310 replies to this topic

[Jacmac]

MCXL, on 02 November 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

Don't forget that crits will take out more heat dissipation, oh and higher repair bills.

This. Why would anyone waste their time on an energy build? You spend a huge amount of C-Bills upgrading to double heat sinks that take up a lot of space and when they get damaged cost more to repair. You get almost nothing out of it, maybe a couple more laser volleys in a minute.

If you look at the sustained DPS of consumable ammo vs energy, energy builds are just horrible. On paper they don't look so bad, but with heat being as bad as it is now, there is no sustained DPS in an energy build and the burst DPS doesn't cut it on the field.

[Weaselball]

I'd be in total favor of removing the upgrade / downgrade cost on DHS / SHS. This allows people who would normally be put off by the cost to get some testing in. Also, credit people who have already up/down graded.

Then, down the road a few weeks from now, when PGi has the DHS values right at the sweet spot that THEY want them to be at for the definitive future, they can drop everyone down to SHS (removing any additional ones) and re-implement the fee.

I know it's "beta lulz" but paying to test something that has a good chance of changing in the near future seems like bad practice to me, even if you're only spending c-bills and not MC.

Just my 2c.

[Asmeroth]

Founders Cat:

1ERPPC
3 Med Lasers
2 SSRMs
XL 300

29 SHS: 12 From the Engine 17 Outside (17 Tons+17 Crit Slots)

With 1.4HS: 16,8 From the Engine total (10 HSs + 2 HSs) 9 DHSs Outside (9 Tons+27 Crit Slots)

[HurlockHolmes]

Devils Advocate, on 02 November 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

I have two Awesomes, 8Q and 9M, the 8Q using 7 but capable of using 9 double heat sinks, the 9M presently using 12. The 8Q uses a standard 200, the 9M uses a 350xl.

The 9M is my "main" right now and consists of 4 large pulse lasers with 12 double heat sinks.

Standard 200 (8 heat sinks) + 7 double heat sinks right now -> 22 standard heat sinks. With the new math? 21. Yaaay.
350 xl (10) + 12 (including the 4 in the engine) double heat sinks right now ->34 standard heat sinks. New math? 30.8 .

Why am I being nerfed for wanting to use heat sinks? Why are you screwing my 9m build? It's a razor's edge I'm balancing all these weapons on, and losing almost 10% of my heat efficiency is going to screw me. I guess the large pulse lasers are gone, and large lasers will not be as efficient any more either. It's not like my build was incredible and invulnerable, but the nerf bat is wrecking it.

It's okay devils, maybe go out and find a nice k2 and put guass on it...

[Thuzel]

Awesome

4 Large Lasers
2 SSRM2
AMS

Right now, I've got about 18 total DHS in it and that's as much as I could throw in there (increased the engine as much as possible to maximize EHS). Right now I have an effective heat dissipation of 26 and it's playable but very hot. With the 1.4 change I'll have 25.2 dissipation, which is a downgrade and would make this mech more unplayable.

Not trying to be argumentative, but we shouldn't have to break out numbers on this. An Awesome should be more than capable of throwing 4 large lasers downrange. That's not even considering ER large's or PPC's.

Consider the balance against ballistics on that. A catapult can now handle 2 Gauss with relative ease, but 4 large lasers is almost too much for an Awesome. That doesn't make a lot of sense. A value of 1.6 to 1.7 would be acceptable, but 1.4 is laughable.

[Clay Pigeon]

SHS shouldn't be a viable option for people who can afford DHS unless they are crit-space limited.

BT, and by extension, mechwarrior, have powercreep built into the timeline.

Right now I have a K2 with 8 DHS outside of the engine

I'm getting
10 (engine are bugged) + (8x2) = 26 heatsinks, equivalent

after the patch I'll be getting
18x1.4 = 25.2 heatsinks, equivalent


This decision nerfs most post 3050 IS variants, and if applied to CDHS, will make clan mechs spend most of their time shut down from overheating.

