1392 replies to this topic

[ApheX]

I've had similar problems facing jenners. I'm not a bad shot with lasers, but one game while facing a jenner, i fired three large lasers into the centre armor of this mech and all i got was a big **** you, no damage. since then it's happened with jenners and commando's. I really like how the game is developing, but it the moment, this netcode is really putting me off.

[Aegis Kleais]

riot, on 14 November 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

Sry, no issues here with killing lights and no problem killing rookie Atlas pilots with my Jen.

Time your shots right and you get your lightkill, eg. when they are running away from you. Or left circling light, aim at right arm to hit ct. Noone ever played MW3?

Maybe this can help as workaround, until they can fix it.

You're just one of the lucky who isn't having the issue. Believe me, this has little to do with a lack of pilot skill. I do understand the concepts of lag shooting, but even this has proven fruitless.

Shot register on 50 tonners and up (possibly due to better model hitboxes and netcode on slower mechs), so this seems more specific to one area.

Having had a night to chill, I'm still hopeful that PGI can address this, but I'm sure that continued friction in future games can easily rekindle the frustration.

[Jock Blaine]

Aegis Kleais, on 13 November 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Pgi, I Usually Show You Love, But

Not today. My frustration has gotten the best of me.

And yet another: "Boohohohoo I want this fixed now thread." Nothing constructive. Nothing we don't know. Yes, some people have problems with lag-shield. Aim in front of the Mech. Net-code is not as it should be. The devs know this, are working on improving it. And you have added the, what would it be, 200th? thread about it.

I have another suggestion for the developers. Besides the "Like this" button make a "Whiner" button. After 15 presses the thread gets automatically nuked.

It is beta. That does not mean they can use that as an excuse for every fault in the game but it does mean that you are testing. Submit a ticket to the devs with your (physical) location, ping times, which maps it happens on, etc. Try to figure out by shooting in front of the mech what the approximate lag-shield distance is.

That is useful. Whining on how you "like the game but..." and then start telling how you hate an well known bug is not helping anyone, least of al the developers who are trying to fix it.

[Chuckie]

I will have to see if I notice it..

I just attributed it to the LRM and SSRM nerf, as I am not normally firing Ballistics or Lasers unless forced to..

But knowing this thread was started by someone who has been here since early in Closed Beta, I am willing to take your word on it.

As for having "little to do with pilot skill"...

[Chuckie]

Jock Blaine, on 14 November 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

And yet another: "Boohohohoo I want this fixed now thread."

The thing to consider on this is Aegis, Myself, and many others that are right now coming out and making some noise is that :

1) A LOT Of us are early Closed Beta testers

2) Due to that we have seen the ups and downs, and truly understand this is a Beta

3) Most of us tend to be at least reasonably good pilots, with reasonably good machines

4) We have a lot invested into the game from an emotional and time spent in level

5) We also tend to not be the ones that cry over anything, knowing they will fix it and there are more than enough criers out there to handle letting the Devs know something ain't working.

So... we tend to not be the ones doing the complaining.

So.... when we do start to complain, there are becoming bigger issues for PGI & MWO

I think the last few patches have gone backward in balance and game play, and we are letting our concerns be known as we feel they need to stop this slide before it becomes a permanent problem.

The 4 + 4 thing, Fast Mechs becoming even harder to take down, the Missile nerfing, etc.. is starting to really become detrimental. To me the balance was really good pre-11-7 Patch. They added ART, and yes it included bugs, then instead of bringing things back to 11-6, the added more bugs and screwed up the balance even more. To me this is a sign of someone on the Dev team not understanding how to adjust a game properly.

Thus the threads.

[Josh Davion]

PanzerMagier, on 14 November 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

No actually, a lot of players aren't fps dopes. Don't assume we played Mw3.

tl;dr

One step forward and 2 steps back doesn't work.

You assume he was referring to Modern Warfare 3... typical newcomer. The original MW3 was Mechwarrior 3, bro. Something a true fan would know about.

And I agree with Riot. The only time I have issues with Jenners is when I depend on SSRM's. Killing them with Lasers is just peachy.

[GioAvanti]

riot, on 14 November 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

Sry, no issues here with killing lights and no problem killing rookie Atlas pilots with my Jen.

Time your shots right and you get your lightkill, eg. when they are running away from you. Or left circling light, aim at right arm to hit ct. Noone ever played MW3?

