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Could Clans ever Hold the Inner Sphere?


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#161 Alexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:07 PM

View PostIceSerpent, on 22 October 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

It was a way to save face for Hirohito - suing for peace because another major power entered the war on your enemies' side comes across as prudent, while doing that because your current opponent is kicking your butt while you were the one who started the war with that opponent to begin with is basically like saying "we were dumb and grossly underestimated the opposition" - not a cool thing to admit for the emperor.

As for the OP question, the answer would IMO be: "Yes, if FASA wanted them to (they would surely come up with a "good" reason for that, like they often did in BT, as 99% of the IS population suddenly committing mass suicide or dying of spontaneous human combustion...), but they didn't so no." Any further discussion is therefore pointless. But still fun, so... ;-)

The atomic bomb argument is really flawed. First of all the japanese government were already ready to surrender BEFORE Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were only looking for a way "save their face" in the process. They were already talking to the Russians in that matter. Of course the US knew that, and therefore where in quite a hurry to drop their bombs. Because they really wanted a fieldtest. And they wanted one for a uranium and a plutonium bomb. But they knew the never could drop it, after the japanese surrendered. The atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were only a fieldtest an a showoff. But nothing relevant for the outcome of the war.

Also, the permanent conquest of Japan and the complete assimilation of the japanese people was never really in discussion, and the Japanese knew that. Mac Arthur also did a good job in giving the japanese a sense that the occupation was only temporally and that they will be running their own country again sooner or later. So not much reasons for rebellion.

And if you compare the size it's more like Japan=Clans and USA=IS. Only that the difference of the population and the resources is much, much bigger between Clans and IS.

#162 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostRhent, on 22 October 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:


No, clanner view on tactics in combat is one of distaste. The inner sphere forces would run successful insurgent campaigns and bleed the clans dry. Look at how the Taliban (USSR) and the Vietcong (US) both successfully took on and removed world super powers with vastly superior weaponry using tactics.

The clan would rather run face first into an AC/20 than turn tail and avoid an ambush.



You people keep comparing the BT universe to real life. Shove Russia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, China, Japan, the US, the UK & whoever you can think off up your ***. None of the RL scenarios you wish to compare have mechs, elementals or iron wombs..

How do you bleed the Clans dry when they are the ultimate scavengers who waste NOTHING. They began as a group of people who started off with limited (understatement) resources living on worlds that were barely (understatement) habitable. They make the most of little. That takes care of resources, as far as bodies on the ground? They can order a new batch of troops. Do you get that concept at all? You people have been talking about the Clans have to keep up manpower. Read the damn lore. Clan warriors have high mortality rates & when a warrior dies, he is replaced seamlessly.

You seem to forget that Clan warriors are the result of mass production. True out of the 100 embryos (for example) pushed out in a sibko only a few become warriors but because they are so elite, the quality beats out or at the very least, equals to, the quantity of the IS troops. Also whoever does not becomes warrior makes up the others castes. Your entire composition of your civilization is ordered & that order is fulfilled on a large scale. Let us also remember the Clans did not come on a mission of destruction but salvation. If they were focused on killing everything, the lore would read quite differently.

As far as rebellions go I think a typical example would be Falcon Guard if I am not mistaken. The whole scenario is too huge to paste here but to sum it up they got plastered & this was with Aidan Pryde who felt at least some small sort of sympathy for therm. Remember in the Blood of Kerensky when the Jaguars were patrolling for the person(s) who set off the bomb, then killed the monk who falsely confessed because they would have killed many people had he not? Bleed who out? You mean themselves?

#163 Stormwolf

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:17 PM

View PostJaroth Winson, on 22 October 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

How do you bleed the Clans dry when they are the ultimate scavengers who waste NOTHING.


To expand on this, Kerensky picked the Snow Raven as a totem animal since it's the ultimate scavenger in its natural habitat. The ability to scavenge and the abhorrence to wasting material are as much part of the Clans as things like zellbrigen or sibko social norms.

#164 Lorcan Lladd

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:42 PM

I believe that the actual question is whether a Crusader or Warden Clan would make it to Terra first, and how many systems, planets and factions it would have subjugated or incorporated along the way - we are discussing the mid-to-long term here.

#165 Stormwolf

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:44 AM

View PostLorcan Lladd, on 22 October 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I believe that the actual question is whether a Crusader or Warden Clan would make it to Terra first, and how many systems, planets and factions it would have subjugated or incorporated along the way - we are discussing the mid-to-long term here.