DHS are supposed to be an upgrade, not a sidegrade. Yes a costly upgrade, because you pay for it with crit slots, but still an upgrade.

Edited by Clay Pigeon, 02 November 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[MCXL]

This is such a joke. Heats been broken the entire time I have been in beta, and even though several pillars of the community have written huge, in depth research papers on why heat numbers need to be lowered, or dissipation needs to go up across the board, PGI has never listened.

[New Day]

Kunae, on 02 November 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Stock Awesome 9M

Squidhead Jax, on 02 November 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Stock Awe- oh, wait, OP's got that covered.

Nope, it will stay exactly the same: http://mwomercs.com/...ines-100245300/

[Clay Pigeon]

Awesome 9m with the XL replaced by a std 300?

Edited by Clay Pigeon, 02 November 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Firion Corodix]

NamesAreStupid, on 02 November 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Nope, it will stay exactly the same: http://mwomercs.com/...ines-100245300/

Isn't that the point they are trying to make? It's totally useless and needed the DHS fix, but with the 1.4 version it will remain totally useless?

[aspect]

HBK-4SP

5x Medium Pulse Laser
2x SSRM2
1x AMS

XL255
8x DHS

Before (w/bug): 10 engine heatsinks (1hps) + 16 normal heatsinks (1.6hps) = 2.6hps
Before (w/o bug): 10 engine heatsinks (2hps) + 16 normal heatsinks (1.6hps) = 3.6hps
After patch with DHS: 10 engine heatsinks (1.4hps) + 11.2 normal heatsinks (1.12hps) = 2.52hps

If I used SHS only: 10 engine heatsinks (1hps) + 8 normal heatsinks (.8hps) = 1.8hps
So, after-patch DHS build is slightly worse than current and MUCH worse than it was supposed to be. Also, I am running medium pulses which create a really awesome build where I still have good speed, mostly full armor and have used up most of my crit slots, but are apparently getting an increase to heat generation.

Mentioned this in another post, but I just set this up LAST NIGHT and actually spent a decent amount of MC to buy and then sell mechs so I could get enough cbills in my enthusiasm to put it together. So now that it doesn't really work, I am actually out real $$. Lesson learned I suppose...

Overall, super lame.

Edited by aspect, 02 November 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Ansel]

Oh nice. It's still a downgrade when compaired to what I can get useing SHS in an atlas instead of being on par with what I could get.

Atlas 4xLL + 1xGR w/2 ton ammo 19 DHS. Normaly 3.8 heat dissipation per second with DHS.
Or Useing an XL engine and SHS I get 2.9 heat dissipation.

The changes to DHS make that 2.26 heat dissipation per second.

I would also like to have an explination of just how weaopns that can only ever fire at a set rate (thier current cycle rate) and are limited in number (hardpoints) can have their DPS exponentially increased. Do they even know what that word means? Are they so incompetent that they have to make up lies to justifiy their inability to do basic math? I would say so at this point lol.

[Like a Sir]

AWS-9M

4 Medium pulses
2 SRM4s
1 SRM6
385XL
Endo Steel.
20 DHS

Right now the mech is a blast to play, but has some average heat issues, I'm almost always in a premade these days, so whatever, was really looking forward to my heat efficiency going up a little after the heat sinks got fixed, but now I'm starting to suspect that it will actually get worse... And stock 9m? It shuts down after you shoot 3 ppcs together twice (i know you are supposed to chain fire those, but whatever). It's gonna get worse now... yeah...

[Adrienne Vorton]

did i miss something? 1.4? i thought double hs are called DOUBLE for a reason?

[Angel of Annihilation]

90% of the builds I wanted to use relyed heavily on DHS working at the 2.0 rate. Not even sure I am even going to be able to enjoy the game anymore.

Really kicking myself for not taking the Refund Sunday when I had the change. No clue why I actually thought PGI would actually fix it correct. Actually.....if I am not mistaken and someone please do the math. At a rate of 1.4, the heat disappation will pretty much remain the same as it is WITH the bug intact.

