220 replies to this topic

[IceSerpent]

Vodkavaiator, on 22 October 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

So a landlocked country isn't independent? There are plenty of countries which have no ability to influence or move without facing another country but enough forces or diplomatic aptitude to ensure that they remain a sovereign nation.

Again, a divided IS isn't necessarily a defeated IS.

Landlocked country is only independent (assuming that it's self-sufficient in terms of resources) if either it can maintain a military force and repel potential invaders, or if nobody attacks it. A planet in the middle of Clan space that staged a rebellion is highly likely to be attacked by the Clan that used to control it and is extremely unlikely to have any military force aside from infantry, which is not very effective against a force of mechs and elementals. The amount of diplomatic aptitude required to pull off a "we just rebelled against you guys and we have no chance whatsoever of getting outside help, but please don't try to subdue us" stunt is simply unrealistic.

[ShotgunWillie]

tankermottind, on 20 October 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Another thing to note is that the entire Clan eugenics program is inherently unsustainable. Their fixation with weeding out "inferior" genes and keeping the trueborn bloodlines free of outside influence means that their gene pool is slowly contracting and they will eventually inbreed themselves into extinction unless they radically alter the system.

OK, so I'll admit that I stopped reading somewhere on page 4, but I didn't see a rsponse to this, and I do think it bears a response.

While you have a valid point, there is a counter to it. Once Clan Ghost Bear moved all of their assets into the Inner Sphere (and into the FRR), they ultimately did win the hearts and minds of the local populace and created the Rasalhague Dominion, which they ruled alongside the locals.

In doing so, their caste system expanded to include "Trueborn" and "Freeborn" warriors with the former being any warrior produced by the Clan's breeding program and the former being any warrior who were not produced by the breeding program. It is possible for a Freeborn warrior to prove himself worthy to have his genes incorporated into the breeding program and any of his descendants who are produced via the breeding program are considered Trueborn warriors, even if they come from genes of a native Rasalhagians or a Freeborn ethnic Ghost Bear warrior. Link.

The fact that at least one of the Clans was able to find a way to supplement their genetic lines shows that the Clans were not doomed to inbreed themselves into extiction.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Vodkavaiator, on 22 October 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Not every planet is reliant on food or supplies from other planets.

Finally what happens when the clans simply leave a planet? The puppet governments are overthrown and the clans have to fight yet another war once they come back?

Regardless of the ability to bypass planets, at some point the clans would have to commit to holding territory or attacking. Unless of course there plan was to avoid every single planet with a sizable population or ability to survive without external supplies for a longer period of time?

That is not always the case. It depends on which Clan you are referring to. As shown with Wolf, the front-line troops conquer the planet. The leave the current administration to run things (with ComStar help of course), then garrison the planet & move on. The Wolves had little or no trouble with that. The Ghost Bears got off to a rocky start but in later books it was mentioned MANY times that they treat their prisoners well. The Falcons & Jaguars are a different matter & in any event, force works.

[Vodkavaiator]

IceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Landlocked country is only independent (assuming that it's self-sufficient in terms of resources) if either it can maintain a military force and repel potential invaders, or if nobody attacks it. A planet in the middle of Clan space that staged a rebellion is highly likely to be attacked by the Clan that used to control it and is extremely unlikely to have any military force aside from infantry, which is not very effective against a force of mechs and elementals. The amount of diplomatic aptitude required to pull off a "we just rebelled against you guys and we have no chance whatsoever of getting outside help, but please don't try to subdue us" stunt is simply unrealistic.

The clans would in all likelihood not be facing one rebellion at a time and again, why would they necessarily be faced by a conventional force?

Even if an entire planet had not single mech, tank or even vehicle, I don't exactly think facing a population in the millions would be a good idea.

[Ansel]

Vodkavaiator, on 22 October 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

You cannot be serious.

A civilian resistance doesn't have to be any way related to a military one nor does the presence of a military force mean one cannot exist. The only thing it requires is a source of discontent and/or other reason for fighting(such as nationalism, religion, etc).

A civilian resistance in turn can ensure that significantly less resources are acquired...cause the military force to lose valuable things trying to secure or restore the ability to acquire said resources.

Which hey is exactly what happens in real life.

It would be very hard to keep a serious resistance movement in place if the people you are resisting aginst don't come back for 2-5 years before each visit.

Your not dealing with a civilian resistance that is in contact with an enemy, remember how people tend to "forget" and seem to become very "complacent" so long as no one is trying to take away things they want "right now".

Remember 9/11, it was "security" for the first few years, then it turned into "damed airport security" after about 5 with no obvious attacks.

Vodkavaiator, on 22 October 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

The clans would in all likelihood not be facing one rebellion at a time and again, why would they necessarily be faced by a conventional force?

