60 replies to this topic

[IceSerpent]

Corbon Zackery, on 30 October 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Its been suggested and ignored by the dev. team to create some bigger maps. with muti objective to break things up into solo and lance fights.

One I suggested was a map called Battleline with a river running horizontal through the map that had 3 objective markers and 2 bases.

They just not done any chages to the maps its the same 4 small maps run over and over again.

It certainly is an interesting concept, but current crop of puggies is utterly unable to defend just ONE base, you can imagine the amount of QQ we would see if they had to capture / defend 2-3 objectives. Your suggestion would be a good game mode for 8v8 (or 12v12) team-only queue though.

[Jason McComrade]

Congzilla, on 30 October 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

You obviously know absolutely nothing about the TT rules.

Tells me the someone who just talks about TT and then cant bring up anything solid. do you even know how much stirr it would bring up when an enemy union dropship tries to land on a planet? you know that a union can carry a company (12 mechs + 2 fighters) right? with that much mech many times garrison planets have been overrun and taken over. and 2 leopard class dropships can bring up 8 mechs and 4 fighters... still a big thing that cannot be overseen. (on many occasions in BT universe there have been merc units garrisoned with just 1 lance and some platoon of foot soldiers. (best example the begin of gray death legion) so if you just dont understand the meaning 8 mechs trampeding around and loading out rockets and laser and PPC and whatever to each other than that is a serious thing not a recon sh it... so firt try to understand what is actually being talking about... were talking here about a full scale war scenario... and there you just cant pop in and say "hey cool we take this place now and then they give up and we win the war".... that is the only thing a mo ron would say

[Jason McComrade]

Lin Shai, on 30 October 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

If you ever play a team that knows what it is doing you will lose giving up tonnage like that, yes. You are handicapping your team from the start.

If when making my scouting run I see you sitting on the base all guard-y and doing nothing ... your game just got very lonely because I'll immediately let my team know then turn around and go give my team the advantage of an extra mech at the front lines. In effect, you just did my job for me and I didn't even have to run all the way to your base. You might as well be an AFK'er. I guess at least you get to die last?

Tactics are always fluid and situational awareness is key. If your team loses its lights and the enemy still has theirs (and I can tell you, that's another job of lights - going after their enemy counterparts) you need to be aware of that. At that point you either need to push their base or fall back to defend yours.

This isn't team deathmatch (thankfully) and actually requires people to play as a team. If everyone stays at the base, that's a valid tactic ... but splitting up your team and leaving any significant tonnage there is a recipe for fail.

My dear friend I have readed many of your comments but in all I have seen 1 common part; You have to be in a team wich is in voice contact with each other, so warnings can be done fast and can be responded accordingly.. so the problem here is that many of the players in here are not pre grouped randomized team players and therefore they dont have any voice communication with each other.So for example during the fight nobody can expect from someone to call help while full on hands... he cant stop and write for help and then move on, every second counts you know that well.

Some call that teamed up parties premade but that just is not right, coz in the terminology premade 2 parties join a game and one party looses with fully intent (i.e: World of Warcraft and some other games) so that some other party can farm whatever is given... in this game this is not the fact... the only problem is that most randomised players play on their own behalf and doesnt cooperate (and mostly cant cooperate coz they're just focused on the thing on their front or their mind and maybe cant read the map etc.) so the random group is mostly doomed to loose... and on the long tour that is just annoying... I bet nobody in here likes to be cannonfodder.

[WarPickle]

So what exactly would people be Assaulting on an ASSAULT map if they take away bases?? Pfft wait for the other game modes...

[Lin Shai]

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

My dear friend I have readed many of your comments but in all I have seen 1 common part; You have to be in a team wich is in voice contact with each other, so warnings can be done fast and can be responded accordingly.. so the problem here is that many of the players in here are not pre grouped randomized team players and therefore they dont have any voice communication with each other.So for example during the fight nobody can expect from someone to call help while full on hands... he cant stop and write for help and then move on, every second counts you know that well.

How odd, because when I'm PUGing I don't seem to have a problem typing "going to base - don't go back plz" as I turn my Jenner to address the problem. Nor do I have an issue typing numerous other things, like 'form up D5 and wait", or 'push to base, or 'Tagging base to pull them back - don't follow'.

Rarely do PUGers listen but that doesn't prevent me from trying. When PUGs have people on them that know what they're doing, they steamroll the PUGs that don't - that's generally the way it works and I'm not sure how anyone is going to 'nerf' that.

Does voice comm give you an advantage? Well, YES ... you don't have to type and play at the same time. I play on TS3 quite a bit but mainly for the fact that I like the social aspect of it. Why some people refuse to do so is beyond me considering there's no barrier to entry and it literally takes < 2 min to get settled in a group of random people using comms.