Maybe this can help as workaround, until they can fix it.

Light mech pilot thinking he has skill....

Carry on.

PS - seriously though.. the issue is the stutter step and lag for some people... I have like 28 ping so the lag isn't the issue, but the stutter steps are.

[Mawai]

Hi,

I have played the Jenner extensively and I agree that they can be hard to kill.

However,

1) You have to aim in front of where it is moving ... many people don't seem to get this. I realize it doesn't make sense in any physical way and it is a netcode issue ... however, if you aim at where you see the moving mech on your screen the odds are you will miss ... if you aim about 1/2 to 1 mech length in front of a fast Jenner or Commando you will likely hit. Watch the reticle ... it will turn red when you are doing damage. In addition to this aim low ... leg armor is usually lighter and the fastest way to stop a light mech is to leg it.

2) I have spectated a lot of people since I usually watch until the end of the match instead of exiting. I have also played a lot of matches in an Atlas or Catapult. Most folks seem to have trouble aiming. They fire too soon. They overheat. They don't target the most damaged enemy ,,, usually just whoever is closest. They don't use R to see what the vulnerable areas are on their opponent. All of these make it much more difficult to engage fast light mechs.

3) Folks often also do not use terrain ... they don't try to get their back against a cliff to cut down on circle strafing. They also often do not switch to reverse and traverse the other way ... they keep trying to follow the light mech around in a circle ... always with their aim not quite on the light mech and then firing anyway praying for a hit. It doesn't work.

4) The last thing is that your best defence against light mechs are the light mechs on your team ... if the folks on your team are working together then there isn't a problem since the lights on your side will either kill or chase away the lights that are attacking the heavy/assaults.

Finally, this isn't TT. In TT, an Atlas would usually wipe the floor with a Jenner ... it has more weapons, more armor, longer range weapons and the Jenner's speed only results in a +4 to hit modifier. Dodging behind cover doesn't help either since the Atlas can just choose to fire when there is no cover. The BV2 of a JR7-D Jenner is 875 according to Sama ... the BV2 of an AS7-D Atlas is 1897. Based on that, you would need 2 to 3 coordinated Jenners to equal an Atlas. If MWO was balanced this way ... as most of the other MW titles have been ... then folks would get into the largest mechs available since the light mechs would not be contributing as much ... we could have Atlas Online or Daishi Online. This is made even worse with fixed size teams ... but folks would still likely choose to use the heaviest mechs available since they would be more fun and have greater survivability.

On the other hand, the balance that MWO is trying to put in place makes each class of mech useful. An Atlas will still carry much more armor, a wider range of weaponry for long or short range engagements, but will generally move slower. Light mechs are a significant threat if you leave the heavies and assaults unprotected ... but they can also be dealt with quite effectively ... I have certainly died enough .

Anyway, the bottom line is that I think PGI needs to work on netcode to try to make aiming at light mechs more intuitive. They also have a lot of other bugs and balance issues to work on ... but light mechs in my opinion aren't that far from where they should be if you want each mech class to be both useful and have a role to play.

If your team lets light mechs get behind them and operate without interference then you get what you deserve

Edited by Mawai, 14 November 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[Revorn]

Take the Ligths out of the Game and the Cicada as well, would be alot easier for PGI than to fix the Balancing ot Netcode i guess.

Every Game i play, at least 4 Mechs need about 2 Minutes to take out 1 Ligth. If this wouldnt be so sad, i would laugh about this.

[Jock Blaine]

Chuckie, on 14 November 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

The thing to consider on this is Aegis, Myself, and many others that are right now coming out and making some noise is that :
1) A LOT Of us are early Closed Beta testers

I don't think there is anything wrong with making lots of noise. But there different ways to do that. Your post for example contains critique, gives your opinions on the game state, but you do it in a matter of fact way. It is the kind of post I, would I be a developer, would read and put in consideration.
And actually I agree with you regarding some of the changes they made. And I even agree with the original poster that lag-shield is annoying and should be fixed. The problem I had with the original post is that it adds nothing, states a well known problem and we have seen many remarks by the developers that they are working on improving it.

Us playing the game, from all over the world, provides the developers with data. If you have the feeling it got better or worse after a certain patch, state that. It is useful information. writing you are getting frustrated is in no way helping the devs. What do you hope to achieve with that?

The extra problem I have with postings like that is, that if people actually give good feedback, it quickly gets drowned in these kind of threads.

