593 replies to this topic

[Vesper Darktide]

I'm sitting between the two top choices. The key factor in my view comes down to the specifics of balancing.

If the heat scale is aggressive enough to force serious allocation of heat sinks (enough to balance the energy weapon damage vs it's weight mainly) than I have no problem with ammo being strictly limited. If ammo consuming weapons do not offer some secondary advantage over simply being heat efficient when compared to equivalent energy weapons + their required heat sinks (specifically enough to render their heat build up trivial) then I think resupply is reasonable (under some of the destructible supply truck or field base + reloading time vulnerability suggestions mentioned earlier). On the other hand if the ammo consuming weapon has a significant perk when compared pound to pound to its energy counterpart to balance out the advantages of infinite shots then, again, I support strictly limiting ammo.

Keep in mind I consider any advantage the ammo weapon has to be a 'perk.' That includes aspects like smaller critical space required, increased range, increased fire power, increased rate of fire, and so on. In some variations of Mechwarrior that kind of balance has not always been present.

Another consideration is the raw stopping power of weapons in general. If it takes a lot of shots to kill another mech of equal or lesser size then the relative value of infinite ammo increases quickly. However if weapons are relatively powerful this effect is reduced. In other words, if it takes a disproportionate amount of damage to kill enemies, more ammo should be provided, if that is handled by including more rounds per ton or by providing limited resupply is up to the design goals.

I hope that made sense lol .

[ovan20]

Vesper Darktide, on 30 April 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I hope that made sense lol .

Yes it will depend on the statiscs of every weapon, but in most cases, balistic and missiles have greater rate of fire and greater range, and almost dont increase the heat, but they use a lot of space, making you have less armor, and can explode if take enough damage.

Lasers in the other hand, have greater damage and "infinite ammo", but increase the heat very fast, and if you dont deal with it, it can make your mech shut down to prevent a meltdown.

The sweet spot of ammo would be, you having ammo to take down 4 mechs, because in that way you are not defenseless, but you cant just go shooting as if you ammo was infinite, and since the matchs will be of more or less 20 minutes, i doubt you can run out of ammo.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Ravn, on 29 April 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

How will you have time to do this and reload?

Edit: Trollolol

I carry 0 ammunition. I am an energy weapons purist. Only time you will EVER see ammo on me is if I bring a gauss rifle for the moments when I wanna just punch a big hole in you.

[Kanatta Jing]

Well we're going to be doing 4 on 4, 8 on 8 and 12 on 12 matches. Realistically anyone one ammo pile will rarely be expended against more then 2 mechs.

This isn't a 1 PC verses 6 NPC's in linear row or a MW4 infinite respawn map.

But I think strategic ammo drops could be arranged. For those long haul campaigns.

You know, stop the mech, set it to kneel next to the reloader and sit there completely vulnerable next to a highly explosive object. Relaxing with a cool drink in your hand, maybe polish off your sandwich while you wait for the timer to finish.

Just hoping no enemy Commando hops out of nowhere ('cause they don't do that right?) and starts an ammo explosion that rips your mech to pieces with one shot of his Medium Las.

I kinda like the idea.

[ArcaneIce]

I think once youre out, youre out for good. I mean that's a part of the tradeoff you deal with versus using an energy weapon and the heat aspect that goes along with it. But that's just my opinion.

[Rejarial Galatan]

why assume its gonna be an even match numbers wise each fight? who says it wont be 2 on 7 or 1 on 3 or 2 on 5 or something similar?

and uh why should it be an if your out your out, when lore/canon says there is mfb's and the like to repair/rearm?

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 30 April 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[Orzorn]

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 April 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

and uh why should it be an if your out your out, when lore/canon says there is mfb's and the like to repair/rearm?

See, I personally hope that it might depend on the map/game type. I'd love to see more drawn out game types that including rearming stations and coolant trucks to make for some really awesome battles. Mechs are awesome, but battles only being whatever-you-brought-on-your-mech vs whatever-you-brought-on-your-mech seems like it might get a little stale, at least if that's all you ever do.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Orzorn, on 30 April 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

See, I personally hope that it might depend on the map/game type. I'd love to see more drawn out game types that including rearming stations and coolant trucks to make for some really awesome battles. Mechs are awesome, but battles only being whatever-you-brought-on-your-mech vs whatever-you-brought-on-your-mech seems like it might get a little stale, at least if that's all you ever do.

