593 replies to this topic

[neodym]

Oswin Aurelius, on 05 May 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

It's poll, actually. You swim in a pool. XD

the pool there was is gone,or em I trippin dawg this time?

[Sassori]

No, we don't need ammo stations. If we have ammo stations then the ballistic weapons become VASTLY superior to energy weapons. Where is the risk in taking an AC 20 or a Gauss Rifle if there's no ammo issues?

I can thumb the trigger and hold it down all day then go reload and be walking death with zero heat issues!

That's what infinite ammo does.

The reason you see energy weapons on a mech is so they /don't/ run out of ammo, but they have higher heat output. Lots of mechs have a Ballistic or Missile primary weapon system, but have medium lasers and a large laser for back up.

They're not designed to fire /everything/ at once or they'd quickly melt, they're designed to use the appropriate weapon for the appropriate situation.

All ammo supply dumps and infinite reloads does is dumb the game down and make the obvious weapon ballistic weapons. Two AC 20's, why not, don't have ammo issues and I'll kill everyone fast!

In MW3 I remember running into Dual U-AC/20 Timber Wolves/Mad Cats. In fact... it was those, shadow cats with a billion small lasers, and missile boats only...

Personally, I want to see more variation than that. Ammo has to matter, and it has to be limited, considering that missiles and AC's can put out twice the damage of a PPC.

[Alymbic]

I fully agree with Christopher. Ammo is just the price you pay. If you need extra ammo, strip out a few heatsinks and use that tonnage. Thats what I've always done and since MW3 I've always run with ballastics and missiles. Part of what makes the games so fun is when you run out of ammo. I've had heaps of fun games when I finally run out of bullets/missiles and I just run distraction for my teammates or some good old fashioned ramming/DOA

Morale of the story, please no ammo dumps. If you have to make a compromise, just add a few more shots per tonne. The main people who are going to be complaining in-game are those who dont think ahead or use a AC-20 like a leaky hosepipe.

[Cifu]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

No, we don't need ammo stations. If we have ammo stations then the ballistic weapons become VASTLY superior to energy weapons. Where is the risk in taking an AC 20 or a Gauss Rifle if there's no ammo issues?

I can thumb the trigger and hold it down all day then go reload and be walking death with zero heat issues!

That's what infinite ammo does.

Please note the same level of weapons in energy / ballistic weapons have balanced in tons/critical/range/heat before the ammunition issues. You say AC/20 i say 4x MLAS, you say Gauss Rifle, i say ER PPC, just watch the numbers in the TT. I believe the PG will do some kind of balance in this matter, the question is need to be some kind of resupply, or not.

I forgot to point out in my earlier post: the ammo issue can be control the LRM boating (mentioned as the Catapult). But can be overshadowed the ballistic weapons. But if the ammo resupply become an option, then the LRM boats are going to be camping the resupply stations, with it's long range weapons.

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

The reason you see energy weapons on a mech is so they /don't/ run out of ammo, but they have higher heat output. Lots of mechs have a Ballistic or Missile primary weapon system, but have medium lasers and a large laser for back up.

Again, pointed out earlier: the energy weapons with the original TT (and most MW) rules are simply make the ballistic weapons useless (Hunchback vs. Swayback issue). The heat in most case are keep under control, especial when the Double Heat Sink emerge next year. Again pointed out the AC/20 vs. MLAS comparison, for 15 tons (AC/20 with 1 ton of ammunition) you got 4x MLAS with only 1 generated heat (4x MLAS + 11 Heat Sinks)! And the AC/20 generate 7 heat for the same damage, range and tons!

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

They're not designed to fire /everything/ at once or they'd quickly melt, they're designed to use the appropriate weapon for the appropriate situation.

Well, that's an another problem, the boating. You are more usefull, when concentrate for ONE type of weapons. Like again the Hunchback vs. Swayback comparison, but we can note the Awesome an another great example.

An Awesome simply make great at medium/long range (and in most MW games, still very good at short range, because there is no penalty for short range). When you choose a complex loadout (for example AC/20 for short range and LRM-20 for long range) you are less effective even in short range AND long range against the concentrated type of loadouts. Yes, it's a tactical thing - you are still more effective in a half-hearted short range weaponry against a full long-range loadout, WHEN you can reach the enemy. But in most time that's won't happen...