Quote

Some call that teamed up parties premade but that just is not right, coz in the terminology premade 2 parties join a game and one party looses with fully intent (i.e: World of Warcraft and some other games) so that some other party can farm whatever is given... in this game this is not the fact... the only problem is that most randomised players play on their own behalf and doesnt cooperate (and mostly cant cooperate coz they're just focused on the thing on their front or their mind and maybe cant read the map etc.) so the random group is mostly doomed to loose... and on the long tour that is just annoying... I bet nobody in here likes to be cannonfodder.

It's a team game. When I'm PUGing, the #1 reason (easily 90% of the time) my team loses is because they aren't playing as a team. Usually they run off in random directions to die and never type a word into chat. Or all pile into the cave ... or charge the enemy one at a time ... or don't focus fire on one enemy, instead shooting at ramdom targets. The list goes on and on. Every bit of it simply not being very good at the game.

Yes, if people insist on playing with seven random people they don't know, don't use chat, don't coordinate or cooperate, they're are going to lose in this game. Unless the other team happens to be just as terribad, of course.

I'm not sure how you "fix" that, other than trying to explain to people that this isn't quake deathmatch.

Edited by Lin Shai, 30 October 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[LarryDaBird]

BasicInfantry, on 30 October 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

So what exactly would people be Assaulting on an ASSAULT map if they take away bases?? Pfft wait for the other game modes...

Agreed bases need to stay but the other game modes well it took WoT a year and a half to put those in and they all sucked, so I wouldn't hold your breath or think they are going to make it any better. Just need bigger better maps, like 2 or so a month would be good to at least give a little variety.

[Capp]

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Tells me the someone who just talks about TT and then cant bring up anything solid. do you even know how much stirr it would bring up when an enemy union dropship tries to land on a planet? you know that a union can carry a company (12 mechs + 2 fighters) right? with that much mech many times garrison planets have been overrun and taken over. and 2 leopard class dropships can bring up 8 mechs and 4 fighters... still a big thing that cannot be overseen. (on many occasions in BT universe there have been merc units garrisoned with just 1 lance and some platoon of foot soldiers. (best example the begin of gray death legion) so if you just dont understand the meaning 8 mechs trampeding around and loading out rockets and laser and PPC and whatever to each other than that is a serious thing not a recon sh it... so firt try to understand what is actually being talking about... were talking here about a full scale war scenario... and there you just cant pop in and say "hey cool we take this place now and then they give up and we win the war".... that is the only thing a mo ron would say

This game, and the novels for that matter, are based on the TT game, which is why people keep mentioning the TT game. The novels are fluff, this game is not based on the novels.

This game is currently 8 vs 8 because that's what the servers/netcode can handle at the moment. (Even though sometimes it seems like only barely so.)

"Capturing the base" is just a generic action it could in reality represent many things from stealing info and transmitting it, freeing POWs, destroying something important to the other side... that's once done it's done, and nothing will un-do it. So the losing side retreats and regroups for the next battle in the war. Who says this one battle constitutes the entire "war"?

Without the base cap, the game is basically down to mindless shooting which some may find more fun but I don't. Although, I do hope new play modes will be implemented in the near future. Variety is good.

One more thing, from your assorted posts is that it seems like the your other argument is that because you've played with teams that suck, the Devs should change the game (remove base capture) so that it's harder to lose with a sucky team. I think the better solution is that those people learn how the game works, not have the game changed to suit a team-wide Leroy Jenkins method of mech combat.

[Dark Severance]

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

captures some strategic point and the war is over...

It isn't the war that it is over, it is the mission, skirmish or sortie that is over. The war still rages on and on. It gets captured back, more reinforcements come in, etc. The problem is you are thinking that is the end of the battle and it isn't, it is just the end of that sortie. If the war was over with... then you'd launch, win and it would be game over. That would just be plain silly. You can start with the classic like Gray Death Legion where it started with 1 man started winning a war and taking back a planet, one skirmish at a time.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

An objective in war does mean you have to capture some point, or you have to hold some place.

That is one objective but that is by far not the only objective and isn't the way to winning wars. A perfect example of this is Battletech: Storms of Fate by Loren L. Coleman, Victor attacked a strategic planet, the goal wasn't to hold the planet at all. It was to bog down the forces and make it look like they were taking. This was a diversion which pulled forces from other areas, letting the main force bpyass Skye Province and the Terran Corridor so they could hit Tikonov and be within striking distance of New Avalon. There are quite a few examples where fast raids, people plundering even mech factories for parts so that they'll have to send defenses from another planet letting other forces shift around. There is a larger war than one planet, one base and one objective.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

in both cases its a blood bath

This is Battletech, there is no bloodbath. Everyone has a nice ejection system and usually lives to survive and fight another day. We aren't using infantry and tanks in our engagements which means casualties are limited.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

and in any case this doesnt end with "hey we captured your flag/base now give up"

So historically... when the enemy force has taken your base, which has all your weapons and ammo (so you can't rearm). They also have your food and water (which means you are stuck on limited rations). They also have all your repair personal, support personal, any other military information you left on your computers and in your base. Oh and they have all your people at gun point! ... where exactly does the enemy decide, "We don't care about any of that just shoot them all?".

