532 replies to this topic

[Indoorsman]

Diablobo, on 08 November 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

None of this discussion would be happening if the MWO heat system wasn't completely and totally broken.

When a mech can never reach a zero heat level there is something seriously wrong. The simple act of running makes the heat bar rise and as long as you are running or moving at all, it will never go down to zero.

WHAAAAT??? Do you really mean to tell me that a mech that can dissipate enough heat to fire multiple PPC's is going to show a rise in heat levels from moving? Come on, man.

Right now, it is IMPOSSIBLE to design a heat-neutral mech in MWO. It doesn't matter how many heatsinks you stick on a mech, as soon as you move, the heat bar starts to rise. BROKEN, WEAK, STUPID.

The energy requirements to fire a PPC are met by a 0.5 ton engine, an XL100. So a PPCs' energy requirements must be extremely low. To move a CN9-D @ 126.4 kph you need a 30-53 ton engine. The lightest/smallest engine capable of moving an atlas is 15 times heavier than the lightest/smallest engine capable of moving a centurion. So all it takes to make a Centurion move is .5 tons, yet the CN9-D requires at least 30 tons to move 126.4 kph. That's an engine which is 60 times heavier to make it move 3.9x faster. Apparently a vast majority of an engines' power is for the sole purpose of moving the mech around... yet the miniscule power required to fire the weapons generates > 90% of the heat. Either the power consumed moving the mech around is used almost 100% efficiently... or the power consumed to fire weapons is used very in-efficiently.

TLDR, this isn't real life physics going on here.

[Misha Volkov]

Elizander, on 05 November 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

I wouldn't really be happy with the game if I could spam lasers and PPCs like I did in MW4 and completely forget that I had a heat bar. If the DHS heat is too low, they can raise it. They specifically stated they started on the low end so they don't have to end up reducing the DHS effectiveness and can instead raise it up slowly until it's just right.

Agreed with the above. Look at it this way, when they next tweak the DHS it'll look like a "buff" instead of a nerf. One of the fringe benefits of starting on the low end with tweaking.

Also agreed, on the the DHS must be an upgrade, but it should be a point where it doesn't make other items next to useless. If it means it's ideal for some setups to use it (upgrade), but is only a sidegrade ate best for some units, then I think it's somewhere along the right direction.

[Lord Draenor]

PPC's and LL are not efficient at all right now, with or without DHS. This should be fixed - I don't care how and I dont care about table top "fidelity"

[twibs]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Thats just it, the "core" ideas are no longer there. DHS is supposed to be HUGE, they are supposed to make SHS completly useless in most designs, they are the one piece of tech that gave the IS any chance of fighting the clans.

And now they are not even a upgrade over singles in most mechs?

Seriously am i the only one that see the issues with this(other than mister blastman and draigUK and antony weiner)

And still the DHS is upgrade for the light, medium and heavy chassis's. Granted assault mehcs are bit borked atm, but aren't you over exaggerating this a little? It's still beta-phase.

[Tokra]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Thats just it, the "core" ideas are no longer there. DHS is supposed to be HUGE, they are supposed to make SHS completly useless in most designs, they are the one piece of tech that gave the IS any chance of fighting the clans.

And now they are not even a upgrade over singles in most mechs?

Seriously am i the only one that see the issues with this(other than mister blastman and draigUK and antony weiner)

In most designs? Tell me ONE, only one, mech where its not better to just use double heat sinks (in the TT).

As soon as you have access to double heat sinks there is no need or reason at all to use single.
But all cry for balance on weapons. But dont care about it on other items.
A gauss is >>> compared to an AC20 in the TT. A standard PPC is >>> compared to the IS-ERPPC. But all call for balance on these.

The day they said they are doing DHS, i knew they will cause problems for the whole balance of the game. Because someone who use these is by default stronger to someone who dont use them. You might not like the 1.4 factor for the heatsinks, but i find it a good idea to keep them from being total overpowered. The way they are right now seems good. Double in engine, 1.4 for all other.


About the compare with the awesome mechs from Rifter: really smart to pick a upgrade mech that became worse with the refit in the TT to make compares from MWO to the TT . You are right about the "workhorse" Awesome. The one with 28 SHS and 3 PPC was a great mech. And they ruined it (like so many other) with the refit. Canon wise it was fine (stacking found again lostech in any mech like no good), but playwise they became worse. They took a nearly heat stable mech without ammo and gave him a heat problem combined with Streak ammo together with an IS XL engine .
You really picked the bad example of a refit .

[George Liquor]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

So a fully armored atlas has what, 120 armor on the torso? Asuming that the person put 80 up front and 40 on the back, that means to core him from behind you needed to do about 100 damage. Assuming you were using the most heat efficient weapon in the game, the medium laser, that would require roughly 20 shots. Considering the beam lasts a good half a second and the recharge time is a second or so, then it would take a single laser 30 seconds to do that kind of damage, or 10 medium lasers to do the trick in 3 seconds.