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

All ammo supply dumps and infinite reloads does is dumb the game down and make the obvious weapon ballistic weapons. Two AC 20's, why not, don't have ammo issues and I'll kill everyone fast!

Actually i'm not too fond for the resupply on the battlefield idea, i believe even if the resupply are placed in the game, many drawback emerged for that. Like the mech need to be powered down for a great amount of time (half of minute or even a full minute) until it's resupplied.

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Personally, I want to see more variation than that. Ammo has to matter, and it has to be limited, considering that missiles and AC's can put out twice the damage of a PPC.

Agree about that, the key is the balance.

Edited by Cifu, 05 May 2012 - 04:44 AM.

[Sassori]

If you're not fond of resupply in the battlefield then why are you wanting ammo dumps?

Ballistics and energy are already balanced. Lets take your gauss vs ER PPC comment.

We'll even go with Clan just cuz.
Clan ERPPC: 15 Damage, 15 heat, 23 max range, 6 tons, 2 crits
Clan Gauss Rifle: 15 Damage, 1 Heat, 22 range, 12 tons, 6 criticals, 8 rounds per ton.

To make a Clan ERPPC equivalent to 1 heat takes 14 additional heat sinks, or, 7 double heat sinks. So that's at minimum 7 additional tons which puts our ER PPC equivalent to a Gauss Rifle with 1 ton of ammo. But it takes /20/ critical locations! 20! For the same weight.

When space is an issue (Like in big mechs) over weight, that's where Ballistic weapons reign supreme.

I can take a 2 Gauss Rifle (2 Heat), and 2 LRM-20 (12 Heat), add in 6 tons of /normal/ heat sinks to be heat neutral for the price of 44 tons + ammo. Then I can throw some short range lasers in there say... 5 of them (15 heat) for close range and BAM, I've got a mean machine. Especially with XL engine and Endo Steel and I'm not even using double heat sinks.

Clearly that's a long range mech, but it puts out stupid amounts of damage at range and fair damage up close (25 damage is a nasty close range punch) for those lights and mediums who will be hunting you since you're going to want to keep range from another assault weight brawler.

To do the same with energy weapons I need to use ER PPC's, to match the potential of my other mech (30 from Gauss, 40 from missiles) that's 4 ER PPC's and a normal PPC effectively! In order to do that I'd need to have the ability to dispense with /72 heat/ while remaining heat neutral. That's 36 double heat sinks. With a 400 rating engine that can hold 16 heat sinks, so I've got to come up with 40 additional critical slots for heat sinks, 6 additional slots for engine criticals, plus 7 additional criticals for endo steel. There's only 47 free critical slots on a mech. 51 if you rip off the lower arm and hand actuators. Still not able to fit everything, AND, I've got /zero/ short range punch.

They balance fine depending on what you want to build. In a very small vacuum, yeah, anything can look imba. Things aren't.

[Zakatak]

Where are you guys getting the idea that being able to resupply is the exact same as having infinite ammo, and thus cheating?

If we are going by the ammo truck method, then the mech needing a resupply will have to shut down a full minute as his stocks are restored. If someone lands so much as a small laser on that ammo truck, both targets get blown sky high. If we are going by the "base" method, the mech is going to have to walk 2 minutes to get to base, 1 minute to resupply, and another 2 minutes to get back to the fight. It is likely these places will only have enough ammunition to fill you up once, to prevent "camping the supply line".

This isn't cheating, or instant gratification, or imbalance. You may even consider getting a resupply too wasteful to bother with and go try to laser and DFA people. Considering this cheating is like considering sitting in water cheating, because you don't take on heat from your energy weapons,

Edited by Zakatak, 05 May 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

@Christopher Dayson : "When space is an issue (Like in big mechs) over weight, that's where Ballistic weapons reign supreme." For the weapon ALONE, perhaps, but factor in the ammo it NEEDS to be well, useful, it starts to fall behind energy weapons quickly. If I am down to my last few tons on a mech, and ive that omnislot in my mech, Im gonna cram an energy weapon in faster than you can count 1 from 1. Why? My fusion reactor IS my ammo supply. No need to take heavy bullets or slugs or missiles.

