot this thing, then I bet you'd have the choice betwen setting a static throttle output mode and having a dynamic pressure-based throttle for highly active combat situations.

Having a choice is fine, I'm all for letting people drive it their way. But just remember that mechs aren't cars. They don't have brakes, so the idea of setting a throttle via a lever makes plenty of sense comparitively.

[Gunmage]

autogyro, on 20 March 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

And secondly, we have to stop thinking of Battlemechs as armoured bipedal humans, they are more like walking tanks.

>Battlemechs are not armoured bipedal humans, they are more like walking tanks<
>Battlemechs are like walking tanks<
>Tanks<
I know i'm gonna suffer hell of a flame here, but... the Game-That-Shouldn't-Be-Mentioned actually has both ways af throttle control. While at the same time preserving the dynamic difference between lighter and heavier machines.
So why we can't have both and let pilots decide for themselves what is better for them? Myself, i have no problems with fixed throttle levels, but when i reinstalled MW4, i remember the annoyance at not having any options.

[Stone Profit]

Psydotek, on 19 March 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

The current setup is the next best thing until throttle sticks become mandatory peripherals...

It's a Mechwarrior Sim, joystick setups with some kind of throttle are mandatory...

00dlez, on 19 March 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

My Extreme 3D Pro X30 from logitech has a left thumb throttle a a 6 button pad for my left fingers (use them for lance commands, coolant flush, etc) then have a 6 button stick + hat and the stick twists for torso moves as well, Cant recommend it enough... But I bought it in 2004... probably not made anymore.

Thanks I'll have to look into that, I'm sure they still make something comparable

LordDeathStrike, on 19 March 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

and 99.9% of people are incapable of driving without using cruise control set throttle to avoid speeding tickets, throw in the fact that you are steering, watching where you are going, getting shot at, and shooting back. they dont have any brain power left to control their speed, they need the set throttle.

Your statement is incredibly flawed. sir. Please try again, and perhaps less foolishly this time.

Scar, on 20 March 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

MWO isn't a sim and mouse do the job far better, than stick.

Except, it IS a sim... try reading the dev blogs

[Gunmage]

It is a sim of FICTIONAL vehicle, which canonically needs an neurohelmet to operate. I may be wrong, but i don't think that someone sells those nowadays. Also, despite it being a sim, the mouse does suit it (at least in MW4) better than stick. The throttle handle, on the other side, is awesome.

[MaddMaxx]

Stone Profit, on 19 March 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Does anyone know of a joystick with a thumb area mounted throttle? That would be ideal imo, two joysticks, with the throttle at the left hand thumb position.

Most Sticks use a Thumb based Throttle slider system. Works great for Mechs. I too still practice with a Sidewinder (trigger is busted) but 4 left hand buttons allow group fire setup a breeze.

[Scar]

Stone Profit, on 20 March 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Except, it IS a sim... try reading the dev blogs

I have my own opinion on genre i'm playing for the last 25 years. You can't make a simulator of thing that doesn't exist, because then we could describe the World of Warcraft as Orcs and Mages simulator.

Space sim
Space sim
Space shooter
Space shooter

Learn the difference.

[Stone Profit]

Gunmage, on 20 March 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

It is a sim of FICTIONAL vehicle, which canonically needs an neurohelmet to operate. I may be wrong, but i don't think that someone sells those nowadays. Also, despite it being a sim, the mouse does suit it (at least in MW4) better than stick. The throttle handle, on the other side, is awesome.

The neurohelmet reads the brainwaves of the pilot. The basic model of neurohelmet focuses on the human sense of balance. With a multi-ton gyroscope and powerful myomers in the limbs, BattleMechs can stand upright and remain balanced on their own, but the limited intelligence of BattleMechs and natural conservatism of their control computers means they often need to be told when it is acceptable to be off balance, which may be helpful in battle as MechWarriors push their machines. The neurohelmet also provides feedback to the MechWarrior, helping them retain their own sense of balance as they sit 10 to 12 meters in the air atop a swaying, weaving bipedal giant robot.
More advanced neurohelmets provide additional input and output beyond a sense of balance, though they never amount to "Direct Neural Interface" technology. A neurohelmet can provide the MechWarrior with a kinesthetic sense - a sense of how the 'Mech's limbs are positioned - and Star League aerospace fighter neurohelmets served to provide a weak virtual reality to the pilots. In return, MechWarriors can use neurohelmets to provide some clarification the simple commands they are supplying to a 'Mech through joysticks, triggers, and pedals.
Early neurohelmets had to be carefully calibrated to the brain of the pilot. If the calibration was not exact (or if there was the wrong pilot wearing the helmet), this could lead to a host of effects, including headache, dizzy sight, balance problems and disturbing buzzing inside your head (a very weak buzzing remains even if the calibration is correct). Such out-dated neurohelmets are still in use in Clan Sibkos and in old 'Mechs in the Periphery. Modern neurohelmets are more advanced and no longer depend on a specific pilot.

Straight from Sarna.net

Scar, on 20 March 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

I have my own opinion on genre i'm playing for the last 25 years. You can't make a simulator of thing that doesn't exist, because then we could describe the World of Warcraft as Orcs and Mages simulator.

Space sim
Space sim
Space shooter
Space shooter

Learn the difference.