[Aegis Kleais]

Jock Blaine, on 14 November 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

And yet another: "Boohohohoo I want this fixed now thread." Nothing constructive. Nothing we don't know. Yes, some people have problems with lag-shield. Aim in front of the Mech. Net-code is not as it should be. The devs know this, are working on improving it. And you have added the, what would it be, 200th? thread about it.

I have another suggestion for the developers. Besides the "Like this" button make a "Whiner" button. After 15 presses the thread gets automatically nuked.

It is beta. That does not mean they can use that as an excuse for every fault in the game but it does mean that you are testing. Submit a ticket to the devs with your (physical) location, ping times, which maps it happens on, etc. Try to figure out by shooting in front of the mech what the approximate lag-shield distance is.

That is useful. Whining on how you "like the game but..." and then start telling how you hate an well known bug is not helping anyone, least of al the developers who are trying to fix it.

Yeah, cause the vast majority of my 5000+ posts were all positive, it's expected of simpleton to zone in on the very few negatives and assume that's what I post more times than not. Nice try.

Aim in front of the Mech? Why would I do that? Is that some kind of new-fangled lag-leading methodology that's brand new to multiplayer gaming in 2012? Well, gee whiz, you highly skilled pilots are gonna have to show me how to do that.

Dumbass.

[Bodach]

I can tell you as a dedicated heavy and assault pilot, I hate to drop in groups without a Jenner or Cicada. I don't want them to scout, but to keep the enemy lights and mediums off of me.

[AvatarofWhat]

@Mawai

Leading the jenner is a problem because if they turn towards you or away from you then all the sudden your shooting at nothing. I lead fire on jenners all the time, but its not enough. It used to be more balanced because of collisions, now jenners will charge right through me!(which also breaks streak locks btw).

I do all the things you have suggested anyway(and have for a long time) and it is often not enough. I agree some players are just horrible and easy pickings for a skilled jenner pilot but still... I'll face down 2 atlai over a single jenner anyday.(And often win against the atlai with my CN9-D, not so much against a decent jenner pilot)

They need to bring collisions back ASAP because it was a critical part of game balance. Nothing more frustrating the having 4-5 lights on the enemy team.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

GioAvanti, on 14 November 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Light mech pilot thinking he has skill....

Carry on.

PS - seriously though.. the issue is the stutter step and lag for some people... I have like 28 ping so the lag isn't the issue, but the stutter steps are.

Just because you have a 28 ping doesn't mean the light mech has a good ping, and everything involved with firing a weapon seems to be server authenticated exacerbating any problems already existing with the netcode. The server authentication is also why lasers are not the anti-lag shield weapons they were in MW4, because your client has to talk to the server just to fire them, creating an instance of lag.

A lot of people who say they grasp the concepts of lag shooting and still complaining about not being able to hit the mech, generally don't fully grasp lag shooting. Another major problem is that people think there still isn't a problem when a light mech overheats, just as with the crouch-slide that existed in MW4, there exists a similar issue when mechs shutdown mid-run or just from overheat. I have a 68 ping and I find myself aiming 2-3 mech lengths ahead of where a Jenner is on my screen and doing full damage to them with a burst of lasers. The trick will always be finding that lag point (even the best netcode will have some sort of lag, it is just a matter of how noticeable it is).

The number of times I have heard complaints about how they shot a shutdown mech and it didn't register is numerous, so I kinda tested this myself, and shutdown lights appear closer than they are according to server, on an uphill slope, I have aimed for the rear torsos of several shutdown light mechs only for my damage to be registered on the leg instead, because the server recognized the Jenner as further up on the slope than he was on my screen. This is just to display that it really doesn't have much to do with hitboxes being wonky, more to do with terrible synch between servers and clients during these periods.

One last thing, while I do think they need some serious work on the netcode so I don't have to predict their lag point to be 2-3 mech lengths, but lag is the sole reason light mechs have ever been good in any mech game, because it does increase their survivability much more than just speed does on its own; as it adds some level of unpredictability that skilled players are able to reduce to almost non-existent. If peopled had how far you aim on a Jenner running 150kph down to a science, what is the point in running that fast if your enemy is always able to hit you at that speed? Good tactics will only get you so far in this situation. Not saying that the netcode doesn't need work, but allowing for some amount of lag is necessary for lights to be used as more than just scouts.

Edited by majora incarnate, 14 November 2012 - 08:19 AM.