[Sassori]

Read the whole post. I already factored in space for ammo. For assault weights you get more damage out of a mix of ballistic + Missile + Energy than you do out of going full one over the other.

[neodym]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

No, we don't need ammo stations. If we have ammo stations then the ballistic weapons become VASTLY superior to energy weapons. Where is the risk in taking an AC 20 or a Gauss Rifle if there's no ammo issues?

I can thumb the trigger and hold it down all day then go reload and be walking death with zero heat issues!

That's what infinite ammo does.

The reason you see energy weapons on a mech is so they /don't/ run out of ammo, but they have higher heat output. Lots of mechs have a Ballistic or Missile primary weapon system, but have medium lasers and a large laser for back up.

They're not designed to fire /everything/ at once or they'd quickly melt, they're designed to use the appropriate weapon for the appropriate situation.

All ammo supply dumps and infinite reloads does is dumb the game down and make the obvious weapon ballistic weapons. Two AC 20's, why not, don't have ammo issues and I'll kill everyone fast!

In MW3 I remember running into Dual U-AC/20 Timber Wolves/Mad Cats. In fact... it was those, shadow cats with a billion small lasers, and missile boats only...

Personally, I want to see more variation than that. Ammo has to matter, and it has to be limited, considering that missiles and AC's can put out twice the damage of a PPC.

I like how you portrait ammo refit as something that would be instant,risk less and without any limitations few steps away from middle of battlefield

Edited by neodym, 05 May 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[Cruxshadow]

Limited ammo supply is the point of having ammo in the first place. That is one of the considerations when choosing whether to use ACs and missiles or energy weapons. The art of mech piloting is working out just the right mix for how you fight your mech.

[Steel Talon]

No matter on ressuply method, empty non-scout mech is useless, it should either replenish ammo or withdraw (considering MWO should be sim-like)

[Sassori]

steel talon, on 06 May 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

No matter on ressuply method, empty non-scout mech is useless, it should either replenish ammo or withdraw (considering MWO should be sim-like)

Since when is it useless? It can shield it's friends, it can charge, if it's jump capable it can death from above, it can scout and force the enemy to move or deal with it.

Just because a mech is out of ammo doesn't mean it's useless (Though I disagree with any mech design that /only/ uses ammo to begin with), it just means you need to stop thinking that Guns = All.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

If the devs decide that there isn't enough ammo in the ;loadouts of standard mechs to last a full match then it is possible that they wuill up the count per ton rather than mess around with reloads. If they leave it at TT levels then its intentional.
I can see a case to be made for people playing "dropship" mode where they keep coming up against fresh mechs as people are killed off and reappear in another mech. Alternatively if your that good, maybe you go for energy only variants.

[Zylo]

I still think players are overestimating the amount of ammo they will use as well as any need to resupply.

Players shouldn't expect to see 1 guy on the team killing all 12 of the enemy mechs each match. Instead it will probably be a small number of players on each team with 2 to 4 kills each on average with the rest of the team showing a 0 kill count (much like WoT matches).

[Steel Talon]

Christopher Dayson, on 06 May 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Since when is it useless? It can shield it's friends, it can charge, if it's jump capable it can death from above, it can scout and force the enemy to move or deal with it.

Just because a mech is out of ammo doesn't mean it's useless (Though I disagree with any mech design that /only/ uses ammo to begin with), it just means you need to stop thinking that Guns = All.

I hate guys that want sim-like game then they want to prevent empty mech from retreat --- its like baking bread in fridge!

[Sassori]

steel talon, on 06 May 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

I hate guys that want sim-like game then they want to prevent empty mech from retreat --- its like baking bread in fridge!

Wait wait, you /hate/ me because I see use for a mech where you see none other than 'retreat'? It's the MechWarrior universe. Retreat and Re-Arm in combat isn't really possible unless it's a battle that stretches out /days/.

[Yeach]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 06 May 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

If the devs decide that there isn't enough ammo in the ;loadouts of standard mechs to last a full match then it is possible that they wuill up the count per ton rather than mess around with reloads. If they leave it at TT levels then its intentional.
I can see a case to be made for people playing "dropship" mode where they keep coming up against fresh mechs as people are killed off and reappear in another mech. Alternatively if your that good, maybe you go for energy only variants.