Even if an entire planet had not single mech, tank or even vehicle, I don't exactly think facing a population in the millions would be a good idea.

Your statement would make sence if they had to land and actualy face millions of armed civilians. But if that happend they would then just glass the millions of civilians from orbit if they didn't disperse.

Again i'll ask, what will civilans who do not have anything more than small arms do to a ship in space that can glass cities from orbit?

They certenly can't fight it.

They certenly cannot make the ship suddnly not fire it's guns, they aren't magical.

[n0rdiCZ]

Objectivly seen easy ....
the could in real only because of mr stackpole & mr Pardoes History line thru 65 novels

an example ?

the Wehrmacht in 1940 (Clans) vs IS (France)
better tactics
better equip
better morale
wins

[Vodkavaiator]

For timeframe let us take Afghanistan...

Russians show up = resistence
Some 20 years later NATO shows up = resistence
Next time a foreign power shows up = resistance?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the clans then can either never land or start performing mass murder(as you say, "glassing" any IS civilians who refuse to fall in line, even on a planet scale)

And this would be possible without any consequences(such as loss of support from their own people)?

Furthermore, what happens if they are faced with mass civil disobedience? Such as the case of the British Empire and the Indian nationalist movement?

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 22 October 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Vodkavaiator, on 22 October 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

The clans would in all likelihood not be facing one rebellion at a time and again, why would they necessarily be faced by a conventional force?

Because when planet is conquered, it stands to reason that invaders are going to take all military equipment away from the locals - at least heavy stuff. That only leaves would-be-rebels with small arms and explosives.

Quote

Even if an entire planet had not single mech, tank or even vehicle, I don't exactly think facing a population in the millions would be a good idea.

In order for even a substantial amount of population to join the rebellion (let alone whole population), people need to be seriously unhappy about something. Given that Clans are not known for caring much about religion or oppressing civilians, this leaves national pride as a possible cause. Nationalism is a poor motivation when things are otherwise not too bad and you are facing a possibility of a warship glassing a city or two.

[Vodkavaiator]

IceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Because when planet is conquered, it stands to reason that invaders are going to take all military equipment away from the locals - at least heavy stuff. That only leaves would-be-rebels with small arms and explosives.

History has shown us that disarming a population is far harder than it at first seems for a conquering nation...and to my knowledge it has not been an overly successful tactic in the recent conflicts of a comparable nature.

Quote

In order for even a substantial amount of population to join the rebellion (let alone whole population), people need to be seriously unhappy about something. Given that Clans are not known for caring much about religion or oppressing civilians, this leaves national pride as a possible cause. Nationalism is a poor motivation when things are otherwise not too bad and you are facing a possibility of a warship glassing a city or two.

"Hey, these foreign people with a strange culture just showed up, killed our government and now they are trying to tell us what to do."

I am not certain that would go over well...

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 22 October 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Ashla Mason]

Vodkavaiator, on 22 October 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

For timeframe let us take Afghanistan...

Russians show up = resistence
Some 20 years later NATO shows up = resistence
Next time a foreign power shows up = resistance?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the clans then can either never land or start performing mass murder(as you say, "glassing" any IS civilians who refuse to fall in line, even on a planet scale)

And this would be possible without any consequences(such as loss of support from their own people)?

Furthermore, what happens if they are faced with mass civil disobedience? Such as the case of the British Empire and the Indian nationalist movement?

The first part is a poor comparison, since the Afgani's were supplied with weapons and training by the CIA. Sneaking comparable assets onto a completely different planet in sufficient numbers and quantity to render the planet no longer worthwhile to the clans without getting the local populace slaughtered would be... extremely unlikely.

Since I'm here I might as well adress some of the other points that have been raised...

1. Biological Doom!: The clans aren't, and people who are arguing that the trueborn way lack's long term viability haven't looked at the matter long enough and hard enough. They are quick to forget that the clans have an entire subcaste of scientists dedicated to nothing but determining how to produce better warriors with the lineages (RE: sperm and ovum) that they have and advise the khans on which lineages they should attempt to aquire from other clans. Furthermore, while warriors are maturing in the iron womb, they are actively working to correct whatever genetic abnormalities they can.

The viability of this is evidenced in the fact that the clan warriors are (usually) physically supperior to their inner sphere counter parts.

2. Partisan DOOM!: Again, doubtful. While the clans don't respond to guerrilla warfare well, they aren't stupid and they know how to fight it (They've dealt with pirates for centuries in clan space afterall). Unless the rebel forces have some combination of wide spread support amongst the populace and assistance from an offworld ally the odds of them successfully driving out the clans are incredibly slim. This is because the clans still have infantry (both conventional and battle armored) on planet that are more then a match for what would probably ammount to little more then a poorly trained and armed mob.

