589 replies to this topic

[Aelos03]

Tryg, on 29 May 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Absolutely Aelos, in-game voip is one of the best ways to find friends (and potential recruits) for units. Best way to flag a pub player as a potential recruit is see how he meshes with your unit. But how can you do that if you're not in direct communication with him? How can you assess his or her capabilities as a team player if they're locked out of your voice comms and forced to try and guess what it is you want based on minimalist commo-rose style callouts.

Just being able to use the click of a button to tell someone vital information, catch an atlas in an urban environment, seemingly alone. A nice juicy target for a skirmisher to flank and harass, however, if you happen to know from experience that his lancemates are hanging out in side streets waiting to corner a skirmisher.... you might want to be able to warn your side's skirmishers. And a 'scout' module won't reveal that info if you haven't seen em. Sometimes you recognize a tactic because you've seen it before. Experience is a huge part of any team-based tactical game, and a lack of voip removes this capability from pug teams. Now because you don't have an in game, that skirmisher is going to die simply because you couldn't tell him what he was walking into. (In the time it takes you to type up a warning to get his attention, it might be too late and he'll have bumbled into the trap) and a commo-rose "Look Out" command makes your whole lance, potentially even your whole team stop and potentially get into trouble over a call meant for one mech.

well i think you said everything that needs to be said, hahah a laughed a lot on "look out" sad thing is that its true

[Gaius Cavadus]

I don't understand the anti-VOIP crowd at all.

All that needs to be supplied is a global VOIP on/off setting in the options and then the ability to mute individual players while in-game.

So if you don't like VOIP disable it. Those of us who want to use it, will.

Done.

[pursang]

Cavadus, on 29 May 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

I don't understand the anti-VOIP crowd at all.

All that needs to be supplied is a global VOIP on/off setting in the options and then the ability to mute individual players while in-game.

So if you don't like VOIP disable it. Those of us who want to use it, will.

Done.

You're right, you don't understand the "anti-VOIP crowd" at all.

[Creed Buhallin]

Cavadus, on 29 May 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

I don't understand the anti-VOIP crowd at all.

PGI has a finite amount of development resources - time and money. At the moment, they haven't budgeted a VOIP system. Suggesting they add it means something else comes out - a new map, a new 'mech, a different gameplay mode, more testing time, more bug fix time, other features... Something has to give. For people who don't find VOIP as important, that tradeoff is a loss.

Does that help you understand?

[pursang]

Creed Buhallin, on 29 May 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

PGI has a finite amount of development resources - time and money. At the moment, they haven't budgeted a VOIP system. Suggesting they add it means something else comes out - a new map, a new 'mech, a different gameplay mode, more testing time, more bug fix time, other features... Something has to give. For people who don't find VOIP as important, that tradeoff is a loss.

Does that help you understand?

Bingo. This guy gets it.

Nothing in this world is free.

[Tryg]

Creed Buhallin, on 29 May 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

The issue is whether people think the VOIP system would be useful enough to be worth the development cost - essentially, whether it would provide appropriate ROI. Lots of people, the devs included, seem to think it won't. You've done a good job of arguing what the impact is of not having it, but you've done pretty much nothing to show that having VOIP in-game would correct those impacts, and nothing to validate the ROI.

The ROI is a difficult to determine and oftentimes an arbitrary number when working development. It's a 'best guess' which may or may not have any bearing on the actual returns of a system. The return on it may be great, allow for a coordination that enhances the team-dynamic they're trying to instill into their game. And if the game is populated predominantly by xbox players who will simply disable it, the return will be substantially worse. My experience in games that leave it out has in general been poor, not having that option always makes a game far more chaotic and far less team-oriented. I've played games with mic-spam and other voice-atrocities, and they're easy enough to cope with provided the voip system in place isn't done by someone who has no concept of the necessary parts of the system.

Again, this is coming from an opinion, but in my mind, if the focus you are aiming for is /Team/ play, features that enhance team play should be included as part of your figures. It absolutely boggled my mind to hear they had dismissed it so easily when everything they've touted about the title suggests it's intended as a team-based game. That they don't have a budget for it suggest that someone REALLY dropped the ball when putting together the budget as the cost involved should have been figured from the start.

If the desire is for a non-team CoD style of play, where individuals work on their own towards the same general goal, then no, VOIP isn't going to be a truely necessary feature. But if you want individuals coordinating to function as a cohesive team, leaving VOIP out detracts from that experience substantially.