I agree. I might need to make a poll (heh) in regards to this and Combat Loss Groupings

Combat Loss Grouping (from Sarna.net) The principle that a group of 'Mechs (or other vehicles) engaged in combat will accumulate damage over time, leading to a point where several or all of the group will succumb to damage at the same time. Can also be used to describe the time a unit sustains enough losses that it is no longer a viable fighting force.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Christopher Dayson, on 06 May 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Since when is it useless? It can shield it's friends, it can charge, if it's jump capable it can death from above, it can scout and force the enemy to move or deal with it.

Just because a mech is out of ammo doesn't mean it's useless (Though I disagree with any mech design that /only/ uses ammo to begin with), it just means you need to stop thinking that Guns = All.

Christopher Dayson, on 06 May 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Wait wait, you /hate/ me because I see use for a mech where you see none other than 'retreat'? It's the MechWarrior universe. Retreat and Re-Arm in combat isn't really possible unless it's a battle that stretches out /days/.

Lets face facts here. Tell MODERN day warriors that once they are empty of ammo they should just shield those who still have ammo. You will get looked at like your insane. Retreating for tactical reasons like making an Assault mech that uses ammo, well, more than a walking shield is making it so that some of the largest weapons in your lance/team are well, PULLING THEIR BLOODY WEIGHT AND BEING USEFUL. Making it so an Assault mech carrying the largest weapons you can field on a mech that are ammo dependant run out and giving them no option but to become a shield or look for a way to self destruct is beyond inefficient, it borders on warcrime. Just glad that NOW ppl are starting to see what I have said all along.

[Sassori]

Mechwarriors fight on the INTERPLANETARY SCALE.

They could well be HUNDREDS OF MILES from their support lines and expected to do a job.

Retreat is not always an option.

I wouldn't tell MODERN warriors anything about mechwarriors. Why? Because the modern warrior has access to ship based weaponry that would flat out destroy mech's. We've micronized tactical nukes almost to where they can be used as conventional artillery. Mechwarrior/BattleTech is /not/ the real world.

WE HAVE BETTER TECH THAN THEY DO in many, many ways.

Also, in war, modern day soldiers aren't allowed to retreat as well in many case. They do the job, or they die. Telling people to retreat just because they ran out of ammo instead of supporting their brothers in battle is insulting.

A mech that has somehow chewed through all it's ammo, and lost all it's back up weaponry (You did take some medium lasers for back up right?) still has the ability to influence the battle.

If I were a merc, I'd rather fight beside the guy who still stuck in the fight than ran away cuz his AC-20 ran out of ammo cuz he lit up like an imbecile.

[Rejarial Galatan]

<sigh> saying 2012 <in most cases> technology is vastly superior <forgetting for the moment this is crossing reality/fiction lines> technology to something a THOUSAND YEARS beyond us is stupid. It would be akin to saying technology from 1012 is superior to ours now. While yes, some technology, like that that was used to build with such scary precision the Pyramids in Egypt <but the running guess is Alien assistance with that> can make SOME of our building practices seem like tinker toys now. But, combat tech a milennia from now will out strip ANYTHING we have now. period. Also, retreat is ALWAYS an option. No military organization would order its soldiers to remain in a fight when they are out of ammo or out gunned. They would face war crime charges for that. Now, drifting back into BTU saying that we are HUNDREDS of miles from our DS's or any other form of support to keep our machines going is stupid. A few miles <10-20> at MOST just to keep them out of LOF. Lets run a hypthetical situation with the following as assumed GIVENS: some sort of repair/reload IS on field for each side and every player of both teams is on team specific VOIP. THOSE are the givens that as of yet are up for speculation for real.

NOW, lets play! Lets say, I matchmade into commander slot with my Assault Mech, and lets say my team actually listen to orders I bark out during a fight. Lets say some of my assaults are ammo boats. and I have a nice balance of other roles and mech types. Both sides are balanced in numbers and mech types and what not. NOW. The fight has been going and a few of my ammo boat assaults report ammo empty. I would sure as I am typing them order them off the front line to reload and then get back with all best speed. I want my big guns doing what they do BEST, killing things. I DONT want them being a 100ton shield, that sets my side at a major disadvantage.

Retreat for repairs or reload is a viable tactic that should NOT be overlooked. It sure as hell isnt IRL, no reason for it to be in game either.