Just because you choose not to call it a sim in no way makes it not a sim. the devs called it a sim. its a sim.
Learn not to be so abrasive

Edited by Stone Profit, 20 March 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[HeadWar]

autogyro, on 20 March 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

And secondly, we have to stop thinking of Battlemechs as armoured bipedal humans, they are more like walking tanks.

What's the difference, and how is it relevant?

[Scar]

Stone Profit, on 20 March 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Just because you choose not to call it a sim in no way makes it not a sim. the devs called it a sim. its a sim.
Learn not to be so abrasive

I don't care how devs are called it - what i care about: IS this a sim?

Simulation is the imitation of some real thing available, state of affairs, or process. The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviors of a selected physical or abstract system.

Edited by Scar, 20 March 2012 - 07:12 AM.

[HeadWar]

Stone Profit, on 20 March 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Except, it IS a sim... try reading the dev blogs

Given the amount of control and controls we have, I'd say it's more of an advanced arcade game. No matter what the dev blogs say.

The "real" MechWarriors have a lot more control over their Mechs than we will have. We can set a speed, and then decide if we want to turn left or right...

[The Destinator]

Personally, I always related the throttle on MW4 to driving a tractor. Same concept, except you aren't blowing things up. Granted not everybody has had the chance to drive a tractor so this is kinda moot...

[Felicitatem Parco]

I have a cheap Logitec joystick - it's the replacement for my cheap Saitek joystick. They both had little tiny throttles down at the base of the joystick, and between 10-14 buttons with a hat and z-rotation. I don't have TrackIR or anything fancy.

The current model where either the keys or a peripheral throttle work to setting your speed (as opposed to a dynamic, spring-loaded stick or pedal) should be very appropriate for a "Large Mechanical Vehicle Simulator" but it would be innappropriate for a "First-Person Shooter."

MW:O is going to be a Large Mechanical Vehicle Simulator, a game where it takes a significant amount of time to slow down from a full run and to then begin moving backwards, and vice versa. There is a lack of "twitch," and so you don't need the twitch-response-capabilities of analogue control sticks. Also, as I mentioned earlier, a gamepad pressure-based throttle would leave you developing that move-forward-callus on your thumb where it's constantly pushing forward on the stick, and you'd have to address the fallacy of analogue sticks where pushing the stick 100% forward + 100% left translates to actually just 84% forward and 84% left (sin(1) for each) because you're pointing away from the true centers of either of those directions... so turning while trying to run forward forces your forward progress to slow down.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 20 March 2012 - 08:04 AM.

[Ramrod]

Scar, on 20 March 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

I don't care how devs are called it - what i care about: IS this a sim?

Simulation is the imitation of some real thing available, state of affairs, or process. The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviors of a selected physical or abstract system.

That's semantics, and semantics that only seems to bother you and nobody else. This sub-genre of sci-fi vehicle control game is still included in the parent category of "simulation games" by developers, publishers, retailers and consumers, whether they are using the term correctly or not.

Suck it up.

[Aegis Kleais]

Dataman, on 20 March 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

did you mean we should 'hold W to going forward and when you released your finger, your mech stops?'

I don't like that idea

Not sure who you're talking to, but my idea is that as you PRESS W, the throttle increases and your Mech then begins to accelerate in order to get to the level of throttle you opened up. If you let go of W, the throttle stays at that value and the Mech accelerates until it gets to that throttle's speed.

"Opening" the throttle simply meant that, for example, from a stand still, you could instantly tell the Mech "I want 100% speed", so the throttle shows 100% (which is the line) and then the Mech begins to accelerate to get to that level (which is the solid bar getting longer until it reaches the throttle marker) Since each Mech has different acceleration/deceleration speeds, the amount of time it would take to get to the current throttle value would differ.

[Scar]

Ramrod, on 20 March 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

That's semantics, and semantics that only seems to bother you and nobody else.

Not only me, but dozens of millions well educated people who know what the term "simulator" really means. And it's not just semantics - it's a particular meaning of the term.

And who are you that you speak for everyone? Jesus, is that you?

Quote

This sub-genre of sci-fi vehicle control game is still included in the parent category of "simulation games" by developers, publishers, retailers and consumers, whether they are using the term correctly or not.

It's not my problem if they don't know what the term really means. Black isn't white and Earth isn't flat, even if the whole world said it is.

Edited by Scar, 20 March 2012 - 08:55 AM.

[Stone Profit]

Scar, on 20 March 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Not only me, but dozens of millions well educated people who know what the term "simulator" really means. And it's not just semantics - it's a particular meaning of the term.

And who are you that you speak for everyone? Jesus, is that you?


It's not my problem if they don't know what the term really means. Black isn't white and Earth isn't flat, even if the whole world said it is.

Perhaps you could start a new thread, since you are off topic. If a mod reads this, help a dude out please.

For my part, a setup of a joystick and a throttle just doesnt suit my needs. I would like two joystick set up with the left sick xy be turn and the right stick be look/torso twist/arm recticle. Preferably with a thumb throttle on the left stick.

Edited by Stone Profit, 20 March 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Scar]

Stone Profit, on 20 March 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Perhaps you could start a new thread, since you are off topic. If a mod reads this, help a dude out please.

For my part, a setup of a joystick and a throttle just doesnt suit my needs. I would like two joystick set up with the left sick xy be turn and the right stick be look/torso twist/arm recticle. Preferably with a thumb throttle on the left stick.

I have some cockies for you. Razer Hydra