I don't have access to my books right now, but I recall that they would have reached Terra in 3053. Now this calculation didn't include the year of peace, so it would have been 3054 with Leo Showers kicking the bucket. There is also a good indication that Clan Wolf was covering way more ground then the other Clans, so it would have eventually been a race between them and the Jade Falcons IMO.

Now having Clan Wolf as the IlClan would have been a good thing for the Inner Sphere since it would effectively mean a halt to the Invasion. Ulric Kerensky could have contacted Jaime Wolf to get the Successor States around the table for potential peace talks like Jaime did at Outreach. Factions like the CC would have been quickly crushed if they decided to be a stick in the mud here. I could also see the Steel Vipers backing up Clan Wolf in the Grand Council here.

A Jade Falcon IlClan would launch a all out Invasion of the IS. Those guys could activate the Homeworld Clans extra military assets and would quickly overrun the entire north of the IS. Holding Terra would pretty much allow for striking at any IS faction due to its central location.

#166 Aaron DeChavilier

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:48 AM

View PostTimuroslav, on 22 October 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Having the last word doesn't mean you win, or are smart; it just makes you look stubborn.


QFT and is a missed point on most people on forums.

#167 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:59 AM

Let us clear up this nonsense about how after the Clans wipe out the real fighters, that a rebellion is somehow going to surplant them. These are small portions of two rebellions/resistance as the whole thing would be too huge to paste here.




Quote

"This is Star Colonel Aidan Pryde of the Nega Garrison Cluster," Aidan announced. He could see by the man's startled reaction that Joanna must have turned the speakers up to full volume so that his voice would no doubt resound across the clearing, shaking buildings and unsettling eardrums. It was a good ploy and might help achieve Aidan's goal of ending this uprising bloodlessly.

"Identify yourself, rebel!"

For a moment it looked like the unshaven ice ferret of a man was ready to disappear behind the wall, as people often did when confronted by ghostlike visitations. Then he seemed to get command of himself, slowing raising the bullhorn to his mouth. With his face so enlarged in the viewing area, it was
disconcerting to hear the weak and tinny voice coming from it.

"I am Jared Mahoney. I am a survivor of the Vreeport militia and, as such, represent the community in dealings with oppressors like you."

Aidan winced, first at the fact that, like all Inner Sphere citizens, the man had a surname, one that was merely passed on through generations without being earned in a Bloodname battle. Though he realized that naming customs were different here, Aidan did not like to think of anyone other than a Bloodnamed warrior having a surname.

"Jared Mahoney, I order you to end this uprising and surrender to the BattleMech Star that you see near the walls of your city. Those five 'Mechs could level your small community in mere minutes. Your continued resistance is useless."

"But you are making slaves of us!"

"Bondsmen are not slaves. Their duty to us is only temporary. Slaves are purchased and are theoretically slaves for all their—"

Jared Mahoney's voice grew fierce. "Do not try to dazzle me with semantics!" he shouted. "We do not wish to leave Quarell, but you take us. That is slavery, no matter how you try to rationalize it."

"I am willing to discuss the matter with you, Jared Mahoney. However, I must remind you that we have the destructive power to make all negotiations meaningless. Surrender yourself and your people."

Inexplicably, Jared Mahoney did not reply immediately. While still trying to juggle the bullhorn with one hand, he reached down with the other arm to pick up two children, a boy and a girl. The children were as red-faced as the man.

"These are my children," he announced. "My son and my daughter. They are innocent. Would you kill them, merely to assert your authority?"

Aidan cut off communication and turned to Melanie Truit. "Why would he want us to kill his children?"

"He doesn't want you to kill them. He has no understanding of Clan concepts so he cannot understand that the innocence of his children is of no consequence to a Clan warrior. By displaying them, he thinks that you will back off and not kill anyone else in order to protect the children."

Aidan shook his head in puzzlement. "I do not wish to kill any of them, children or adult. But there is nothing in our Clan way that says I must have an emotional response to the idea of children as hostages, especially when they are merely the enemy's children."


Jade Phoenix Trilogy - Falcon Guard


Quote

One of the armored warriors stepped forward. "People of Uramachi precinct, we have traced a criminal to this place. He committed the most wasteful and careless act of planting a bomb in a place where civilian and military personnel were present. The explosion caused great loss of life—both to our peopleand to yours. This will not continue."