The point of a base capture and the reason it takes time, isn't so much you are just camping there. Behind the scenes, you are technically looting their wares, taking all their weapons, ammo, poisoning their food, destroying their water and communications. The capture time is just telling you, you've accomplished those goals now make a break for it. Since obviously the other team can't make it back in time to stop the capture, that means they'll get away. In Forest Colony you are distrupting or stopping the HPG Generator, meaning that the planet now loses communication with the outside world. Or if you could be a major statelite relay, meaning they are now blind and letting you land the main attack force.

Your 2 Lances are and should rarely be thought of as the main attack force. The Mechwarriors that everyone is portraying are all the unsung heroes and soldiers who have to be decoys, do the real grunt work so that when the main battle happens with the actual people (hence why you can't use canon names) it can happen.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Well the fact that I am not playin with any friends together (that means mostly solo) means I have to group up with ppl I dont even know.

I have friends and play with them. However anyone who knows me also knows that I spend the majority of the time doing PUGs. And I do just fine the majority of the time.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

That results in the problem that people dont do whatever you tell them.

That is your biggest problem right there. Don't tell people what to do. Although the game is about team work, when you solo, you have to take it a whole different angle. You have to think that no one will back you up, no one is going to cover your back. Now that you have that settled... you can focus on what you can do. You can focus on covering someone else's back, supporting them or putting you into a position to take advantage that no one is working together. For example if you see all 5 mechs going into the cave and 2 are going to the valley, then you should be going to the valley. If you see 7 mechs going into the cave, then you definitely should not follow them and will unfortuantely have to solo. In most cases you can slow or prevent a cap long enough for the 7 to either cap or come save you, whichever fate tends to roll your way.

There really is a trick and tact to playing solo, but working in a team environment. I spent weeks in Beta playing with non speaking English players. We actually did pretty good without ever talking. Warfare and tactics are pretty straight forward, there isn't a lot of need for communication.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Sooo my dear friend there is the question what are ya gonna do against people that join a game together and have voice chat and can coordinate and you just have a bunch of nobrainers that run with wiring weapons and scraming "WAAAAAAGH!!!!!"

I do what I always do. I do my role as a Mechwarrior, play to the best of my ability. You know despite all these "OMG Organized Groups are rolling me", my win/loss ration stays pretty much the same and evens out in the long run. Don't try to take over. Don't try to tell people what to do, that isn't team work. Just know what you can do, do it to the best of your ability and know how you can support other people. I realize they may not support you, but it doesn't take a genius to follow someone and shoot at the targets they shoot thereby maximizing your firepower and making a bit harder to be picked off.

[Dark Severance]

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Tells me the someone who just talks about TT and then cant bring up anything solid. do you even know how much stirr it would bring up when an enemy union dropship tries to land on a planet?

Actually it doesn't bring up that much stir if they came in via pirate point. You do realize that most planets don't even have satelites or advanced sensors in Battletech. Most of the tech was destroyed, hence why they are known as Lostech. It wasn't until the Clans started coming back and the discovery of the memory core did some tech knowledge start to come back. Most planets utilized the sensors from Jumpships and Dropships but those can't cover whole planet. Most

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

(on many occasions in BT universe there have been merc units garrisoned with just 1 lance and some platoon of foot soldiers.

You do realize that any planet that has only 1 Lance as a Garrison isn't a military objective at all (that is why they only have a 1 Lance). They aren't a strategic location, they don't hold military value and the 1 lance garrison is usually a Lance of 2nd line mechs that are 3025 tech.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

"hey cool we take this place now and then they give up and we win the war".... that is the only thing a mo ron would say

We aren't saying that at all. You are the one that keeps saying that. We are trying to explain what a military objective is and what the time translates into. You aren't just popping in and then saying "We have you base, we win". If you think that, then you lack imagination.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

were talking here about a full scale war scenario.

No we aren't. We aren't the full scale wars, we are only the skirmishes. A full scale war involves multiple dropships and Regiments and Battlations, not a couple Lances. A skirmish or a raid, even guerilla warefare utilizes 1-2 Lances.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

we win the war

There is no war. No one is at war currently. There is no war to win. There will be no war until the Clans invade and then it will be war mostly with them. This is not war, these are skirmishes and raids. 1 Battle does not equal the war. If 1 battle equaled the war, then once you win, you've already won the game so uninstall it now.

[MagicHamsta]

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

There are tons of reasons I can count that my point is actually valid. For example if we're goin by fluff in the BT universe, you can't just go to some planet atack them and then say to the enemy " Hey we capped your base! you lost!"