So unless you were using something a bit heavier then what is typically seen on a jenner, which would be justified in coring an assault mech with multiple barrages from behind in short order at the cost of the jenner having to downgrade it's engine or go into battle trusting in naught but lag and a thin layer of tin foil to armor it, I'll just assume you aren't good with the whole "passage of time" thing.

Edited by John Liquor, 18 November 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[Rifter]

John Liquor, on 18 November 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

So a fully armored atlas has what, 120 armor on the torso? Asuming that the person put 80 up front and 40 on the back, that means to core him from behind you needed to do about 100 damage. Assuming you were using the most heat efficient weapon in the game, the medium laser, that would require roughly 20 shots. Considering the beam lasts a good half a second and the recharge time is a second or so, then it would take a single laser 30 seconds to do that kind of damage, or 10 medium lasers to do the trick in 3 seconds.

So unless you were using something a bit heavier then what is typically seen on a jenner, which would be justified in coring an assault mech with multiple barrages from behind in short order at the cost of the jenner having to downgrade it's engine or go into battle trusting in naught but lag and a thin layer of tin foil to armor it, I'll just assume you aren't good with the whole "passage of time" thing.

I agree that post was complete BS, i spent hours trying to figure out a single jenner weapon combo that could pull that off in three seconds and cant do it, it just isnt possible, even ML with the recharge time does not allow them to be fired twice in three seconds, the only weapon that could get off 2 shots in three seconds is a PPC and you cant load enough PPC onto a jenner to do that amount of damage in three secons(would require at least 4 PPC's on a jenner and the PPC's alone would weight more than the jenner has wight limit allowable for weapons so this isnt possible...

Not only that but if he did indeed do it in three seconds the SHS/DHS is totally not the issue as any weapon combo you can possibly put on a jenner will fire twice before overheating anyways even with only the stock 12 SHS so it certainly was not DHS being overpowered that lead to him being able to accomplish what he said he did.

[AntharPrime]

Helmer, on 05 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

When developing MWO PGI started with the exact TableTop stats . As someone who has been testing since the early Friends and Family stages, I felt that the game (with a 1 - 1 TT translation) was simply not fun.
Small lasers on a fast moving 'mech was an instant win button, LRMs were grossly ineffective, and Autocannons were next to useless.

This is so funny because it's still true.

[Yukichan]

Rifter, on 18 November 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

I agree that post was complete BS, i spent hours trying to figure out a single jenner weapon combo that could pull that off in three seconds and cant do it, it just isnt possible, even ML with the recharge time does not allow them to be fired twice in three seconds, the only weapon that could get off 2 shots in three seconds is a PPC and you cant load enough PPC onto a jenner to do that amount of damage in three secons(would require at least 4 PPC's on a jenner and the PPC's alone would weight more than the jenner has wight limit allowable for weapons so this isnt possible...

Not only that but if he did indeed do it in three seconds the SHS/DHS is totally not the issue as any weapon combo you can possibly put on a jenner will fire twice before overheating anyways even with only the stock 12 SHS so it certainly was not DHS being overpowered that lead to him being able to accomplish what he said he did.

the jenner was a 6 small laser jenner, 18 damage to bring the atlas rear 20 armor to 2, then the next killed it because of the 1 HP internals bug.

[GaussDragon]

vifoxe, on 05 November 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

**** your lore, balance the game.

Essentially, this.

[Rifter]

Yukichan, on 18 November 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

the jenner was a 6 small laser jenner, 18 damage to bring the atlas rear 20 armor to 2, then the next killed it because of the 1 HP internals bug.

Yes with the bug this is possible for sure, however if there internal testing/balance team is making balance decision based off game breaking bugs then we are all ****** anyways and any discussion of the game and balance are completly irrelivant so im going to assume for my own sanity that they ARE NOT basing balance decisions on game breaking bugs.

[Yukichan]

Rifter, on 18 November 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Yes with the bug this is possible for sure, however if there internal testing/balance team is making balance decision based off game breaking bugs then we are all ****** anyways and any discussion of the game and balance are completly irrelivant so im going to assume for my own sanity that they ARE NOT basing balance decisions on game breaking bugs.

they didn't figure out that there was an internals bug till days after the ""fixing"" of DHS.

[MustrumRidcully]

To be fair to Garth - there may have been more examples. I still believe they must have gotten something wrong, because now, we have Full DHS 2.0 in our engines at least, and the pace of combat hasn't gone up noticeable. I think the only thing that changed is that more people are using Large Lasers and PPCs - because they are more viable if you get the DHS "injection" in your engine.

