593 replies to this topic

[Dagar]

@wwiiogre
I wouldn't go as far, as to call MW4 a fps. However, the time you need to repair your mech in this game (only played mercs) is... funny. On the battlefield it takes seconds, in base two weeks (in-game time).

Back to the topic. I'm all against reloading mechs on the battlefield. Beam weapons have to deal with heat, so you should deal with conserving ammo. Situation in Rejarial's example (BTW, I was quite impressed by the story you wrote, considering, that you could just as well leave only last two sentences ) could be solved, if there was some possibility for the scout leave the battlefield (evac point).

[Kudzu]

Make your shots count and ammo should never be a concern. If you feel your ride doesn't carry enough then go into the mechlab and make some tradeoffs to carry more. (Upgrading to double heat sinks then removing some of the now extra ones will be a popular choice I'd imagine, especially on the Catapult and Hunchback). Problem solved.

[wwiiogre]

I feel that the people having problems with the concept of ammo runs out are used to fps games. This is a team game, not single player, no respawns except in drop ship mode and you don't respawn but drop in a different mech. Since it is not a single player game you in your mech are not responsible for killing every mech. In fact if you kill a single mech you will have done your job, if you kill two mechs then you have done more than expected. Looke at how many shots you get per ton of ammo and how much damage that really does. Then you will see in general your mech should have enough ammo to kill two mechs of your own size or even a size above. If you have 11 teammates that means you should have enough ammo between all twelve mechs to kill a minimum of 24 mechs of any size. Why do you need to reload during a game? Unless you are praying and spraying from extreme ranges this should not be a problem in most games.

Now take the standard of focused fire from several mechs concentrated on a single mech and that mech dies even faster than it would take to kill it with a single mech. This means every mech firing at it used less ammo, meaning you have more to kill other mechs. Wash/Rinse/Repeat.

In games recently playing lance vs. lance using ammo dependent mechs. I have never run out of ammo for a single weapon. Havn't even come close using tro 3025 mechs in MW4. First I don't waste shots, second I concentrate fire on an enemy mech with the rest of my teammates usually resulting in that mech being destroyed with fewer shots from me. Or I get killed so fast by the enemy because they concentrated fire on me.

Now in a Raven I ran out of narc pods but that is cause I successfully used every one of them during a battle and it made a difference. Even narc'ing the backside of an enemy atlas twice. Not for the feint of heart let me tell you. And yes I died spectacularly when they cored me eventually getting tired of me narcing them. But not until after I had done my job by finding the enemy, leading my lance to them, then narcing the enemy so our lrm boats could shoot them. Then waiting until the enemy lance was engaged then sneaking in and getting back shots. Of course once you shoot an assault mech they notice you and usually that is the end for a Raven.

but it was a lot of fun. I didn't need reloads, couldn't get repaired. Game took about 10 minutes, moving around finding the enemy. Picking a good approach. Narcing them then dancing. Lots of fun.

thanks Gray Death Legion for the above encounter. Wish I could be that effective every time I play.

Chris

[Ravn]

I am with ya wwiiogre/chris. Waste not, want not. Are you sure you are not a Snow Raven?

[wwiiogre]

Not a black bird living in the snow just a man in a kilt listening to the pipes

chris

[Steel Talon]

Main metagame gamemode wont be a 15 min deathmatch, but some kind of base conquest with "respawn" via drops & that takes longer time (up to 30min or more)
some sort of resupply should be avaible for ppl that manage to survieve longer

[Rejarial Galatan]

wwiiogre.... your a [REDACTED]. pure and simple. They are trying their best to take TABLE TOP rules and apply them to a FASTER system of online play. While I am ALL for canon, I am NOT however for lagging a game down in the game in the name of canon. What I believe would happen is the same with interplanetary transit, a thing called time compression or speeding it up for the sake of keeping the game flowing. again your a [REDACTED] if you think theyd keep it that bloody slow. If you wanna not repair your mech, ill hunt you down and smash you under the foot of my assault mech while you watch your armor fly away.

Edited by Helmer, 28 April 2012 - 06:08 PM.
Edited for content. Please check your Personal Messages Rejarial Galatan.

[Insidious Johnson]

I require proof of Twitdom. I merely see two people who see things differently... and one of them is spewing ad hominums for an opening premise which lead directly to a non sequitur. Informal logical fallacies, -200. Insta argument fail.

Edited by Insidious Johnson, 28 April 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Mrs Brisby]

if your out or ammo your out either use it in moderation or drop some armor so that you can have some extra ammo.

or just use lazers and be done with it.

[wwiiogre]

That has been pointed out repeatedly, as has how tabletop would transfer to simulation and the difference between simulation and arcade fps where's my powerup armor and ammo boxes. But alas, all effort at explanation using rules, logic, quotes from the Dev's at PGI have failed. Have a good one Rajerial. I believe the game you are looking for is called Mech Assault, not mech warrior. I may be wrong tho. My opinions are my own and are solely based on my own warped sense of grim humor and pessimism. You can have your own. I just merely keep responding to players that may not be familiar with the game battletech or the roleplaying pnp game mechwarrior or any of the rules or decades worth of literature, fiction or otherwise.

I want ammo reloads in the field, I would love nothing more than to catch ill disciplined trigger happy munchkins running their ammo depleted mechs back for a reload and catch them in a pile of high explosives just so I can make those explosives detonate and shred their mech. Time compression comes between missions. Fight for 15-20 minutes kill a couple of mechs, get your hard earned xp and cbills, go to mech lab, fix your mech, tweak the loadout, drop back in a mission and five minutes later you are 60 light years away with a brand new mech, all repaired and ready to go. That is called believable time compression. Where as I run 200 meters north and run over a glowing magic box and all my repairs are fixed and my ammo is loaded is unbeilievable time compression especially when people are still shooting or you are in line of sight of the enemy.