Yes, we can.
Me just pretend that the base capture actually be us destroying some critical infrastructure of the enemy.
Mayhaps uploading a virus to bork their system.
Once the timer goes to 0, it means we broke it.

So no amount of enemy fire would magically bring it back.
('-')

[Jason McComrade]

@Dark Severance;
I have readed all your responses, but I am afraid that I wont quote all you have written because its a real long text written there. So I will stipulate my answers.

well for the beginning. The first thing is you have written a response to 4 things you have quoted from a whole text so the meaning of the whole text got lost. And that text was about real life and not BT universe or any kind of game. In real life those things and warfare are different my dear friend it might sound unlogical to you but people tend to fight in situations where you think they actually should give up because it is the only logical solution and I have seen that alot. You cannot expect from everyone to surrender if you capture their base or whatever they have protected. They will surely strike back, or in worse case scenario they will suicide atack you until youre decimated or them... in either case it is REAL bloodbath. So there is no ejecting system that jumps you out of some bean can and then some civilised ppl take hostage of you. And by the way, in most cases Mechwarriors who eject their mechs dont find another mech to fight anymore, they end in slums or solaris. Or the other option is that they join a merc unit wich is willing to "lend" him a mech to fight with. Either case youre really doomed, seldomly u got lucky.

1) You said when someone has taken your base and ect.; if someone is able to capture your base it doesnt automatically mean that they poison your food, water and resources and that you loose all your weapons and other stuff. You still have your weapons in your hand and the fight is actually going on.. so while the fight goes on and some smarty captured the base (wich means he actually tokk over the base temporarily because in any minute there might come some other units to take it back) does it really mean the end of the fight for you? or would you kill your opponent and then turn back to kill that sneaky bas tard? so that means when a fighting is ongoing the base capture means actually nothing because there are people who can or might take it back. Calling the fight over is either real life or gamewise not realistic because as long as someone is there to fight the fight is long not over (I dont mind if you want to surrender, some people dont have that ideology)

2) You said you play with your friends and with PUGs and you didnt have any problem; well in this case I am happy for you but sadly that does not count on my case I am pretty disturbed by this fact that people like mindless zombies are gettin steamrolled everytime. I want to have fun with this game as you do and calling a solution for this is some right I guess..

3)About not telling people what to do; well actually I sticked to the thing you replied to me... that means I helped people as good as I can, I even have run into enemy base to just mark targets in order to die and what so ever... but it didnt changed the fact and the result. So after a while I came to the conclusion when you tell to the people to "stick together" or "please concentrate fire" or "I have marked targets someone send LRM over roger" they should at least listen or whatever. But mostly people are ignorant so in this case that makes you the lone wolf then, and then this makes the teamplay terminology obsolete. if I win 3 out of 10 games and loose 7 that really dont make me happy, because some incompetent people just dont understand the sentence "I need help at base please support" and I am takin my time to write all these sentences to the cost of gettin bashed by enemy fire. Helping people is fine, lookin for opportunities is ok but if it doesnt give you the fight then ppl should consider the fact that some other people dont have the intelligence to think and act to the matter. So I rather would enjoy a deathmatch in this case coz no one would play up the smart one on me and I can concentrate on killin the enemy on my front. Because whatever I do, I am a single person, a single mech and my abilities are limited, Im not top notch mechwarrior to take out everyone.

well thats said...thank you by reading all comments and posting your opinion

[Crazy Eight]

I Disagree. While I am not good at base cap It is a good Balancing technique. Base cap (or base destruction in chromehounds) Is a system where a team must play to Offence AND Defense. forcing player to think as opposed to run and gun everywhere. Its a nice change of pace from the typical shooters that are all about getting kills.

[Dark Severance]

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

You cannot expect from everyone to surrender if you capture their base or whatever they have protected.

Again you fail to see the full scopre of everything. You didn't surrender and they didn't capture your base. They accomplished an objection and then left the premises. It is called a raid. You attack, while the forces are fighting you go and cap the base. This timer and base cap represents whatever you want...

since you seem to lack imagination. You can borrow mine a bit. You uploaded a virus to the HPG Generator or Satelite Array, thereby blinding them to incoming dropships or unable to communicate for support. You just stole valuable troop information on enemy movements. They don't even have to be successful things. You found out that the "secret Star League tech" you were looking for wasn't there.

Now when the timer hits zero, even though the battle ends. You've accomplished your goals and like raid, head back to your transports, vanish or run away to regroup (hence battle ends). Since obviously you weren't able to stop their base cap, that means you wouldn't be able to catch up to them as they leave.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

They will surely strike back

They do. It is called you Launch in another match. Congratulations you've just struck back.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

And by the way, in most cases Mechwarriors who eject their mechs dont find another mech to fight anymore, they end in slums or solaris. Or the other option is that they join a merc unit wich is willing to "lend" him a mech to fight with. Either case youre really doomed, seldomly u got lucky.