[AvatarofWhat]

majora incarnate, on 14 November 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Just because you have a 28 ping doesn't mean the light mech has a good ping, and everything involved with firing a weapon seems to be server authenticated exacerbating any problems already existing with the netcode. The server authentication is also why lasers are not the anti-lag shield weapons they were in MW4, because your client has to talk to the server just to fire them, creating an instance of lag.

A lot of people who say they grasp the concepts of lag shooting and still complaining about not being able to hit the mech, generally don't fully grasp lag shooting. Another major problem is that people think there still isn't a problem when a light mech overheats, just as with the crouch-slide that existed in MW4, there exists a similar issue when mechs shutdown mid-run or just from overheat. I have a 68 ping and I find myself aiming 2-3 mech lengths ahead of where a Jenner is on my screen and doing full damage to them with a burst of lasers. The trick will always be finding that lag point (even the best netcode will have some sort of lag, it is just a matter of how noticeable it is).

The number of times I have heard complaints about how they shot a shutdown mech and it didn't register is numerous, so I kinda tested this myself, and shutdown lights appear closer than they are according to server, on an uphill slope, I have aimed for the rear torsos of several shutdown light mechs only for my damage to be registered on the leg instead, because the server recognized the Jenner as further up on the slope than he was on my screen. This is just to display that it really doesn't have much to do with hitboxes being wonky, more to do with terrible synch between servers and clients during these periods.

One last thing, while I do think they need some serious work on the netcode so I don't have to predict their lag point to be 2-3 mech lengths, but lag is the sole reason light mechs have ever been good in any mech game, because it does increase their survivability much more than just speed does on its own; as it adds some level of unpredictability that skilled players are able to reduce to almost non-existent. If peopled had how far you aim on a Jenner running 150kph down to a science, what is the point in running that fast if your enemy is always able to hit you at that speed? Good tactics will only get you so far in this situation. Not saying that the netcode doesn't need work, but allowing for some amount of lag is necessary for lights to be used as more than just scouts.

I've seen skilled light pilots pick apart heavier mechs by always staying in their rear arc, and jumping from cover to cover while taking potshots at the enemy. In this case their success had nothing to do with lag and everything to do with their tactics and skill. Being able to know where the enemy jenner is isn't enough to nerf them to oblivion. Speed is still a huge tactical advantage, if you know how to use the terrain to the best of your advantage. If the whole map was one big open field then, yes I would agree with you. Luckily it is not.

Edit- Besides Lights are not supposed to be taking on heavy mechs by the dozen. They are supposed to fulfill the very important role of scout and also capture objectives while harassing the enemy. They have their purpose and while a skilled light pilot should still be able to kill a not so skilled atlas pilot in 1 on 1, as it stands a skilled atlas pilot will lose to a less skilled jenner pilot in 1 on 1 combat out in the open which seems a little baffling to me. As it stands the jenner is the best mech in the game by far. I would take on 2 atlai with my CN9-D anyday, 1 jenner... not so much.

Edited by AvatarofWhat, 14 November 2012 - 08:29 AM.

[Jock Blaine]

Aegis Kleais, on 14 November 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

Yeah, cause the vast majority of my 5000+ posts were all positive, it's expected of simpleton to zone in on the very few negatives and assume that's what I post more times than not. Nice try.

The fact that you have over 5000 posts is not an excuse. The problem remains that it is yet another thread drowning out those posts that might actually help, and frankly, if you spend so much time on the forum, you should know better. Lastly, if you don't want people to zone in on a posting: don't post it. (And maybe avoid name calling, so we can take your posts more serious)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AvatarofWhat, on 14 November 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Edit- Besides Lights are not supposed to be taking on heavy mechs by the dozen. They are supposed to fulfill the very important role of scout and also capture objectives while harassing the enemy. They have their purpose and while a skilled light pilot should still be able to kill a not so skilled atlas pilot in 1 on 1, as it stands a skilled atlas pilot will lose to a less skilled jenner pilot in 1 on 1 combat out in the open which seems a little baffling to me. As it stands the jenner is the best mech in the game by far. I would take on 2 atlai with my CN9-D anyday, 1 jenner... not so much.