But once again that is merely my impression.

Chris

[Rejarial Galatan]

look ogre, you seemingly do not see the validity in my points and want nothing more than to chide me and be snide. so, i wash my hands of you. i WILL haul your mechs remains onto my drop ship as a trophy, make no doubt of that.

[wwiiogre]

I am not chiding you or being snide. Please do not put any emotion into what I write. If I wanted to be insulting I would not try to hide it. I have said repeatedly that this is my opinion and your opinion has just as much weight as mine. Since they are both merely opinions and only PGI will decide what they will do. When I give my opinion I try to give the background and reasons of why I give them. Usually when you discuss or debate an issue, the person that can give more supporting information usually is viewed by a neutral as having more validity. Which in the end doesn't mean anything.

I agree to disagree with you Rajerial. But I have no bad feelings towards you and have never meant to intentionally or unintentionally insult or deride your opinion or you. So relax, this is a discussion board and we are discussing opinions nothing more.

Chris

[Cifu]

Hawks, on 28 April 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

Bear in mind that '20 shots' in the TT game equates to something like 3.5 minutes of continuous firing.

I do, but note the difference about "i can fire unlimited times", and "i can fire 20 times"...

And do not forget my error on the calculation -> the Mech's have 10 heat sink in the beginnig. So in a medium mech (where a PPC or AC/10 become the solely main gun), you need only 2-3 heat sink (and not 7) to keep the heat level under control...

Mrs Brisby, on 28 April 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

if your out or ammo your out either use it in moderation or drop some armor so that you can have some extra ammo.

or just use lazers and be done with it.

You got the point. If the Piranha guys don't consider the ammunition problem, then i bet the energy weapons become the popular choice.

[Ground Pounder]

As has been said many times, when you choose an ammo based weapon, you choose the risks and the rewards for said weapon. If you run out of rounds and there isn't a friendly MFB near by, then I hope you have a backup energy weapon loaded out somewhere. Good luck.

[Oswin Aurelius]

(45 likes on my post on page 1 now, way to go, guys XD)

[Ravn]

Rejarial Galatan, on 28 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

look ogre, you seemingly do not see the validity in my points and want nothing more than to chide me and be snide. so, i wash my hands of you. i WILL haul your mechs remains onto my drop ship as a trophy, make no doubt of that.

How will you have time to do this and reload?

Edit: Trollolol

Edited by Ravn, 29 April 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[Skullrider]

Ok, From my experience in mw4 and IS/Wars fights. This is ultimately down to the training of the pilot in question and his lance leader.

Basic Battlemech teamwork theory taught me that lance leader = God unless a CCO is on the field. When engaging an enemy lance or series of targets it is down to the lance leader to:

A) Know what weapons each of his team has. (he in my opinion should have been the one to chose them depending on the engagement, ie long range weapons, Mid range or Brawlers)

Decide on what weapons to use for the specific situation.

C) Ensure Weapons Dicipline so that he knows how much ammunition each of his pilots has left. Including between engagement "Ammo Check" orders.

if someone runs out of ammunition during a medium length battle then it is either down to the lance leader being over lenient with weapons dicipline or the pilot being a ****** shot.

Weapons Dicipline is essential. If you run out, you should stay out of ammunition as retreating to an MFB or ammo dump Puts the rest of the lance, Company and the operation at risk.

So my suggestion is, Lance leaders, train your men. Train yourself to know what weapons to use and when.

[Ghosth]

I actually reloaded MW4 Vengance and Mercanarys so I could get a better idea of exactly what is involved.

I quickly found out that AC tended to be ammo hawgs, and not to mount it unless I could add an extra ton or 2 of ammo.

It really isn't that hard most times to add an extra click of ammo to make sure you don't run out.

Your choice when you pick that weapon, knowing it needs an extra ton for ammo that could go for heat sinks, or armor.

After a couple of days of playing I was amazed at how many of my mechs had 1/2 PPC's, SRM or Streaks for short range punch.

For med mechs its amazing how well a Clan Streak 4 with an extra ton of ammo can do when they are close.

Gauss Rifle I like, but hard to find clan variants in my M4 Merc game. Again, when your loading a weapon systems that weighs 13 tons, its really not hard to click 1 extra ton of ammo into it, ensuring you'll have enough.

If your burning though all your ammo you either need to A Plan better when building, B tighten up on trigger control.

[WarHammer LLTS]

[color="#000000"]I like the ideal of a mobile resupply station. On a quick skirmish they wouldn’t be feasible but in a longer engagement they would work out great. They could carry enough ammo for say 1 reload for each mech with the downfall being that it takes awhile to reload pending how much ammo needs to be replaced and they can be destroyed by anything that happens by. So if you want to keep them around someone going to have to take one for the team and pull guard duty to protect it from roaming scouts and strike lances.[/color]

[ovan20]

Ground Pounder, on 28 April 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

As has been said many times, when you choose an ammo based weapon, you choose the risks and the rewards for said weapon. If you run out of rounds and there isn't a friendly MFB near by, then I hope you have a backup energy weapon loaded out somewhere. Good luck.

Right, asking for reload for balistic weapons, it would be the same as asking for a laser that didnt increase the heat.

Every weapon will have some kind of flaw, and thats why you have to think a lot while you customise your mech, and thats is much of the fun factor of the game.