[Squidhead Jax]

NamesAreStupid, on 02 November 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Nope, it will stay exactly the same: http://mwomercs.com/...ines-100245300/

Dissipation equal to the -8Q, for a massive tech upgrade cost. With a stock configuration that runs much hotter, while it is supposed to be somewhat better cooled. -9M isn't as heat-stable as 8Q in TT, but now it's beyond ridiculous.

The problem isn't the change from current, it's that the kneecapping of DHS sucks hard... except for 'mechs that can nearly get by on engine heat anyway.

Edited by Squidhead Jax, 02 November 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Ravensol]

i'm running both normal cents and a wang. wang is gaus 2 med lasers ff armor and upgrade structure. one cent is ac2 2med laser 3 streaks ff armor upgrade structure other cent is 4 med laser 2 lrm 10s 17 normal hs ff armor and upgrade structure. really odd thing is both my normal cents are at 49.5 tons i have no more room for anything on either one of them (i know i could drop 1/2 a ton off the legs and up the engine but for a small amount of kph na isn't worth the investment atm.

[WardenWolf]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

90% of the builds I wanted to use relyed heavily on DHS working at the 2.0 rate. Not even sure I am even going to be able to enjoy the game anymore.

Really kicking myself for not taking the Refund Sunday when I had the change. No clue why I actually thought PGI would actually fix it correct. Actually.....if I am not mistaken and someone please do the math. At a rate of 1.4, the heat disappation will pretty much remain the same as it is WITH the bug intact.

It is somewhat better at just the 10 engine heatsinks, and better (but with reduced advantage compared to today) up to 6 additional DHS. At 7 DHS or more, though, the new rules will be *worse* than today (with the 'bugged' DHS). See here:

http://mwomercs.com/...89#entry1336489

[lceman]

Hunchie 4p running 4 medium and 5 small lasers. 19 Total DHS's (9 aside from the ones in the standard 250 engine). I ran 26-28 SHS's and an XL (Don't remember what size) before DHS's were implemented. Very hot build. While I agree a 35 point alpha with lasers should be quite hot, you shouldnt overheat after 3 alpha's with 19 DHS's. Its not like I'm trying to run 9 Medium lasers...

So currently I'm getting 10 from the bugged engine ones.. and (9x2)=18 from the others, for a total of 28.
After the "fix" I will be getting (19x1.4)=26.6.
So with the patch I'll lose 1.4.
The issue I have is that the 26.6 I will be getting is the same/worse than what I had with SHS's, only to not slot an XL. But if I get my right torso blown off, I am effectively useless anyway as I live with just 1 small and 1 medium laser. With the XL I'm just dead if I get my right torso blown off. Either way, I'm pretty much useless. And I spent over 1.5 mil thinking it would be going up to 38. While double might be too much--1.6-1.7 is much more of a "happy medium" when trying to "upgrade" to DHS's vs 1.4.

Edited by lceman, 02 November 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[NovaFury]

I run a Cat-K2 in something similar to the canon configuration, with 2 PPCs and a pair of medium lasers. The design mounts 11 DHS outside the engine, for 32 total heat dissipation with the current mechanics. I can fire my PPCs repeatedly and stay cool, but only do 20 damage per salvo, as compared to 30 per salvo with a Cat-K2 utilizing gauss rifles.

After the nerf, I will have 29.4 dissipation (I am currently running with bugged SHS in the engine, yet my dissipation gets worse, go figure.) and no longer be able to fire my PPCs continually. I've considered stripping my mech and replacing it with gauss rifles already, but after the patch I will be forced to do so to remain able to support my team.

On the plus side, with gauss, I will have extra heat dissipation from the engine heatsinks, allowing me to fire 2 defensive medium lasers effectively forever. Just need an XL engine...

Edited by NovaFury, 02 November 2012 - 03:54 PM.