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joystick flight system HOTAS configuration config controller

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#241 evilC

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:42 AM

Well nothing makes me happier to finally see PGI paying some attention to input devices, it has been a very long time coming but now that we have your attention there are some very serious concerns that need addressing...

You haven't finished the basic controls yet
As something of an expert on fixing issues with MWO's controls (2 input apps I wrote for MWO, Fire Control and UJR, get used 5000+ times a month) and having written numerous scripts to help people fix annoyances with the MWO interface, I feel pretty well placed to come up with a list of things that really need to be provided by PGI rather than coded by enthusiasts such as myself. Please, take a look at the following:

Mouse Wheel
You broke binding anything to mouse wheel over a year ago and it is still not fixed.

Zoom
Zoom is a usability nightmare, especially for newbs. An annoying toggle system plus advanced zoom that if you activate it while in zoom 3, when you close it pops you back out to zoom 1.
FIX IT! There should be THREE zoom bindings at minimum:
Zoom in - hit this at zoom 3 and nothing should happen, unless you have adv zoom module.
Zoom out - hit this at zoom 1 and nothing should happen.
Zoom toggle - the current system for people who want a 1-button solution.
Default binding should be wheel up for zoom in, wheel down for zoom out.

Arm Lock Toggle
Arm lock toggle is not a toggle but a momentary. Make it a proper toggle.

Arm Lock causes inconsistent mouse behavior
With arm lock off, if you move the mouse quicker than your mech can twist, the viewport (head look) moves to where you would have twisted to, then the torso catches up to where the viewport is looking.
With arm lock on, instead of twisting the view, it "throws away" this extra movement.
Until you understand what is going on, this can be confusing and will also interfere with your ability to improve aim through muscle memory.
Also, how will this work with absolute input? Surely keeping things as they are would break absolute stick mode? If the user is also using TrackIR, how will this work?
Surely you will need a re-design here...

Chain fire
Does not work as expected.
Ignore the reasons why, but lets say I put 2AC2 in group 1 in chain fire mode.
Lets use the old figure of 500ms for the fire rate of the AC2, so halved because we have 2: 250ms.
If I hold the fire button, shots come out at 500ms, not 250ms.
If I click (manually, or using a macro) at 250ms, it does not fire at 250ms.
The only way to fire them at 250ms is to use two weapon groups - either 1 in each weapon group, or both weapons in both groups and chainfire on.
Conversely, UACs seem to default to double shot mode. When fire is held with a UAC, it should single shot. To double shot, you should need to double-tap...

TAG Toggle / UAC Toggle
I think you need to introduce a "weapon toggle" system - a simple method would be <shift button> + <weapon group button> = toggle. So for a group containing UACs, toggling it would turn on/off double shot, for a TAG it would toggle it on/off.

Stick stuff

Absolute input
as mentioned above.

Interruption of controls
Make sure that when you open the map etc, that stick controls do not stop working / the mech does not stop.
Last time I checked, this was the case.

Non-central throttle mid-point
Throttles are generally modelled on plane controls, and these are unlikely to have detents ("Notches" - places where the throttle stops) in the middle of the range. Usually they are around the 33% mark, and often one near the top too (For "afterburner").
Consider some way to tie in to this - you do not need 50% of your throttle for forwards, 50% for back, the lower third or so for reverse mode would be plenty.
The upper "afterburner" detent would also be good for MASC.

Head look changes
With the coming implementation of TrackIR, I guess this is in the works anyway.
In order to do that "right", you will need to un-couple head look from the arms (ie when you head look around, arms do not follow like the do when you hold CTRL currently).
Allow the user to also bind head look to an axis (in either absolute or relative mode) OR Hat (POV) switch OR keyboard/button.
Relative mode / keyboard / POV / button for people without head trackers, so the can use a digital input (POV, Button, key) or analog thumbstick to look around.
Absolute mode would be for TrackIR emulation. Naturalpoint are getting pretty rampant about people using their API for 3rd party trackers and unless you wish to either leave some of your users out in the cold, or wind up naturalpoint (By doing the "pretend to be IL2 trick" and removing the call to the encryption function), you have to use the encrypted API.
By allowing head look to be controlled by an absolute axis, pretty much any head tracking system (homebrew / kinect / FaceTrackNoIR / real TrackIR) should work with it by emulating a joystick.

Make sure multiple control schemes work together
For example - torso twist controlled by stick, but arms (fine aim) controlled by mouse.

Multi-Stage Triggers
Some sticks have dual stage triggers. These would be nice to be able to use with, for example, UACs - first stage is single shot, second stage is double shot. Implementing my proposed "weapon toggle" system should allow this.

[Edited to add "weapon toggle" suggestion, multi-stage triggger, UAC modes]

Edited by evilC, 18 April 2014 - 07:27 AM.