The infantryman pointed to the hovel nearest the Daishi. "If the individual responsible is not turned over to us in the next two minutes, everyone in this house will die."

Shin cuffed Motochika roughly. "Fool, see what you have done?"

The younger man looked at Shin as though the Mech Warrior were mad. "You don't expect me to go out there, do you? I struck a blow for our freedom. They're bluffing. They won't destroy that house."

Shin stared hard at the man beside him. "You best hope they don't. If they do, and if you refuse to turn yourself over, I'll shoot you myself and dump your body in the street."

As the deadline neared, faces appeared in the windows and doorways of the street, including the house designated for destruction. The Smoke Jaguar infantryman bowed in the direction of the street, then turned toward the dwelling. At the same time, the Daishi swung its elbows back and locked its weapons down on the wood-scrap and tar-paper hovel.

Motochika turned away, but Shin grabbed a handful of his hair and forced him to look out the window.
"Watch!"

At the large laser's hellish touch, the hovel exploded into an instant bonfire. Crackling flames appeared from everywhere at once, rising above the DaishTs head, then dropping down again as a hail of autocannon slugs flattened the building. A woman, her hair and clothing aflame, dashed screaming from the door, but one burst of laser bolts from the invader infantryman silenced her cries forever.

The acrid scent of singed hair and burning flesh made Motochika tear away from Shin's grasp and vomit in the corner. Shin ignored him as the Daishi stepped forward and snuffed the flames beneath its flat metal feet. The infantry spokesman again addressed the street.

"People of Uramachi precinct, we have traced a criminal to this place. He committed the most wasteful and careless act of planting a bomb in a place where civilian and military personnel were present. The explosion caused great loss of life—both to our people and yours. This will not continue."
The soldier pointed to the next hovel. "If the individual responsible is not turned over to us in the next two minutes, everyone in this house will die."

Shin's mouth went sour. "The same words, Motochika, and the same gestures. Are you going to take responsibility for your actions, or are you going to let more people die?"

Motochika, still holding himself on hands and knees, looked weakly over his shoulder at the Kuroi Kiri MechWarrior. "No one else has dared to strike at them as I have. The Old Man authorized expeditions to steal weapons and supplies from them, but we have never hurt them. While he has been content with
thievery, they have been kidnapping our people. If I am the only man with true courage, I cannot allow myself to be sacrificed because no one else will actually fight these invaders!"

Shin fought to control the fury Motochika's words aroused. "What courage does it take to plant a bomb and kill innocents as well as the guilty? You are nothing more than a common murderer! And how is it you claim courage when you huddle here like a whipped cur? There must be more than courage. There must be intelligence and honor in your actions. You are a child striking out blindly, then expecting others to take responsibility for your mistakes."


Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Lethal Heritage

Long story short, Aidan felt sympathy for the people & did not wish to handle the matter in usual Clan fashion.



Quote

"There is an uprising in Vreeport," he said. "Some citizens who have found a cache of Inner Sphere weapons are now perched on the city walls, shooting at any warrior who comes near. And there seems to be a BattleMech standing in the middle of the fortress. That's all I know so far."

Aidan sighed. It was the normal kind of mop-up operation that had apparently become his specialty.

"Can we negotiate with them?"

"It has been tried, according to the report. There seems to be only one choice."

"Annihilation?"

"Yes."

"Well, perhaps that will not be necessary. Let us go. Star Commander Joanna, now may be a good time for your Star to get its feet wet on Quarell. This mission is yours."

Joanna touched Aidan's arm as he walked by.

"We are eager for battle, Star Colonel, but the general directive says to be merciless in dealing with uprisings."

"That is true."

"So why not annihilation? This is apparently only a small guerrilla band."

"They are our enemy, yes, but that does not make them less human. We must treat them with the same respect we give our foes in BattleMechs."

"But do we not strive to annihilate them?"

"Only when we have to."


In the Falcons' case, they ended up having to kill the civilians. Now on the flip side, the Jaguars just started killing people from the get go. Now this has been seen in many movies so I am sure you are familiar with it, a guy with a gun is surrounded by a mob of people. He is usually an officer of the law. The mob wants to lynch the criminal & the lawman refuses to oblige. They threaten to rush him as he cannot possibly stop them all. I think the best example was Kevin Costner as Wyatt Earp. He said something along the lines of I got me a six-shooter, so y'all are gonna get me but which six of you gets taken out before that happens? Nobody rushes in.