Maybe that will be PGI's solution to balancing DHS - making them mandatory for energy weapon users perhaps, but having heavier energy weapons need them to reach the potential of missiles and ballistics...
A very flawed approach that still kills stock mechs, but meh, it doesn't seem as if PGI cares for them.

[Rifter]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 November 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

To be fair to Garth - there may have been more examples. I still believe they must have gotten something wrong, because now, we have Full DHS 2.0 in our engines at least, and the pace of combat hasn't gone up noticeable. I think the only thing that changed is that more people are using Large Lasers and PPCs - because they are more viable if you get the DHS "injection" in your engine.

Maybe that will be PGI's solution to balancing DHS - making them mandatory for energy weapon users perhaps, but having heavier energy weapons need them to reach the potential of missiles and ballistics...
A very flawed approach that still kills stock mechs, but meh, it doesn't seem as if PGI cares for them.

This might be true if it wasnt for the fact that we have real DHS in the engine as a glitch/bug not some balancing decision as the patch notes specifically said the engine heatsinks as well were going to 1.4 with the external heatsinks.

[MustrumRidcully]

Rifter, on 18 November 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

This might be true if it wasnt for the fact that we have real DHS in the engine as a glitch/bug not some balancing decision as the patch notes specifically said the engine heatsinks as well were going to 1.4 with the external heatsinks.

Well, they claim it was intentional. Do we believe them? Maybe, maybe not, fact is, I haven't cored any Atlasses within 3 seconds so far. And I didn't just fail to do it with a Jenner. I failed to do it with another Atlas. 3-4 Salvos may be correct, seconds, nope.

[Lykaon]

Valder, on 05 November 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

I find my tier 2 equipment dragon far superior to my tier 1, because I designed it with real-time rules in mind, not because I was designing a tabletop mech. If I would have built a dragon using tabletop rules, it would probably be terrible.

You are overlooking a ligit concern the OP sorta indirectly touched upon.

Trial tier two tech mechs will suck.New players first rides will often be trial mechs that will possibly suck.

I also have a Dragon build that is faster,better armored,has higher damage output and superior cooling to any stock varient but new players don't get to pick my Dragon as a trial mech.

[Alexa Steel]

Hmm I do not share your concerns OP, you can build very effective builds as is. Sure you could build even MORE effective builds with lore stats. But that would be boring and besides the lore variants are bad and passable at best, every pilot can cook up something more efficient.

[Rifter]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 November 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Well, they claim it was intentional. Do we believe them? Maybe, maybe not, fact is, I haven't cored any Atlasses within 3 seconds so far. And I didn't just fail to do it with a Jenner. I failed to do it with another Atlas. 3-4 Salvos may be correct, seconds, nope.

Note im not saying you are wrong and it might very well be intentional but....


If it gets to the point that they are doing balance adjustments and then outright lieing about them in the patch notes to try and pull one over on the playerbase then we might as well flush this game down the toilet because thats where its headed. Open communication is a must.

[Cola]

People should stop being upset about this not being a 100% perfectly true to TT or quote uoquote a Battletech game anymore. I'm just be happy after what almost 10 years? 5 if your a Xbox kiddy and want to include the **** Assult games, sence we had anything done with Mechwarrior by a developer, were getting a new game.

If you don't like the way this game is going there are 3 paths you can follow,

1. Quit playing
2. Cry about it
3. Make your own dam game.

Everything in this thread has been said already.

[Windies]

Alexa Steel, on 19 November 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

Hmm I do not share your concerns OP, you can build very effective builds as is. Sure you could build even MORE effective builds with lore stats. But that would be boring and besides the lore variants are bad and passable at best, every pilot can cook up something more efficient.

I don't disagree, I can build very efficient mech's that kill very quickly. The problem I and many others have is that no matter the chassis or the role I build the mech to fill, I have to use the same weapons on every build. I look at three things when building a mech, firepower, mobility, heat production/dissipation. The less mobile a mech is the more reach I want my firepower to have, while at the same time not costing me so much heat production that I cannot feasibly dissipate it during an engagement. This is the problem you run into with higher heat weapons like AC/20, PPC, ER PPC, LL, ER LL etc..

I also know that due to map design, I do not need a weapon that strikes over 300-400m. Unless I pilot specifically for an engagement at that range, and my enemy pilots for an engagement at that range, It's simply unneeded. This is why you see ML's, SL's, SPL's and MPL's, being the highest efficency weapons, not only in just heat, but also usability and functionality. Gauss as well though it really doesn't need to be used as an example.

I'm not saying you can't be effective with the higher heat weapons, I know that I can be, However when compared to other weapons they are just simply vastly inferior. You don't have to believe that, the math is there to prove it, the experience is there to prove it. Your belief or acceptance is strictly optional.