#242 Turbo Corvair

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 09:49 PM

Guys I can confirm that Foust knows what he is talking about. Check out his zero-order joystick setup, it's one of a kind as far as I know. I would echo all that Foust and Loc Nar said but I'd also like to add one item I don't think they mentioned.

We need to be able to program a curve for the joystick axes. Thrustmasters software for T16000M, Cougar, and Warthog allows this externally as I believe CH also does but if PGI wants to get serious about joystick support this needs to be available for everyone.

In order to get accurate aiming near the center of the stick travel but still be able to turn the torso rapidly when needed you need to have an adjustable curve so the stick is less sensitive near the center and more sensitivity the farther you move it. In RC airplanes we call this "expo" (as in exponential) and in War Thunder they call it "nonlinearity".

#243 Reno Blade

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 11:16 PM

Aye, I second that Turbo.
One of the things that was nasty to set up was a good mix of sensitivity and gain for stick/mouse that does the job for light/med mechs as well as the slower heavies/assaults, because you want to be able to turn your torso with one move of the mouse/stick, but still need to have the precision to actually aim.

Using a Saitek (last time I tried it), I could only play with slow mechs, because of the huge difference in aiming precision compared to a mouse.

#244 Kilo 40

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:11 AM

View PostReno Blade, on 19 April 2014 - 11:16 PM, said:

Using a Saitek (last time I tried it), I could only play with slow mechs, because of the huge difference in aiming precision compared to a mouse.


"huge difference" is an understatement.

#245 Rashhaverak

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:54 AM

View PostMatthew Craig, on 16 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Quick question for the community is there anything still preventing you from running the joystick setup of your choice, are there any settings you'd like to see exposed to help you better tune your setups.

Thanks

Some time back I tried to setup the game with joystick and foot pedals. I wanted the foot pedals to control turning, but I quickly found that the digital input (on or off) from the pedals made it impossible to make fine adjustments when turning. Pressing on the pedals with your feet is just not as fine a touch as the tap of a keyboard key. As a result, I quickly ditched the foot pedals and joystick for the keyboard and mouse.

I'd love to try the foot pedals and joystick again, but it would only be viable if the game allowed analog input to turning and if there was a way to set up some sort of input curve to allow fine pedal movement at the low and greater movement at the high end. Unfortunately, the software that comes with the pedals isn't great. I'd be delighted if the game had an interface that would help.

#246 shamandgg

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:34 AM

Rashhaverak, I do not understand your trouble, I use Flight pedals to control leg turn of my mech - with full control - I mean analog control and MWO is supporting that from within basic settings. It allows me to control angular rate of turn, what digital/keyboard guys can't!


I almost completed my cockpit.
All I am missing are STATE ON, STATE OFF commands and momentaries

F.e. states for on/off
ARM LOCK ON, ARM LOCK OFF
ECM ON DISTR, ECM ON ECCM, ECM OFF
F.e. momentaries
Night vision ON,
Heat Vision ON,
Normal Vision (I can't deal with the toggles)

Edited by shamandgg, 27 April 2014 - 03:36 AM.


#247 shamandgg

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:43 AM

I am not going to aim with my mouse, I look forward for aiming with my own Eyeballs MK1. Mouse will be soon eliminated from my pit hopefully thanks to below devices:


Edited by shamandgg, 27 April 2014 - 03:46 AM.


#248 FluorescentBlack

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:34 AM

Yeah. I don't like all this mouse stuff. If joysticks don't start working soon ill just use my eyes.

#249 Matthew Craig

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:02 AM

Just wanted to acknowledge this thread and say thanks for the feedback I'm hoping to get a chance to action some of the suggestions fairly soon, no ETA just yet but it hasn't dropped off my radar.

#250 Dark DeLaurel

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 08:28 PM

View PostMatthew Craig, on 27 May 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Just wanted to acknowledge this thread and say thanks for the feedback I'm hoping to get a chance to action some of the suggestions fairly soon, no ETA just yet but it hasn't dropped off my radar.


Whatever happened to that Razer Artemis controller?

#251 VX Seraphin

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 03:44 PM

YAHOO!!!
finally proper analog axis!!
back in the day ,I used 2 Saitek cyborg gold joysticks for control across all m#3,m#4 variants
as I am a heavy equipment operator,this felt the best way to move heavy mechs :(
I looked forward to mwo could not wait to drop again,in what looked to be a very good upgrade to previous versions
even bought a new set joy sticks,CH flight sticks
as it turned out not all analog axis where supported,and after trying various workarounds,I decided to let the game mature,which I had no doubt it would
so after 1500 hours of SimCity,I decided to check back and here we are
my axis are working AWSOME and I am getting that evil grin back
CH by the way has an incredible program for the joysticks,you can make them do anything you want,buttons and all
an advanced scripting program is even supplied,which is beyond my scope,but for others would be the bomb
so after playing around with the CH programming and the abilities given by pgi,I could not be happier!!
thanx guys,I knew you would do it!! *salutes*

VX_Seraphin

#252 Amro One

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 03:54 PM

How about you DON'T play with a joystick.