Now instead of the muzzle of a six shooter Colt, you imagine the muzzle on the arm of a Dire Wolf. Get the point?

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 October 2012 - 09:09 AM.


#168 tankermottind

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:15 AM

View Postn0rdiCZ, on 22 October 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Objectivly seen easy ....
the could in real only because of mr stackpole & mr Pardoes History line thru 65 novels :)

an example ?

the Wehrmacht in 1940 (Clans) vs IS (France)
better tactics
better equip
better morale
wins

France was a smaller country than Germany with less population and a less developed industrial base.

There are individual worlds in the Inner Sphere who have more people than all the 3050 Clans put together.

A lot of people are completely underestimating how badly disadvantaged the Clans are here. If the enemy outnumbered them 1000:1 it would be an improvement over their actual situation.

Edited by tankermottind, 23 October 2012 - 06:20 AM.


#169 Stormwolf

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:18 AM

View PostJaroth Winson, on 23 October 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Let us clear up this nonsense about how after the Clans wipe out the real fighters, that a rebellion is somehow going to surplant them. These are small portions of two rebellions/resistance as the whole thing would be too huge to paste here.

Jade Phoenix Trilogy - Falcon Guard




Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Lethal Heritage

Long story short, Aidan felt sympathy for the people & did not wish to handle the matter in usual Clan fashion.

In the Falcons' case, they ended up having to kill the civilians. Now on the flip side, the Jaguars just started killing people from the get go. Now this has been seen in many movies so I am sure you are familiar with it, a guy with a gun is surrounded by a mob of people. He is usually an officer of the law. The mob wants to lynch the criminal & the lawman refuses to oblige. They threaten to rush him as he cannot possibly stop them all. I think the best example was Kevin Costner as Wyatt Earp. He said something along the lines of I got me a six-shooter, so y'all are gonna get me but which six of you gets taken out before that happens? Nobody rushes in.

Now instead of the muzzle of a six shooter Colt, you imagine the muzzle on the arm of a Dire Wolf. Get the point?



Now contrast this to the Inner Sphere powers, the DC in Mercenary's Star was moving Verthandi Women offworld to serve in "pleasure houses" after burning down their villages.

The Clan method is more along the lines of "don't screw with us and we'll get along fine".

#170 IceSerpent

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:44 AM

View PostAlexander Joe Eisenkreuz Steiner, on 22 October 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

The atomic bomb argument is really flawed. First of all the japanese government were already ready to surrender BEFORE Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were only looking for a way "save their face" in the process. They were already talking to the Russians in that matter. Of course the US knew that, and therefore where in quite a hurry to drop their bombs. Because they really wanted a fieldtest. And they wanted one for a uranium and a plutonium bomb. But they knew the never could drop it, after the japanese surrendered. The atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were only a fieldtest an a showoff. But nothing relevant for the outcome of the war.


I certainly agree that US used nukes because they wanted a field test, but I believe Japanese started thinking about surrender only after the threat of being bombed literally back into the stone age became imminent. Whether it would have been done by nukes or conventional munitions makes no difference, as nobody really knew all the effects of a nuclear blast at the time. Prior to that Japanese were prepared and willing to make a heroic last stand and die for their country in a samurai fashion, but when your opponent makes extensive use of their long range bombers instead of invading (which US was more than capable of doing), it doesn't really qualify as epic last stand for the defenders.

#171 dal10

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:20 AM

it was estimated that we would take a million casualties if we tried to conventionally stormed japan.

#172 Aaron DeChavilier

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:25 AM

View Postdal10, on 23 October 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

it was estimated that we would take a million casualties if we tried to conventionally stormed japan.

naw, just roll in with your best units. Defeat enough soldiers, and the japanese populous won't mind that you've taken over. That's how it works. :P

#173 IceSerpent

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:36 AM

View PostAaron DeChavilier, on 23 October 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

naw, just roll in with your best units. Defeat enough soldiers, and the japanese populous won't mind that you've taken over. That's how it works. :P


There were no rebellions in Japan after they surrendered as far as I know. So yeah, that's how it worked indeed.

Edited by IceSerpent, 23 October 2012 - 08:37 AM.


#174 Aaron DeChavilier

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:47 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 23 October 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:


There were no rebellions in Japan after they surrendered as far as I know. So yeah, that's how it worked indeed.

