224 replies to this topic

[Creed Buhallin]

Big guns are so deadly to lights on the tabletop because of the damage transfer rules. I honestly don't see any reason to expect those rules to be in MWO. Look at it this way: If a target has had its arm blown off, and you aim for where the arm used to be, would you expect the hit to apply to the torso instead? I think most wouldn't. That's what damage transfer does, and moving excess damage from a destroyed part in doesn't many any more sense. We'll have to wait and see what they do with it, of course.

That said, I think some people seriously misinterpreting what lights can do. Devs say "Everything will be useful" and their eyes light up with dreams of circle-strafing Jenners annihilating whole companies of assault 'mechs that just can't touch their level of speedy leet awesomeness. But that's not what they've said. It's never been said that a light will have a reasonably equal chance to kill an assault 'mech 1v1 - they've said they'll be USEFUL. That usefulness will come from the role you play as a scout, distraction, and occasional hit-and-run artist. If you're really expecting something like a Jenner to last very long against an Atlas or even a Hunchback, it's probably going to be a very unpleasant surprise the first time it connects with you.

[Seabear]

One shot kills are apart of the game. Hard to do even if you are extremely lucky, but still part of the game. One might as well complain because a light with a good pilot can get behind an asault and pick it apart. It's a tradeoff. You want speed; you take the chance of getting hit with a big gun and going down. You want tough, you take an assault and take the chance that a light will get in your blind spot and peck you to death. Complaining about one shot kills is not focusing on the entire question. Heavies should not have to give up their advantages just because they MIGHT take out another mech with 1 shot. That's why you carry an AC20! You pay for that advantage with a slower speed and less manuverablity.

With role warfare, you will see each class take its rightful place on the battlefield. To homogenize all mechs so that do not their special advantages will destroy the game. No real player wants to pilot a sure thing as the chance to risk virtual destruction and death is one of the attractive things about the BT/MW universe. No guts = No glory! If all one wants to do is wade thru enemies in an impervious machine of death, I'm sure there are games out there for those who don't really grasp the idea of competetion.

[Pht]

One shot kills are not bad.

If they wind up being the only viable tactic due to some unintended conseqences, that would be bad.

Myself, I'm sick of games that encourage people to do nothing more than run towards the nearest enemies and duke it out for the next few minutes.

I'd rather see a game that rewards planning, if even just a little planning.

[cinco]

BduSlammer, on 20 March 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

some of the battlemechs in this game will be taken down with one shot from either a ac-20 or gause round will people drop out if they want light mechs and that happens

good. i don't want 12 year olds from counter strike and world of tanks anyway. they're the most irresponsible spenders as well. so i'm pretty sure they'll use their mom's credit card to buy hundreds of dollars worth of **** before they actually start playing and realizing the game's too hard for them.

Edited by cinco, 20 March 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Mellowbloom]

cinco, on 20 March 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

good. i don't want 12 year olds from counter strike and world of tanks anyway. they're the most irresponsible spenders as well. so i'm pretty sure they'll use their mom's credit card to buy hundreds of dollars worth of **** before they actually start playing and realizing the game's too hard for them.

I don't understand this crappy mindset some people are in over this. Most modern shooters have you dieing pretty damn fast, and have more frequent 1-hit ko's than I presume this will have.

[Steel Talon]

AC/20 is terrifying thing, hit to cockpit or weak rear armor mean a lot even for assault

[Yeach]

Markocius, on 20 March 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

A Gauss or an AC-20 to the Head, you're dead. According to the rules, the Damage for a Gauss Cannon is 15 pts. The Head can hold 9 pts of armor and 3 Internal Structure pts. Which means it can take a total of 11 pts of damage and still be functional. The 12th pt kills it.

Only if you agree that an AC20 and a Gauss rifle have a RECYCLE time of 10 seconds as per TT turns.

The problem is that combat resulted in very very short battles ie Mechwarrior 3 when Mechs were taken out in 2 or 3 salvos because armor was taken at TT values but weapons were taken at TT damage face values with a much reduced recycle time.
This resulting in weapons doing far more damage than they should have.

Edited by Yeach, 20 March 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[Lord Banshee]

Of course I am. Considering how nasty the matchmaker is in World of Tanks, getting one-shot when I'm one of the bottom-5 on my team is par for the course. Why should MW:O be any different? It's dangerous out there.

[HighlandWolf]

im not worried, they'll balance the game..and if you cant work a scout correctly..you'll move onto something with more armour and more weapons..the ones that quit will be the ones that want quick and easy games

[Taw Jackson]

I'm with HighlandWolf on this one. The devs have been good to us thus far.....no reason to think they won't balance it out.

[Pht]

Yeach, on 20 March 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Only if you agree that an AC20 and a Gauss rifle have a RECYCLE time of 10 seconds as per TT turns.

Not so, padawan!

Quote

The problem is that combat resulted in very very short battles ie Mechwarrior 3 when Mechs were taken out in 2 or 3 salvos because armor was taken at TT values but weapons were taken at TT damage face values with a much reduced recycle time.
This resulting in weapons doing far more damage than they should have.

The DPS of weapons in TT is limited by how much heat they generate, because heat is the only factor that limits all weapons DPS potential.

If they lower the recycle time to under ten seconds, than they bump the heat up. Slower times, less heat. Balance preserved.

FYI, the solaris box set allowed the weapons to operate at 2.5 second recycle times...

[pursang]

You cannot one-shot that which you cannot hit.

Edited by pursang, 20 March 2012 - 06:28 PM.