[IceSerpent]

Vodkavaiator, on 22 October 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

History has shown us that disarming a population is far harder than it at first seems for a conquering nation...and to my knowledge it has not been an overly successful tactic in the recent conflicts of a comparable nature.

Really? When did any conquerors fail to take away tanks, aircraft, artillery pieces, naval vessels, etc.?

Quote

"Hey, these foreign people with a strange culture just showed up, killed our government and now they are trying to tell us what to do."
I am not certain that would go over well...

It wouldn't if foreign people are actually trying to impose a lot of new things, as opposed to saying something like "you are part of Wolf Clan now, here's your new flag, carry on...oh, and try not to use contractions, because we do not think it is cool".
Not to mention the "there might be a warship within a single jump distance, so do we want to rebel or not..." dilemma.

[Ashla Mason]

IceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Really? When did any conquerors fail to take away tanks, aircraft, artillery pieces, naval vessels, etc.?



It wouldn't if foreign people are actually trying to impose a lot of new things, as opposed to saying something like "you are part of Wolf Clan now, here's your new flag, carry on...oh, and try not to use contractions, because we do not think it is cool".
Not to mention the "there might be a warship within a single jump distance, so do we want to rebel or not..." dilemma.

"Oh and our pistols and hunting rifles can't actually penetrate the armor of their infantry, who can litterally rip a tank apart..."

[Vodkavaiator]

IceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Really? When did any conquerors fail to take away tanks, aircraft, artillery pieces, naval vessels, etc.?

When were any of those things required for a successful insurgency? I wasn't aware that most of the tools used by the Iraq/Afghanistan resistance was on the massive scale...

To clarify, you do understand that I agree the clans are far superior in any conventional battle? I am not trying to postulate that the clans could not completely crush the IS in the short term in any such battles, rather I think that in the long run they would run out of resources, be faced with internal problems as a result of constant fighting or simply be put in an unattainable strategic position due to over-extension and numbers.

Quote

It wouldn't if foreign people are actually trying to impose a lot of new things, as opposed to saying something like "you are part of Wolf Clan now, here's your new flag, carry on...oh, and try not to use contractions, because we do not think it is cool".
Not to mention the "there might be a warship within a single jump distance, so do we want to rebel or not..." dilemma.

Secondly, this seems like an extremely unrealistic view of what the clans generally demanded of subjugated territories. Both based on literature and what one would reasonably imagine a conquering faction to do.

Sure some clans were more lenient than others, but it is still not as if there were not major cultural and social differences.

Considering we have wars in our own world merely based on which interpretation of a certain faith is "more" correct, I think you might also be underestimating how readily people find differences in each other.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 22 October 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[PyroAcid]

don't count the darkage i dont take it as canon its wizkids/microshaft bt

[Shalune]

A lot of you are trying to apply traditional military characteristics to the operation of a resistance or insurgent force in the same way a war-strategy video game simplifies them into mechanics that fit neatly with the rest of your army maneuvering. Here's the chain of logic as it applies here that seems to be missing a link or two in some of these arguments:

Superior military of the clans occupies territory of DC (just an example)

Because of the differences in culture, change in general, and lack of heavy handed oversight dissent rises on a planet

The clans do not have the numbers needed to force cooperation with the regime on this planet given the sheer size of their total held territory without attacking the populace as a hole.

Attacking the populace as a hole is not a permanent solution, creates animosity and resentment that increase the need for an occupying force.

Using excessive force to 'glass' the populace technically solves the problem of dissent but denies the clans the resources of the planet. A population to act as a workforce is a resource.

The entire point of holding territory to begin with is to control the resources within it.

The only other option is to leave the populace alone. While isolated, their dissent means they are independent. Again lacking cooperation the clans deny themselves the resources of the planet.

This is why, as many have said, the only 2 widely accepted solutions to a modern occupation are willing cooperation or enforced cooperation by way of a large occupying force. As someone mentioned mechs do not fill the needs of this force alone because they are ineffective at fostering cooperation. Using them as weapons against the people causes all the same problems mentioned above, just on a smaller scale.

The one good example I've seen here in favor of a clan occupation force succeeding was that of the Rasshalogue citizens that were ambivalent to the change. This leads back to what I'm talking about with cooperation of an occupied people being the goal, but it requires a weak national/group identity which many states in Battletech don't have, or a very strong presence by the occupying force.

[dal10]

n0rdiCZ, on 22 October 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Objectivly seen easy ....
the could in real only because of mr stackpole & mr Pardoes History line thru 65 novels

an example ?

the Wehrmacht in 1940 (Clans) vs IS (France)
better tactics
better equip
better morale
wins

this ignores the population difference, between WW2 Germany and France, there really isn't one.

Germany (Clans) vs. US (IS)
better equipment
similar morale
worse tactics
massively inferior population

IS wins. this is a much better example. German panzers killed our shermans 4 to 1 we produced 10 shermans for every panzer they produced.