They are called the dispossesed. Those are what happens to Lone Wolf players. Most MechWarriors belong to a House Unit or Merc Unit, they don't actually own their mech. They are assigned a mech and that is what they pilot.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

I even have run into enemy base to just mark targets in order to die

That is poor tactics. To just run into a base to mark a target doesn't do you or your team any good at all. A recon or scout, doesn't mean they just run straight into the enmey to mark a target and die. Most recon and scouting can be done at a distance of 400-600 meters just fine to mark targets and usually out of sight.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

"I need help at base please support"

This is something that called Battlefield Awareness. Most players will never gain this. There are quite a few matches that I've been in and yelled at because I didn't stop someone from capping a base or I didn't help them. In most situations when someone asks for help, they don't realize that most people are already engaged in battles. In my situation I am too far away to do anything, I'm not a Light mech pilot so I can't stop a base cap unless I'm near it. I don't usually move far from base until I know where the enemy has committed their forces though. In other cases I can't turn my back and go help because that leaves my back exposed to the enemy and I would die myself. Working as a team doesn't simply mean "I need help at C4". Information like "Heavily damged Atlas C4" or "LRM Cats D8" ends up being more useful.

[Jason McComrade]

Dark Severance, on 30 October 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Again you fail to see the full scopre of everything. You didn't surrender and they didn't capture your base. They accomplished an objection and then left the premises. It is called a raid. You attack, while the forces are fighting you go and cap the base. This timer and base cap represents whatever you want...

since you seem to lack imagination. You can borrow mine a bit. You uploaded a virus to the HPG Generator or Satelite Array, thereby blinding them to incoming dropships or unable to communicate for support. You just stole valuable troop information on enemy movements. They don't even have to be successful things. You found out that the "secret Star League tech" you were looking for wasn't there.

Now when the timer hits zero, even though the battle ends. You've accomplished your goals and like raid, head back to your transports, vanish or run away to regroup (hence battle ends). Since obviously you weren't able to stop their base cap, that means you wouldn't be able to catch up to them as they leave.

1st) It is obvious that you are struck in your own mentality and dont see that those things like "I hit now I run" doesnt work in real life situations at all.. if youre engagin a backline target wich is actually a total dangerous task in itself you just cant say "cool I hit the comm now run!!" its not that easy dude. And if you can manage this in real life in front of my eyes I will buy or do whatever you want! for that Im bettin my own skin!...

2nd; I see youre quite skilled to just pick that sentence you can bash on and leave the rest of the sentence alone so that the lone sentence looses its whole meaning... good job but Im not falling for that.. if youre gonna argue then argue to the whole sentence dont pick some short lines.

3rd) to the part in wich you mention that this genious of a guy is raidin some base and installin some virus into the HPG ( look I'm usin your imagination) then in this case this ***** of a Mechpilot HAS to climb down its mech and then run to terminal and then do the job you mentioned... while this happens the mech on pause mode is totally open to any kind of atack and by all good will you cant hope and think that the mechpilot will be able to jump back into the mech I presume? well that is the second thing I really wanna see!! that man has to be protected from all good ghosts,gods and ect. that he doesnt receive any kinda damage from all that blast and laser and bla bla.... so my dear friend your imagination is nice and funny but it lacks in most cases the reality behind it and by respect all BT novels do have at least a bit of reality in themselves...long story short, if enemy mech enters our base to cap it it should shut down the while it is doin, coz the pilot is elswhere doin other important things

Dark Severance, on 30 October 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

They do. It is called you Launch in another match. Congratulations you've just struck back.

that was a lame answer, the match is not over as long as someone lives... and striking back is something else... if you cant understand this simple terminology then it is a waste of time to argue with you.

Dark Severance, on 30 October 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

They are called the dispossesed. Those are what happens to Lone Wolf players. Most MechWarriors belong to a House Unit or Merc Unit, they don't actually own their mech. They are assigned a mech and that is what they pilot.

Dont worry if you loose a Mech on the field as a house pilot or even worse as a mercenary then youre kicked out that place the second you put your feet on the door.(of course we presume that the mechwarrior survived the encounter, in most cases they actually dont do)

Dark Severance, on 30 October 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

That is poor tactics. To just run into a base to mark a target doesn't do you or your team any good at all. A recon or scout, doesn't mean they just run straight into the enmey to mark a target and die. Most recon and scouting can be done at a distance of 400-600 meters just fine to mark targets and usually out of sight.

Finally something we can agree on!!!! I realised that those people are not worth to risk my own skin in order to get them some clean targets, wich they dont bombard with LRM anyway and scatter their fire on others...