*edited to fix a couple spelling mistakes

Edited by Tryg, 29 May 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[Creed Buhallin]

Tryg, on 29 May 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

But if you want individuals coordinating to function as a cohesive team, leaving VOIP out detracts from that experience substantially.

The important question is whether or not adding VOIP in will actually do this. That's the point I think people are disagreeing on.

You're saying a lot of true things that I think most people agree with. But you also cite "non-team CoD style of play", which is the ultimate counterexample to your entire argument. Despite your description, many of CoD's game modes are team-based, and coordinated teams function as well there as they would here. But the team-wide VOIP is rarely used. People simply turn it off, or are in their own channel, or may have it on but don't speak.

You keep saying things that nobody disagrees with. The question that you keep dodging, though, is why you expect people to use the system when pretty much every other game out there has shown that they won't. That's the real question you have to answer about ROI. Yes, without it individuals will be left out and comms will fragment. What we're saying is that WITH IT, individuals will be left out and comms will fragment. So what's the point of spending on it?

Edit: And you should really watch saying things like "That they don't have a budget for it suggest that someone REALLY dropped the ball when putting together the budget as the cost involved should have been figured from the start." If VOIP is as important as you think it is, yes. But if not - and the devs obviously decided not - then leaving it out of the budget was a perfectly appropriate move. Please don't ascribe incompetence on their part to a difference of opinion.

Edited by Creed Buhallin, 29 May 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[BOTA 49]

Personally I despise VOIP in games. It's extremely rare that it works out for it's intended use. The only game I can honestly think of that it's even remotely useful is ArmA, and that's mainly because the community is (or was, before Day Z) rather mature, combined with the channeling system (global, team, squad, vehicle, and direct). My team has functioned as an invite only team with third party communications for over 12 years. We invite everyone on to our comms, but the way we direct an invite personally to our server is when we have someone who tags along and plays as a team member either via in-game chat or simply by playing along side us. From there it grows, and we've had more success with that than keeping an open ear for everyone.

Of course, everyone is different. Some may use it as so, but like I said, in my experience it's mainly used for other things (smack talk, trolling, screaming, and all around unpleasantness). What I would rather see is an automatic call out in certain situations. For example, the first hit that I take have it automatically send out some text saying "<myname> is under fire at grid xxxx" or when an enemy is tagged have it call out "<tagger> has tagged <taggee>" or something to that effect. It would probably work out way better than you think.

Using ArmA as an example again, many servers have it where your character will automatically call out enemies, injuries, positions, and combat status depending on the situation. You could be playing on a server where literally not a single person speaks, but because of this almost everyone sticks together and works as a team, or at least more so than most titles. I wouldn't want EVERYTHING called out as that would be excessive, but the basics (I'm under fire here, I'm critical, I have a contact at grid xxxx, etc etc) would pull people together a lot more than ingame VOIP almost every time.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by BOTA 49, 29 May 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[Tryg]

CoD is one of the few games I've played where cohesive voice chat was outright ignored. In battlefield it was used to great effect, in games such as Counter-strike and Left 4 Dead it has been my experience that such features are used extensively. There will always be those who won't use it, either from not having the hardware or from a distaste for it. The latter group, nothing can be done for. If you don't like it, you won't use it. The former however, can still be capable of hearing information passed their direction.

I fail to get this pretty much every other game shows they won't. CoD is the only game I've played with in game voice that wasn't utilized in a beneficial manner. Every other game I've played that included it, more people used the in-game to benefit then those who abused it. Even with clans utilizing third party software, the ability to communicate with non-unit personnel in matches has become a staple of anyone who plays to win, whether casual or serious. Of the three gaming groups I've been a part of, none of them would have existed without in-game voip. All of them were geographically spread out players who never would have met under 'normal' circumstances, and never would have come together to create a gaming unit if we hadn't been able to converse with each other and discover that hey, when we work together we get along rather well.

And as I've stated before, I'll have my unit comms and I will have em open to whoever I happen to be running a match with. But I still find the lack of in-game comms a detriment to a team-based game and something that will lead to less coordination, not more. This means solid units will destroy pugs, pug players are going to get fed up, and ultimately population numbers will be out that many more potentially good players simply cause they weren't in a unit and wound up getting curb-stomped repeatedly.

Leaving it out may not be a game-breaker (I've posted in this very threat with or without I'll still be playing and putting my money in) but it will take away from the experience, and for some, it very well could be the factor that helps them decide whether to play or pass it over for something else.

[Thoman Coston]

No, not a mistake, it is a good decision.