[EDMW CSN]

1 shot kill happens to everyone.
The head needs 12 damage to kill off the mech + pilot.

Assuming this game does not allow lethal damage to the pilot, i think a 10 damage shot from a PPC will do you mech in no matter what size. Most assaults also have crap for rear torso armor and if there are ammo cook offs, it is another 1 hit killer.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 20 March 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[Yeach]

Pht, on 20 March 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Not so, padawan!

The DPS of weapons in TT is limited by how much heat they generate, because heat is the only factor that limits all weapons DPS potential.

If they lower the recycle time to under ten seconds, than they bump the heat up. Slower times, less heat. Balance preserved.

FYI, the solaris box set allowed the weapons to operate at 2.5 second recycle times...

I don't agree with the solaris box set.
Even though heat is a factor, it is less of a factor for ACs so you still have the high DPS and you would still have quick ending fights.

Correct me if I am wrong but Solaris rules do not lower the damage per the 2.5 seconds segments so an AC20 could theoretically fire 4 times resulting in 80 damage compared to 20 damage in a TT turn.

Makes combat much quicker than it should be IMO.

[CobaltRaptor]

One-shots are going to happen, but only the best of the best will be able to do them routinely. Additionally Jennner's do have armor, so a first strike AC-20 probably isn't going to insta-kill unless it a VERY lucky headshot. I would, however GTFA from whoever has that monster because it will mangle anything given enough time, and it would mangle a light quickly, if it doesn't get away. Besides that i believe the Atlas will be the easiest assault mech to kill. Not because of its speed or armmament, but because any pilot who knows even a little will know this. GO FOR THE EYES!

[HIemfire]

Adridos, on 20 March 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

As for the 1 shot kills. If you make a mistake and give your opponent a chance to land a perfect critical hit on you, why shouldn't you get punished? We will all do mistakes like that when the game launches, but it's only up to us to transform from those getting one-shotted, into those one-shotting even without an enemy mistake.

Because it won't be long till allot of people will look at logging on as that "mistake".

[Zedera]

Hrmmm...even with the massive damage from Gauss Rifles and AC-20s and the absolutely pathetic armor that most mechs have in the general cockpit area, there have been cases where it was impossible to one-shot mechs at all. Was fiddling around with Mechwarrior 4 Mercs recently, and brought a Behemoth II to bear, Rail Gun and every other weapon I had on that thing, against a Nova Cat with all its armor stripped down to 0.1 ton per spot. Reduced most of its armor to flashing red, but didn't one-shot it, even with the armor at absolute minimum. It could be possible that they'll implement a "second chance" in the actual game, however physically impossible it may be. Just to give those poor new players the idea that they should probably be running and hiding right now.

[HIemfire]

Zedera, on 20 March 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Hrmmm...even with the massive damage from Gauss Rifles and AC-20s and the absolutely pathetic armor that most mechs have in the general cockpit area, there have been cases where it was impossible to one-shot mechs at all. Was fiddling around with Mechwarrior 4 Mercs recently, and brought a Behemoth II to bear, Rail Gun and every other weapon I had on that thing, against a Nova Cat with all its armor stripped down to 0.1 ton per spot. Reduced most of its armor to flashing red, but didn't one-shot it, even with the armor at absolute minimum. It could be possible that they'll implement a "second chance" in the actual game, however physically impossible it may be. Just to give those poor new players the idea that they should probably be running and hiding right now.

MW4 has some sort of cap or timer in place to reduce the chance of one shotting (it isn't perfect). A slight staggering (half second maybe less) could take a target out in "one shot" though.

Edited by HIemfire, 20 March 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[Matthew Craig]

I wouldn't be too worried on this score, it ties in with another thread I saw about will the heavies feel nerfed. I think a good way to describe this that I've been thinking is fear and intimidation on the battlefield become much more about the situations you find yourself in. A heavy will not always intimidate a light and vice versa depending on the situation which hopefully makes for a much better play experience, a heavy will feel intimidating if he gets in the right spot and applies his damage correctly but if he wanders off and gets himself surrounded he's not going to feel so badass.

As for 1 shots I don't think they'll be common they will be possible but not common, chances are if you scored a 1 shot kill, either you were in a heavier Mech and they decided to do something fool hardy like stand and trade or stay still for too long, they were already damaged or you really did pull off a great shot (more likely lucky shot). Lights have a lot of options to help defend themselves, keep moving, use cover, be strategic (flank get behind to the weaker rear armor) etc. etc. If you're smart you're also using your team mates effectively for tanking and even cover. I think a really cool thing I've noticed is that pilot skill really can be a deciding difference some skirmishes go the way you'd expect but with clever management you can pull off very gratifying upsets

*sighs* Now I'm all geared up for the next play test *heads off to plot devastating strategies to use against Paul*

[Semyon Drakon]

I think a lot of people are worrying too much about this. The small percentage of times it'll happen aren't going to make much of a difference. Very few mechwarriors are good enough shots to headcap someone at will and with the difficulty imposed by weapon convergence and double reticles I think that it's going to take something of a minor miracle to pull off deliberately.

That said, what happens to all these worried light mech pilots when light and medium mechs with heavier weapons systems start showing up? Gauss rifles on 30 tonners? ER Medium lasers in groups of 3 or more? ERPPC's? The Clans are coming kids and their light mechs make the IS ones look anaemic.

I'd suggest the energy spent worrying would be better spent learning hoe to be a light mech pilot.

Semyon (who is not a light mech pilot, but pilots one of those heavies that apparently should be feeling outmoded.)