<^---ignores most of the context this thread covered about Japan's capitulation>
you know what? I'm done, sure the clans could hold the Inner Sphere forever. Everyone lived in peace except the warrior class which created the literal equivalent of a Valhalla. Thats what you clan posters want to hear isn't it? That the clans are perfect in every way, the best thing to happen to Battletech, and the only faction that really matters; infallible, omniscient, and prescient, all layed out on page 3.1459 of the book "The Clans: We're right forever."

Guess I remembered the reason why I left this subfora for awhile. Last time I indulge myself on a clan-related thought exercise. Hard to do a thought exercise on a faction that does not obey any internal rules of a universe according to its proponents.

#175 IceSerpent

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:50 AM

View PostAaron DeChavilier, on 23 October 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

<^---ignores most of the context this thread covered about Japan's capitulation>
you know what? I'm done, sure the clans could hold the Inner Sphere forever. Everyone lived in peace except the warrior class which created the literal equivalent of a Valhalla. Thats what you clan posters want to hear isn't it? That the clans are perfect in every way, the best thing to happen to Battletech, and the only faction that really matters; infallible, omniscient, and prescient, all layed out on page 3.1459 of the book "The Clans: We're right forever."

Guess I remembered the reason why I left this subfora for awhile. Last time I indulge myself on a clan-related thought exercise. Hard to do a thought exercise on a faction that does not obey any internal rules of a universe according to its proponents.


Uhm...bye?

#176 Diresquid

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:06 AM

they could hold it but it would not be the innersphere as it is known, probably mass labour gangs to reduce the number of spheroids, but the resulting terrorism would require a change in clan tactics and who knows if they would as a result of holding the IS remain the clans as they are

#177 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:12 AM

He flees! *points & laughs*

#178 Vodkavaiator

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:56 AM

View PostStormwolf, on 23 October 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Now contrast this to the Inner Sphere powers, the DC in Mercenary's Star was moving Verthandi Women offworld to serve in "pleasure houses" after burning down their villages.

The Clan method is more along the lines of "don't screw with us and we'll get along fine".



I think it is rather clear neither the Clans nor Inner Sphere Great Houses are exactly the good guys. (Hell if anything I would argue in general they are both the "bad guys" considering they essentially try to constantly start wars where the average person is going to suffer, mostly for selfish reasons or insane political/religious/cultural beliefs).

But to claim that the Clans simply leave people their own devices in peace is about as bad as saying that the Inner Sphere are heroes of the Battletech Universe. I think it is a shame that we always have to return to making one side out to be better than the other. I mean objectively there are aspects of the Inner Sphere that are very bad, but I don't exactly relish the thought of being a civilian in Clan controlled space either.

Both sides of the argument could easily start quoting incidents of ********, murder or various other crimes against humanity that were performed.

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 23 October 2012 - 10:58 AM.


#179 guardian wolf

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:17 AM

Well to put it bluntly, is a short term assault, and conquering of Terra possible. Yes. Wolf would have done it had our Crusader brethren not foolishly tried to stop us. Could they have then held that ground. Depends. If you have a mindset like Wolf was when it was a Warden faction mostly, then it is possible. As many of the planets supported Wolf, when it arrived due to the fact that Wolf only had them change flags, and made the rich get back to work. It's when you try to work the Crusader philosophy, that the holding of ground falls apart. You would quickly rack up a list of enemies, and everyone would be willing to take pot shots at you. Now, say that these planets had something of in between. There is a tolerance level that most citizens would be able to deal with. You stay under it, they stay happy, and continue to support you. You don't, then they will not only not support you, but also do everything in their power to make your life worse. That is the simplicity of it.

#180 Evgeny Bear

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:32 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 23 October 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:


I certainly agree that US used nukes because they wanted a field test, but I believe Japanese started thinking about surrender only after the threat of being bombed literally back into the stone age became imminent. Whether it would have been done by nukes or conventional munitions makes no difference, as nobody really knew all the effects of a nuclear blast at the time. Prior to that Japanese were prepared and willing to make a heroic last stand and die for their country in a samurai fashion, but when your opponent makes extensive use of their long range bombers instead of invading (which US was more than capable of doing), it doesn't really qualify as epic last stand for the defenders.


Thats what they wanted you to belive in. The same way people justify wars for democracy and what not, to hide their shamefull plots before the masses. And thats what most americans do to be redeemed from the sins of their fathers.
Even Oppenheimer was shocked and soon regret what he has done.

just had to say that.





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