During my whole MW4 time, every team either use TS or Vent. Going back to MW3 and MW2...text chat, typed everything.
Eve...eve voice sucks. Thus almost every corp in Eve runs their own TS or Vent server.

There are so many third party voice comm software available, with quite cheap hosting prices or a player can even host it on their own PC if he has enough bandwidth. In game voice chat is redundant.

[shintakie]

Creed Buhallin, on 29 May 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

The important question is whether or not adding VOIP in will actually do this. That's the point I think people are disagreeing on.

You're saying a lot of true things that I think most people agree with. But you also cite "non-team CoD style of play", which is the ultimate counterexample to your entire argument. Despite your description, many of CoD's game modes are team-based, and coordinated teams function as well there as they would here. But the team-wide VOIP is rarely used. People simply turn it off, or are in their own channel, or may have it on but don't speak.

You keep saying things that nobody disagrees with. The question that you keep dodging, though, is why you expect people to use the system when pretty much every other game out there has shown that they won't. That's the real question you have to answer about ROI. Yes, without it individuals will be left out and comms will fragment. What we're saying is that WITH IT, individuals will be left out and comms will fragment. So what's the point of spending on it?

Edit: And you should really watch saying things like "That they don't have a budget for it suggest that someone REALLY dropped the ball when putting together the budget as the cost involved should have been figured from the start." If VOIP is as important as you think it is, yes. But if not - and the devs obviously decided not - then leaving it out of the budget was a perfectly appropriate move. Please don't ascribe incompetence on their part to a difference of opinion.

Most games that I've played that aren't on Xbox live that have their own VOIP programs generally get used a ton. TF2 and L4D are excellent examples of this. BF3, Portal, etc. The times where I see a VOIP program not used are either where there already is an established form of voice communication (MMO's fall into this category), or where the VOIP programs are terrible (all console shooters).

[Hawk Drakkarsson]

I've played a few MMO's with built in VOIP and honestly I've only seen one do it in a way that works rather well, EVE Online. There you can very easily set up private channels, block idiots, and have private meetings. However that is not the case with just about all the others I've played. Some games I have to turn off the VOIP just because of, previously stated by others, internet gangsta 13 year olds who are so hardcore their momma still makes their beds. Any merc worth running with would have at least vent and TS installed anyway and would not mind jumping to another channel as setup is pretty much ****** proof.

Also if I offended any retards, don't blame me. Blame bad DNA.
And if I offended any 13 yo Internet Gangsta's, who cares. Go cry to your momma.

[Thanassis79]

I do not know if there is any intention in trying arena fights were you are forced to queu solo (i.e.: every saturday seperate Arena fights from 18.00 till 22.00)
In this way you will not queu with guildies (so no TS/ventrilo advantage) and you can fiddle with scrambling / tracking /delay devices.
I can imagine it will be fun for the designers to see what happens with this. If there is a troller on the VOIC it should be fairly easy to mute the guy/girl (as if you would mute boobies :-D).
And if it kicks of you can have ranked competitions in it (like EVE online has their yearly event).

[Naduk]

Creed Buhallin, on 29 May 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

You keep saying things that nobody disagrees with. The question that you keep dodging, though, is why you expect people to use the system when pretty much every other game out there has shown that they won't.

who are you to say the systems wont get used, sure many people here say they would turn it off
yet there are as many who want the system, surely that is because they want to use it ? yes?

my entire clan was born via the inbuilt voip from battlefield 2 /2142
it started off as my brother and I, we played on a few servers regularly
we play for the team 100% of the time and some of the other PUG's took notice and would join our squad
many of the players didnt say anything via the voip, but they could certainly hear us and their actions/reactions proved that time and time again
there were several players who would actively seek us out (change team and join our squads) so they could play with us and they never said a word, but they obviously appreciated us communicating to them

people do NOT require the capabilities to send voice to be able to use the system
all they need are speaker/headphones and the team players among us will help them out, if they dont like someone they mute them, its real easy

as we played we found our selves playing with the same guys on com's often and strong friend ships grew
and from that our clan was founded
our clan is about 25 members strong our last recruit came from battlefield 2142
this was also the last battlefield game to have inbuilt voip

i know we are not the only clan who has these kind of origins
even tho we have our own voip coms, the biggest thing we miss from newer games is the lack of voip in it
the amount of times we want to say something simple that would just take way to long is painful
"tank driver enemy with c4 behind you"
"chopper pilot tilt your nose up i have no shot"
"sniper enemy on your six he is going to knife you"
"behind you im down!"
"drop me some ammo please im dry"

press a key and say it, the situation will turn to your advantage
try to type that out and the moment will be long gone and your random buddies are dead

i have used the voip in every game that has it
the only times this is untrue is when it is badly designed, Battlefield 3 and SpaceMarine come to mind as the worst examples

[Rodney28021]

the serious players will be using third party voip servers so i don't see a problem with ingame voip missing at launch. later on they can add it like most developers.