Dark Severance, on 30 October 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

This is something that called Battlefield Awareness. Most players will never gain this. There are quite a few matches that I've been in and yelled at because I didn't stop someone from capping a base or I didn't help them. In most situations when someone asks for help, they don't realize that most people are already engaged in battles. In my situation I am too far away to do anything, I'm not a Light mech pilot so I can't stop a base cap unless I'm near it. I don't usually move far from base until I know where the enemy has committed their forces though. In other cases I can't turn my back and go help because that leaves my back exposed to the enemy and I would die myself. Working as a team doesn't simply mean "I need help at C4". Information like "Heavily damged Atlas C4" or "LRM Cats D8" ends up being more useful.

So if I take this comment right then you stay actually close to base normally, but you concentrate your attention to the front and actually dont care what happens on your backyard right? Because you mentioned that youre actually in fight itself or youre too focused to bombard someone to the ground and you think you would open your back to some enemy if you turn to base... well ok.. then youre leavin the enemy to do their objective with full intention.Well I call that malice...and what if youre the only one around to help? who cares right? there's some enemy who wants to backstab you. Tellin to you LRM cats on d8 does not matter to me while the base is overrun or I am in urgent need of help. calling out for help is a normal thing to do.. it doesnt matter if the atlas or whatever is heavily damaged or not..

well whatever.... this argumentation will last forever because you will obviously not see what I am trying to tell to you and agreeing on my term is admitting defeat, so stay stubborn and vigilant!

[PinTBC]

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Im very interested in that BT story where just some merc units or house units runs in to some planet and captures some strategic point and the war is over... all those books I have readed never mentioned such thing... indulge me please... I would like to read that book wich you mentioned...

How about a real life example? In the Gulf war, the stealth bombers didn't have to kill everyone on the ground. They went in and destroyed specific radar sites. Had the Iraqis managed to stop them, then the next phase of the battle wouldn't have happened, because we would not have sent in F-15s against those active radar sites. The stealth bombers won that scenario.

In this scenario, the capture of the base could represent a ton of things. You could be cutting a main comm link, or power link, or destroying a headquarters building. Hell, you could be destroying a railcar with the commander's concubines in it. Each would take some time (the base capture time) and in each case, if you are successful, the other side loses. Sure the graphics are not in, but putting a timer on the capture actually makes it easier to balance rather than damaging some item on the ground.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

An objective in war does mean you have to capture some point, or you have to hold some place. This is a problem for both sides of those who's warring, coz those who'se defendin are mostly bunkered in and those who'se the aggressors have to fight their way trough... in both cases its a blood bath and in any case this doesnt end with "hey we captured your flag/base now give up" coz in many cases that ***** who tells that gets some bullet between the eyes as answer. The only case to make 1 side give up is to surround them and MAKE them surrender.. or else they have to die. And so said, in the history you can see many battles that people are fightin to teeth and nail and die instead of surrendering. And I can tell you that coz I am a war veteran dude I have seen that many times.

And you've never been told to take that hill? or take out that gun? You are looking at each battle we drop in as a total war scenario. They are not, they are pieces of a much larger fight. You win not necessarily by killing all your enemies (although that is an effective way), you win by controlling space and the fight.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Well the fact that I am not playin with any friends together (that means mostly solo) means I have to group up with ppl I dont even know. That results in the problem that people dont do whatever you tell them. So staying in the base and trying to defend it alone doesnt make actually any sense because mostly the counter party is comin at least with 2 mechs... (in rare occasions 1 mech) so there is actually no place to "think" and "work as a team" coz alltough youre "thinking" and telling the people that theyre gonna base rush so at least that there should be 2 mechs that defends theyre laughing their *** off and mostly there are even morons that tell you "you cant order us around this is a game relax" ok it might be a game Im quite aware of it but I would like to enjoy it instead of getting frustrated. Sooo my dear friend there is the question what are ya gonna do against people that join a game together and have voice chat and can coordinate and you just have a bunch of nobrainers that run with wiring weapons and scraming "WAAAAAAGH!!!!!"

Cool. My son and I were playing Jenners tonight in PUGs and decided to fast base capture, because the groups we were in were getting smoked. We had very good luck doing so and managed to pull out a couple wins in three matches, so fast captures can be very effective ways for PUGs to deal with Premades.

[Hades Trooper]

sounds like an atlas pilot who crying, drop some of your weapons loadout and move a bit faster and base capture won't worry you.

plus without it, it becomes a game of camp warrior.

yes base can be recpatured, thats what the next game can be in your eyes and this isn't canon, so bad luck so sad, who cares. try to make a system everyone can use and no one will use it.

[Jason McComrade]

PinTBC, on 30 October 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

How about a real life example? In the Gulf war, the stealth bombers didn't have to kill everyone on the ground. They went in and destroyed specific radar sites. Had the Iraqis managed to stop them, then the next phase of the battle wouldn't have happened, because we would not have sent in F-15s against those active radar sites. The stealth bombers won that scenario.