In a game where a 35 ton counts the same towards a team as a 100 ton mech, this is not the case.
This game is far from being objective based, and scouting is not as important as people often make it out to be. It is true information is an effective weapon, but their is no difference between a CN9-D and a Jenner other than the CN9-D has more armor and has somewhat similar firepower (if only the AL could still match the Ds speed).
A scout simply for the sake of eyes is wasted tonnage, especially in an environment in which scouts don't have anything special, as was the case when the Laserback ran almost as fast as Jenners, they replaced Jenners simply because they had all the advantage and no disadvantage (except for that giant RT and the slightly larger profile, but that is minor). Scouts are great pre-combat, it allows you to get into position or help stop a base rush, but the maps are so small this can be accomplished by a slow mech just standing watch, and once the battle commences, they can actually justify their tonnage in combat as well. Jenners have to be somewhat effective, and without some degree of lag, they are just easy-kills (regardless of tactics).

Sorry but good use of tactics in a light mech only keeps you alive when an enemy team makes stupid mistakes, a good team doesn't allow a light mech to capitalize on that, especially in a lag-free environment. Good teams don't ever allow for that 1-1 situation to happen.

[Name60014]

I love my Jenner. I hate the current collision model. I hate taking on other lights because sometimes the netcode/lagshield acts up. Other times it doesn't. Other times I'm firing at a shutdown Raven and NOTHING happens. I love sweeping lasers across stuff.

And the lag in updating the paper doll is great too. It comes and goes depending on local factors, which patch just got pushed, and generally how much the internet hates me. For the most part all of these problems are transient. Sometimes I"ll have a great match where I'm running 25+ fps, lag-shooting is tolerable, etc.

I *****, I moan,i I whine, I submit tickets, I consider quitting and then I come back and sit in our TS changing settings and not dropping with my clan because "there's just one more thing I have to try on my end." This game has me near obsessed with tweaking my system in order to overcome the issues that plague beta releases.

Anyone who has a problem with threads where no constructive criticism is being provided can shove it. Testing isn't all about coming up with workarounds. Sometimes its about complaining about problems. The same problems through each iteration of the client. The same problems which are aggravated, exacerbated, lessened, etc through each patch.

You might see whining. Some of us see a lot of data to mine through.

[AvatarofWhat]

majora incarnate, on 14 November 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

In a game where a 35 ton counts the same towards a team as a 100 ton mech, this is not the case.
This game is far from being objective based, and scouting is not as important as people often make it out to be. It is true information is an effective weapon, but their is no difference between a CN9-D and a Jenner other than the CN9-D has more armor and has somewhat similar firepower (if only the AL could still match the Ds speed).
A scout simply for the sake of eyes is wasted tonnage, especially in an environment in which scouts don't have anything special, as was the case when the Laserback ran almost as fast as Jenners, they replaced Jenners simply because they had all the advantage and no disadvantage (except for that giant RT and the slightly larger profile, but that is minor). Scouts are great pre-combat, it allows you to get into position or help stop a base rush, but the maps are so small this can be accomplished by a slow mech just standing watch, and once the battle commences, they can actually justify their tonnage in combat as well. Jenners have to be somewhat effective, and without some degree of lag, they are just easy-kills (regardless of tactics).

Sorry but good use of tactics in a light mech only keeps you alive when an enemy team makes stupid mistakes, a good team doesn't allow a light mech to capitalize on that, especially in a lag-free environment. Good teams don't ever allow for that 1-1 situation to happen.

I agree there needs to be a tonnage based matchmaking system. However you can't say that the CN9-D matches a jenners speed. Even with the 390 XL it still wont reach the same speed as a maxed out jenner and have barelly any space left for weapons. Also it wont have jump jets. Like I said scouting need not be the only reason for light mechs and we will have to agree to disagree on how effective a light mech can be in a non-lag environment if using cover to its full advantage. At the very least right now they need to bring back collisions. Also if you think a slow heavy mech can do the same job as a scout by simply holding back you are seriously mistaken. That mech will not be able to bring its firepower to bear against the enemy team because it wont be able to reach them as fast. Once again if the maps were all open fields your point would have merit but the time it would take for a heavy going 70 to cross a hill, move past building etc, vs the time it would take a jenner going 150 to do the same helps balance how much firepower each mech can lay down over time on the enemy team.

[Imagine Dragons]

Well, I suppose since this topic was made by Aegis, one of those fans of BT that have trademarked names (wow?), it certainly can't hurt getting the issue addressed...

I mean if one of the ardent fans of BT is expressing concern over :netcode: its probably not a minor issue...