[Aelos03]

when i started to use voip in dota 2 it was awesome being able to tell someone something important in a second is good it saved me many times i was able to do things that otherwise was impossible because in middle of action it was required from me to stop press button type press button again in time i do that its all over and people with use it to Interact with each other and ones that die could discus things about match(share few jokes or something) list goes on and people should and will use it and there is no reason not to include it.And about ROI it will pay off people will like game more and that can encourage people to spend money on game, I just see so many good points why to have it in game,and i'm yet to see some valid argument why its not good to have it, and how many times i didn't want to talk but i was able to hear my teammates and know what they plan to do so i can jump in. good communication can lead to better chances of wining and it will be more fun so 2 in 1.

i can be with friends on Ts and use in game voip it looks i'm more then serious player

[Kusiami]

VOIP ranks pretty low on my list of must-haves for this title, seeing as there are so many great 3rd-party options. While the OP's points are valid, I feel they represent just too small of a minority to spend developer resources on. MWO will be a more tactical game than most and voice communications will play a vital role in maintaining cohesion and awareness during a match, but the vast majority of players will be joining merc' groups. Any merc' group that wants to hold onto its members will need to provide voice communications, at the very least (a snazzy website may not be required, depending on in-game assets available to units).

I would rather see the additional resources be spent on the meta game and adding more features to that (or at least making sure that its core functionality comes out within a reasonable timeframe).

If you're only looking to run with three other people, why not host your own VOIP server? Most broadband connections can handle pushing voice data to four clients while running an online game - without any major issues (ask me how I know this).

Edited by Kusiami, 29 May 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[Mechsniper]

As a long time combat arms player I am going to say this game will not fare well in the long run without an ingame VOIP. I have been a longtime mechwarrior fan and will play without it, but for this to be a sucessful venture for MWO it will be a must. This game is supposed to have recon and fire support roles. without VOIP all new guys coming into the game will be wiped out so bad they will give up pretty quick. A handful of old school players(many of whom already have clans from MW4 etc) will already have a VOIP and therefore a HUGE advantage over those without an ingame system. The recon and fire support roles will be lost to 5v5 heavy and assault mechs slugging it out because recon/fire support will still be typing info to fire when they close to cqb distances. In CA the VOIP works great. Dont want it, mute it. Room mods have the ability to kick screaming/abusive people. EASY! Without it, there will be very little clan formation. I met all the clans I have been a part of on the in game VOIP. I am an adult gamer and want to know who I am gaming with. We formed all adult gaming clans and had a great time. (this also kept our clan name clean as we had no 12 year old hacker aimbotting/etc when he thought no one was looking).
Another aspect of VOIP is that many of your gamers may be a one game player. They may not be interested in teamspeak etc being on their computer. I would rather just use in game unless I get a clan of good friends, which will not happen without the ingame version. Please add a VOIP ASAP Developers. It will help solidify the games future. Worth waiting for the next mech until this is done!

[Creed Buhallin]

Naduk, on 29 May 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

who are you to say the systems wont get used, sure many people here say they would turn it off
yet there are as many who want the system, surely that is because they want to use it ? yes?

Who are any of us to say that it will or won't be used? There are many who want it, and just as many who say they won't touch it. The predominance of my experience is that few people tend to use it even when it's available. Yours may be different - huzzah for you.

But in general, it's those who want VOIP who are hyperventilating over what will happen if it's not there. Game will fail, must have, unbalanced DOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!! etc. etc. etc. I'm merely expressing my opinion based on my past experience with in-game VOIP, which is that it's largely underutilized, and I'd rather see the development put elsewhere.

[TriggerhappySOB]

Glory, on 05 April 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I am glad there will be no VOIP - it will discourage the development of the deplorable troll/harasser community enjoyed by Call of Duty and other games with built-in VOIP. Really, who doesn't mute almost everybody right away?

When you get down to it, counter strike started it, but 12 year old british girls boys perfected it.

pursang, on 05 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

< ---- Guilty!

And I salute you good sir, for being another gamer who does it, and making me feel less alone in the gaming world!