I have watched way to many player with a joystick suck at aiming and bring the team down.

Stop ruining the game for the rest of us and play with a mouse.

#253 dangerzone

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 04:11 PM

View PostJazriel, on 28 June 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

How about you DON'T play with a joystick.

I have watched way to many player with a joystick suck at aiming and bring the team down.

Stop ruining the game for the rest of us and play with a mouse.



Me pulling in an average of 2-3 kills and 350-800dmg per match while using a x52 hotas joystick wishes to questions your statement.

EDIT: I know you meant it to a general audience, and not any one person in particular. Sadly, not everyone is as fortunate with joystick maneuvering skills. It's either you can joystick or can't joystick and too many players can't joystick well and joystick anyway. (Yes I used joystick as a verb. shut up)

Edited by dangerzone, 28 June 2014 - 04:13 PM.


#254 VX Seraphin

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 04:46 PM

heheh
my right joystick is mapped as mouse axis *evil grin*
now I have 2 triggers to pull when I load out the lbx *eviler grin*

VX_Seraphin

#255 a gaijin

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 01:50 PM

View PostJazriel, on 28 June 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

How about you DON'T play with a joystick.

I have watched way to many player with a joystick suck at aiming and bring the team down.

Stop ruining the game for the rest of us and play with a mouse.

Dude, shut up. You have no right to tell people how to enjoy playing MWO.




Side note: I'm currently a mouse (TT) and joystick (all other controls) Mechwarrior with the intent of moving to strictly joysticks after the code makes joystick TT control as smooth and controlled as the mouse's is.

#256 VX Seraphin

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 03:14 PM

Side note: I'm currently a mouse (TT) and joystick (all other controls) Mechwarrior with the intent of moving to strictly joysticks after the code makes joystick TT control as smooth and controlled as the mouse's is.

CH,s programing allows you to emulate a mouse with your joystick if you like
right down to individual axis, with unique curves.
by tweaking the axis you can get pretty much get the feel you are looking for
for the torso functions I find this is superior to just using the analog x,y
no more mouse *two step* when I am trying to get twisted from one side to the other
I am sure that most current joysticks from all the big players have these capabilities in their programming

VX_Seraphin

#257 a gaijin

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 04:20 PM

View PostVX Seraphin, on 29 June 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Side note: I'm currently a mouse (TT) and joystick (all other controls) Mechwarrior with the intent of moving to strictly joysticks after the code makes joystick TT control as smooth and controlled as the mouse's is.

CH,s programing allows you to emulate a mouse with your joystick if you like
right down to individual axis, with unique curves.
by tweaking the axis you can get pretty much get the feel you are looking for
for the torso functions I find this is superior to just using the analog x,y
no more mouse *two step* when I am trying to get twisted from one side to the other
I am sure that most current joysticks from all the big players have these capabilities in their programming

VX_Seraphin

VX_Seraphin, thank you very much for the information and guidance. Much appreciation!

For torso twist control, how does it feel with the default settings?
I ask because I liked how MW3's default joystick torso-twist control felt "out of the box" and am hoping I can just plug-and-play without too much time spent tweaking due to my problem of (currently) only having 3~4 hours a week total to spend in game.

Thanks again :)

#258 VX Seraphin

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 04:48 PM

For torso twist control, how does it feel with the default settings

it works pretty good.
there is just a bigger dead zone then I personally care for
it is not as good as MechWarrior 3,that was very nice and smooth between both axis for moving the torso thru it,s range
I tried reducing the dead zone as much as possible and various other tweaks,but the best feel I got was mapping the mouse to the axis
that gave me the nice fluid accelerations/decelerations I was looking for
just like m#3 ;)

VX_Seraphin

#259 MECHWARRlOR

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 01:35 AM

http://youtu.be/w-HYN8lyeUY

I have no problem with my control system B)

Edited by MECHWARRlOR, 01 July 2014 - 01:45 AM.


#260 evilC

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 10:08 AM

The only problem with stick to mouse emulation is that it can only properly work with arm lock off.

If you turn on arm lock, any TT input that would require twisting faster than the torso can twist is *thrown away*.

ie if you move the mouse 100px, but the torso can only twist 50px's worth of distance in that time, it ignores the remaining 50px of twist.
With arm lock off, it would slew the view by 50px, and the torso would catch up over time.

So with arm lock on, your stick to mouse emulation will drift out of alignment.





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