[dal10]

Ashla Mason, on 22 October 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

The first part is a poor comparison, since the Afgani's were supplied with weapons and training by the CIA. Sneaking comparable assets onto a completely different planet in sufficient numbers and quantity to render the planet no longer worthwhile to the clans without getting the local populace slaughtered would be... extremely unlikely.

Since I'm here I might as well adress some of the other points that have been raised...

1. Biological Doom!: The clans aren't, and people who are arguing that the trueborn way lack's long term viability haven't looked at the matter long enough and hard enough. They are quick to forget that the clans have an entire subcaste of scientists dedicated to nothing but determining how to produce better warriors with the lineages (RE: sperm and ovum) that they have and advise the khans on which lineages they should attempt to aquire from other clans. Furthermore, while warriors are maturing in the iron womb, they are actively working to correct whatever genetic abnormalities they can.

The viability of this is evidenced in the fact that the clan warriors are (usually) physically supperior to their inner sphere counter parts.

2. Partisan DOOM!: Again, doubtful. While the clans don't respond to guerrilla warfare well, they aren't stupid and they know how to fight it (They've dealt with pirates for centuries in clan space afterall). Unless the rebel forces have some combination of wide spread support amongst the populace and assistance from an offworld ally the odds of them successfully driving out the clans are incredibly slim. This is because the clans still have infantry (both conventional and battle armored) on planet that are more then a match for what would probably ammount to little more then a poorly trained and armed mob.

Never said said rebellion would be successful. But every one draws on the clan's resources more and more. enough rebellions you would either be forced to leave the planet alone, or said too many troops from the front back in order to stop a counter attack. either way the clans get ground down.

[koliup]

Ansel, on 22 October 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

If the enemy your trying to fight can come back and resupply at will then your resistance has failed completely, they then have more resources to use to take other planets.

This is why civilian resistance is pointless, if a military force isn't present on a planet to prevent another military force from taking resourses then the "faction" that the civilan presence represents is the one that can use those resources.

That's what makes asymetrical warfare hell, Ansel. The Clans CAN'T come by and resupply at will.
They need factories to produce their new Left Leg Actuators and Clan Pulse Lasers that get destroyed in battle. But those factories can't exactly defend themselves. They need troops. An undefended factory is rubble in war.

And of course, as the troops are all in space, they can't do anything to defend the factories, which they have no clue if they're even running. And they can't do quality control on the parts, either!

Listen, the only way to resupply from a conquered planet is to have boots on the ground. Yes, you could glass the cities, but then the people, who are NATIVE to that world disappear into their bunkers or the wilderness. You could put mech boots on the ground, or tank treads, but neither are particularly good at inspecting vehicles without exposing themselves, at which point, for a mech, the pilot could be killed and his vehicle taken, or a tank left without a crewmember, drastically lowering its effectiveness.

Getting down to basics; fuel: Battlemechs run off hydrogen. Okay. But what about the dropships? Getting into/out of orbit is some serious business, and you need fuel to get there. One civilian with a bomb and nothing to lose(you killed his/her children, remember?) and your fuel stores are a pretty firework.

Not to mention the drastic numbers difference between IS and Clan. Clan mechs are fragile, logistically. All their parts are produced from far off, whereas IS mechs can pull bits from any other IS mech, of which there are many. A Clanner's pride will likely stop him from using Clan parts.

Honestly, the Clanners had a good run, but they couldn't have pulled off a sustained invasion. Germany was faced with a ton of saboteurs making life a living terror for German soldiers in France.

[SmithMPBT]

The bankers on Terra would just introduce the Federal Reserve System and Fiat cash to the Clans. Making them all bondsman in one fell swoop.

[Ashla Mason]

Quote

The one good example I've seen here in favor of a clan occupation force succeeding was that of the Rasshalogue citizens that were ambivalent to the change. This leads back to what I'm talking about with cooperation of an occupied people being the goal, but it requires a weak national/group identity which many states in Battletech don't have, or a very strong presence by the occupying force.

You're understanding of the FRR is stunningly bad if you think they didn't have a sense of identity; the nation was origionally known as the Principality of Rasalhague and was conquered in 2360 after 3 decades of guerrilla warfare. These people spent 700 years fostering hopes of being free and engaging in sporadic insurgencies against the DC.

The reason the ghost bears were able to bring the people of the region to the table, was because they had decided to form (initially at least) a segregated society in which the clan handled all manners relating to war while the citizens were allowed to engage in whatever domestic interests they pleased so long as it didn't work against the interests of the clan. Further, the presence of the clan brought something to the people that they hadn't had during there independance: a sense of security.

Frankly, the FRR is probably the most shining example of why rebellions don't work.