So far, what ive seen via vids havnt done anything less than impress me, I THINK PGI will make all our fights anything but stale XD and I like how you just listed a coolant truck XD

[Ravn]

ovan20, on 30 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

The sweet spot of ammo would be, you having ammo to take down 4 mechs, because in that way you are not defenseless, but you cant just go shooting as if you ammo was infinite, and since the matchs will be of more or less 20 minutes, i doubt you can run out of ammo.

Heck, if you take down 1 mech you have done your job. 2 mechs and you are supporting the lance. 3+ you are carrying your lance.

Edit: I'm speaking from a no respawn perspective. If there is respawn, that game mechanic is broken and you shouldn't be punished for kickin butt.

Edited by Ravn, 30 April 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

respawn is and ISNT broken imho. broken in that you can rejoin a fight basically back at full ammo <IF you had any to start> and full armor. IF however, you rejoin the fight at 50% everything, then not so broken.

[Ravn]

I didn't want to hijack this thread onto respawn. I was just stating where my argument was coming from. If you waste 4 mechs and they come back to the fight fully loaded, you should have the option of rearming. I prefer no respawn, no reload.

Edited by Ravn, 30 April 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Well, respawn, if worked like: you respawn at 100% across the board, then its a broken way to reload/repair which is on topic for the thread, so, partial hijacking for you. But, IMHO repair/reload SHOULD be a mechanic, use it if you want, but have it available ya know?

[Yeach]

ovan20, on 30 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

The sweet spot of ammo would be, you having ammo to take down 4 mechs, because in that way you are not defenseless, but you cant just go shooting as if you ammo was infinite, and since the matchs will be of more or less 20 minutes, i doubt you can run out of ammo.

I agree.
IMO A single mech with stock ammo (10 rds of AC20, 20 rds of AC10, 40 rounds of AC5) SHOULD have the ability to take out 3 to 6 average size pristine medium/heavy mechs (4 average) assuming average gunnery skills.

Recycle rate and damage were wacked in MW2 and MW3 that it often required you to load up more on ammunition that you should have while MW4 was the opposite due to the increase armor of the mechs which was compensated by the higher ammunition count. I liked MW4 the best in terms of ammunition count for AC weapons even though both recyle and armor was skewed (proportionally.

[Kraktzor]

GDL Irishwarrior, on 04 April 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

I believe that running out of ammo should definitely be a danger - as far as what comes after that, it all depends on whether the battlefield would reasonably HAVE mobile field bases - sometimes the answer would be yes, sometimes no; I think it would largely depend on the mission type. If MFBs are available, great - tell your lance, make a dash for the resupply, and hope you still have allies when you've reloaded. Otherwise, I guess you can always use your Catapult to try DFA-ing Atlases

I've done that in TT

doesn't always quite work as well as I'd hoped

[Ravn]

Kraktzor, on 30 April 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

I've done that in TT

doesn't always quite work as well as I'd hoped

That would have made much more sense on Apr 4th.

[990Dreams]

Re supply at a repair bay or an ammo dump. Or anything else

[rolling thunder]

Orzorn, on 30 April 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

See, I personally hope that it might depend on the map/game type. I'd love to see more drawn out game types that including rearming stations and coolant trucks to make for some really awesome battles. Mechs are awesome, but battles only being whatever-you-brought-on-your-mech vs whatever-you-brought-on-your-mech seems like it might get a little stale, at least if that's all you ever do.

Please don't bring Coolant trucks in to the equasion I can't remember them ever being used in any of the Novels. They would be useful in static defence.
My reason for saying yes to the ammo dumps is they would add a strategic element as dictated by the scenario. I think a coolant truck would end up being a sad target,more so than a convoy of J27s but a coolant truck would have less strategic value.

[Rajen]

Go with energy- based weaponry for longer missions where ammo salvage or re- supply is not feasible. Perhaps ammo- based weaponry for base defense or short, decisive battles...imho.

[MaddMaxx]

Rajen, on 01 May 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Go with energy- based weaponry for longer missions where ammo salvage or re- supply is not feasible. Perhaps ammo- based weaponry for base defense or short, decisive battles...imho.

But that is the thing right there. We should not know what the Mission length will be. Then Teams are forced to build Mechs capable under any environment or time constraint. The unknown adds immensely to the over-all FUN factor.

[Cobweb]

While the field base sounds cool, if you run out of ammo, you are SoL. Sorry.