In this scenario, the capture of the base could represent a ton of things. You could be cutting a main comm link, or power link, or destroying a headquarters building. Hell, you could be destroying a railcar with the commander's concubines in it. Each would take some time (the base capture time) and in each case, if you are successful, the other side loses. Sure the graphics are not in, but putting a timer on the capture actually makes it easier to balance rather than damaging some item on the ground.

I agree to you that sending "stealth bombers" and destroying the radar station is an objective. That is right, but as you said those "stealth bombers" made a fast run-in hit and move out job and didnt even stayed at the location to see the end. Mechs however are ground bound units, they arent as flexible as a jetfighter and their speed doesnt match any fighter either. In this case hittin some backline base and gettin out unharmed is actually not the same thing and that is what I am trying to explain. Yes they might have destroyed the HPG or the generator or whatever and accomplished "their" objective but they "still" are in the backlines and that means they have 2 choices of action either they have free way to run out or they have to fight their way out in order to survive... and this is actually what I am trying to explain.

The game can be won if the base is captured but it doesnt necessarily need to end, there are still troops on the field and they might block your way or even trap you and kill you.. So my suggestion was to either remove the base capture OR to make the base capture as an "objective" where the party wich takes over the base wins the game but the fight does not end until the winner has retreated to some "extraction point" in this case it still makes sense and is more realistic, because if you do your objective then the fight is actually not over, you have to evacuate the field too, what I dont understand is why people cant understand this simple logic.

I am saying it again, base capture can make the capturer win the game but those guys also need to extract from the field, so there should be some extraction point after the battle that people has to retreat and the game can end. This way those who are actually in the middle of the fight dont get frustrated because of some fast base cappers rushed in and the game ended halfway.

PinTBC, on 30 October 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

And you've never been told to take that hill? or take out that gun? You are looking at each battle we drop in as a total war scenario. They are not, they are pieces of a much larger fight. You win not necessarily by killing all your enemies (although that is an effective way), you win by controlling space and the fight.

Yes I have been many times told to do the most ridiculous things, and I understand the importance of holding the space too, sometimes having a larger area of action means more than having the base or defensible position. But in every case, if I have to take the hill, than that meant that there are some people who were defending it, or it would be a point that would be atacked as soon it was occupied. I know the difference between the fight and the war. But a fight is allways have to be fought and the enemy is relentless until you give up or youre dead. Either way you need to stay in motion or your grounded.

PinTBC, on 30 October 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Cool. My son and I were playing Jenners tonight in PUGs and decided to fast base capture, because the groups we were in were getting smoked. We had very good luck doing so and managed to pull out a couple wins in three matches, so fast captures can be very effective ways for PUGs to deal with Premades.

I am happy that you and your son managed to "win" a game against "pre organised teams". It is sometimes frustrating that PUG's got steamrolled from organised teams. but the terminology "premade" doesnt match to this, because teaming up is something that is normal, but premade is that 2 parties are agreeing to "abuse" a glitch in the game. That means 1 side looses to the other with intent, so that the other can farm, "fame" "honor" "money" or ect.

[Jason McComrade]

Hades Trooper, on 30 October 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

sounds like an atlas pilot who crying, drop some of your weapons loadout and move a bit faster and base capture won't worry you.

plus without it, it becomes a game of camp warrior.

yes base can be recpatured, thats what the next game can be in your eyes and this isn't canon, so bad luck so sad, who cares. try to make a system everyone can use and no one will use it.

No my friend I dont like Atlas and I dont like to see so many Atlas on the field too, coz Atlas is rare tech in BT universe and actually shouldnt be used by everyone in the field. Mostly such mechs like Atlas are given to batallion or regiment commanders or high ranked officers in order to overwatch the field more easily and use the advanced comm tech that this mech has. I mostly play with my medium mech but sometimes I choose heavy mechs too, in rare occasions assault. But that is still the same, disengaging from a fight and running back into your base is not that easy coz the enemy sits on your back and bashes your rear armor.

[Dark Severance]

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

And if you can manage this in real life in front of my eyes I will buy or do whatever you want!

Um... hate to tell you this but I was in the military and yes we have done this. The things you are talking about, feelings, hard to do, revenge... those are emotions that aren't on a battlefield. Those are gamer emotions, not a military emotion. There is a bigger picture you have to think about as a soldier. We take military objectives, hit and run, behind enemy lines all the time and through-out history.

I'll be the first to say this though. This is a GAME! It is not real life. You are over thinking things way too much. At this point I have to ask, how old are you? You are either not an English speaking player, which is fine or you are very young judging by your posts.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

if youre gonna argue then argue to the whole sentence dont pick some short lines.

It is called snipping a post, so the whole page isn't nothing but quotes. It is how you have discussions on the internet without filling a page with nothing but quote boxes also known and seen as -snip-. The message quote is only used as a place of reference to the original post.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

a Mechpilot HAS to climb down its mech and then run to terminal and then do the job you mentioned...

Have you played a MechWarrior game ever? Time when you take an objective has always been represented by standing in a location for a certain amount of time. Although vs the AI the time goes faster. Not all missions were "destroy everyone". That is why you don't just take base when you walk in, it takes time to simulate that. There is no get out, there are no infantry, it is a game. It isn't reality. It is a simulation. That is why when there are more mechs, it goes faster.

Not all viruses require you to actually touch a computer to be installed. It can be something as simple as being withing X Distance to broadcast a signal. It can also be as simple as ripping out a conduit. All technology is Lostech, they don't have replacement parts just sitting in around, so any damage means it is out of commission for quite awhile.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

respect all BT novels do have at least a bit of reality in themselves...

Actually Battletech addresses this. This is a quote from the Battletech Sourcebooks.

Fiction vs Rules
It is important to note that fiction, though essential in making the game universe come alive, should never be constructed as rules. While BattleTech fiction usually attempts to adhere to the aesthetics established by the rules, authors often use creative license to accomplish the needs of a given story.

Again this is a game, a simulation. It isn't going to suddenly switch from a Mech Simulation to a First Person Shooter, while you go take over a base and subdue everyone. Or let you get out and kill everyone. This is not MECH ASSAULT. Go play Mech Assault on the XBox and Mech Assault 2, those appear to be the games you are looking for.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

the match is not over as long as someone lives...

So I guess you should also argue that they remove the 15 minute timer because it is obvious that the isn't realistic either. I mean no military mission has ever had X amount of time to finish a mission and if they didn't had to evacuate because time ran out. Oh wait, they have. So that Atlas pilot in the valley 1500 meters away from base when the base cap was complete... yeah they aren't going to catch the other Atlas pilots (at the slowest) or Hunchbacks already at the base. They sure aren't going to catch anything while the enemy moves in the opposite direction. If you think they will keep following them, instead of going back to their base to find out what was destroyed, captured, taken, etc then I am really glad you aren't in the military.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

(of course we presume that the mechwarrior survived the encounter, in most cases they actually dont do)

They don't survive the battle? Are you serious! Now I know you are trolling. Battlemechs are actually complicated to pilot. They go to school or learn from a merc unit. You can't just replace bodies like you do mechs, they would of ran out of pilots ages ago. That is why there are so many dispossessed. Of course they actually survive. Unlike you, who seems to think Battletech is about killing people, it is about Mechs and Resources plain and simple. A person's life is worthless, there is no point taking time to hunt someone down to kill them (unless they are a royal) once you have the mechs or resources.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

So if I take this comment right then you stay actually close to base normally, but you concentrate your attention to the front and actually dont care what happens on your backyard right?

Close is a relative term that is subjective to the BattleMech you are piloting. As an Atlas I am within 1200-1500 meters to the base at the beginning. I haven't overcommitted because I don't know where the enemy is. I know that if I see the basde capture alarm, at that distance, I can still make it back to base in time. I try to make sure my angle of return is from a place where I can see the base to maximize my response time. As a Hunchback or Catapult, I can be a bit further away.

Once you start seeing combat, I am able to engage at long range. While keeping track of where the enemy is and what their team consists of. That lets me figure out the best way to respond and where I can apply my skills to backup other team mates. If the majority of the enemy is in the valley or defending, then I can move up further.

There is what is known as the point of no return. In military fashion that means after you move past a certain point, you are too far into the theatre of war to be able to return back. At that point you are on your own because of the inability to respond as well as the distance being further from anyone else to be able to respond too.

Jason McComrade, on 30 October 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Because you mentioned that youre actually in fight itself or youre too focused to bombard someone to the ground and you think you would open your back to some enemy if you turn to base... well ok.. then youre leavin the enemy to do their objective with full intention. Well I call that malice...and what if youre the only one around to help? who cares right? there's some enemy who wants to backstab you.

So you are saying, that I'm piloting an Atlas, fighting against a Hunchback. You call for help, that I should immediately turn around and head back to base. Despite the fact that I'm 2000 meters away from base, I will not get to base before the timer gets to 0. Despite the fact that I'm witin 200 meters of a Hunchback fighting him currently. I should immediately turn around and head back to base.

How exactly am I going to make it there while a Hunchback Alpha's my back 3 times to destroy my mech? How exactly am I helping now?

In that situation you hope someone isn't engaged in combat. That there are lights or mediums who can respond, while focusing on trying to disengage from the enemy. But I guarauntee that a Hunchback isn't going to just turn around to find another target, when an Atlas turns around and goes the other way.

[RedHairDave]

Frosted, on 30 October 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

They shouldn't removed it before adding pure team death match

pure death match, by that you mean 8 altas's with smallest engine possible, most fire power possible, tucked into a corner with only one entrance, waiting in a semicircle for the enemy to wonder into the trap. ya, that sounds fun.

no base, no tactical play, just stupidity.