201 replies to this topic

[Odin]

Good choices PGI.
MWO is MW "hard mode" a simulation of BT and Mechs - gameplay will benefit, I'm sure.

Way to go PGI!

[Felbombling]

This is shaping up to be very, very cool. I will be intersted to see if the engines available will be tied to the chassis, as was the case with table top and the calculation of desired walking speed multipled by the Mech tonnage. Other than that, everything looks pretty straight forward, but involved. It will be fun to see some of the configurations that come out of these Mech lab restrictions/requirements.

[soulfire]

that was it, just more mechlab? bah *goes back to bed*

[Thomas Hogarth]

InnerSphereNews, on 18 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

[DAVID] Hardpoints will limit the number of weapons that can be placed in a location on the ’Mech. The number of slots those weapons can occupy is not predefined (outside of the maximum number of slots in the location). So let’s say that I’m allowed 2 energy weapons in my right arm. I currently have 2 Medium Lasers which occupy 1 slot each. I would still be allowed to put in 2 Large Lasers, which occupy 2 slots each.

[PAUL] I’m not sure what you mean here. If you pull a PPC out of a hard point and you want to put 2 medium lasers in its place, there’s nothing stopping you from doing so. Just go to the store, buy 2 medium lasers, remove the PPC, put the 2 medium lasers in its space and Bob’s yer uncle! If you’re thinking that the PPC’s 3 critical slots must be filled with 3 medium lasers, then no, you don’t have to do that.

This is the only way I've been able to make sense of this:

So let's say JagerTrashCan JTC-1R has a right arm with one PPC, and three maximum hardpoints. You can rip out the PPC for 3 ML.

However, over on the left arm, you've got two LL, and only two maximum hardpoints. This means that you can only replace those two LL with two ML, not three. Or you can swap out the two LL for a single PPC. etc.

[Hartsblade]

InnerSphereNews, on 18 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Can we upload custom unit decals and how would that be handled? –Mason Grimm

[BRYAN] At launch, we do not plan to support custom unit decals as there are a number of copyright issues that creep up with user content. Since MWO is a live ops game, it’s never really handed over to the player, and we’re responsible for the content displayed.

This makes me sad. Does this also mean there is no hope of custom 'mech paint jobs (beyond the presented customizable camo system)?

Dihm, on 18 April 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Oh Paul...

Liking what I'm seeing here, very exciting! Anything we in the community can do to help you get a user/unit submitted insignia system in, let us know. I'd pay $10 to put my design into a review system for approval for use for the entire unit, for example.

Please let us know what we as a community can do to help get custom Insignia into the game (and custom paint jobs )

[Hayashi]

I think there's quite a bit of confusion here, so I'll attempt to clear things up. Correct me if I'm wrong on this Paul, but I doubt it... =P

1. There is a critical slot system. For example, the arm has 12 critical slots, of which 3 are taken by the actuators and the shoulder joint, leaving 9 free critical slots. If I recall Mechwarrior 2 Mercs correctly, the side torsos have 12 free critical slots each, the centre torso and legs have 2 each and the head has one free critical slot. This is without Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, XL engines etc.
2. There is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE hardpoint system. For example, the Swayback has at least 2 energy hardpoints in each arm, and at least 1 ballistics hardpoint in the right torso.

Let me stress that the hardpoint system is COMPLETELY SEPARATE from the critical slot system.

Now, we look at weapons. All weapons take up exactly one hardpoint each, but the number of critical slots it takes up varies. PPCs will take up 3 critical slots. If I recall correctly, Gauss rifles take up 8 critical slots, in their prototype form (the later forms can't enter the game yet due to the timeframe). Medium lasers take up 1 slot each, and large lasers take up 2 slots each.

So for example...

If your right arm has, say, 9 free critical slots, but possesses 4 energy hardpoints you can:

1. Mount 3 PPCs.
2. Mount 4 Large Lasers.
3. Mount 4 Medium Lasers.
+ Subject to weight limitations of course.

You can't mount a 4th PPC because even though you have enough beam hardpoints, you do not have enough free critical slots. You cannot mount beyond 4 medium lasers, or even add a small laser to an arm with 4 Large Lasers, because you've run out of beam hardpoints, even though you have critical slots left.

To complicate matters, if your 9 critical arm has 1 ballistic and 2 beam hardpoints you can mount:

1. 1 Prototype Gauss Rifle(8), 1 Medium Laser(1) (out of criticals to add more)
2. 1 PPC(3), 1 Large Laser(2) and an AC/5(4) (Out of critical slots to add more)
3. 2 PPC(3), an AC/2(1) and 2 heat sinks.

In other words, weapons are limited on loading on 'Mechs by three factors:

1. Weight. Exceed total weight allowable, you can't mount it.
2. Critical slots. No funny business on mounting 2 prototype Gauss rifles on the same arm.
3. Hardpoints. No mounting of 9 medium lasers on the same arm, unlike what was the case in MechWarrior II Mercs.

And weapons are limited on firing by 'Mechs by three factors:

1. Heat dissipation. - Load more heat sinks, or use less energy weapons to overcome.
2. Total ammunition. - Load more ammunition to overcome.
3. Recharge/reload time. - Load more weapons to overcome.

The confusion here is likely because MechWarrior 4 combined the weapon type and critical slots into a single "critical slot type" system. But MWO will have a system where weapon types are considered separately from critical slots. The MWO MechLab is NOT a MW4 MechLab.

**EDIT BELOW THIS LINE**

The current MechLab system deals with the following problems from previous games:

1. Boating

There are too many free criticals, and no restriction on how to allocate them other than firing restrictions and weight restrictions, in MW2-type MechLabs. Therefore, we had an issue with boating, where people could happily load an obscene number of medium lasers and heat sinks into the head, centre torso, legs and side torsos. Boating is not possible in this MechLab iteration because of the hardpoint limitation. So, if you could only mount 2 energy weapons in that arm, and had enough tonnage, you would rather mount two PPCs than 2 Medium lasers, from a firepower point of view, where if you had only critical slot limitations, many people would rather mount 6 Medium lasers instead.

2. Identical 'Mechs

Also, by allocating type hardpoints accordingly, it keeps 'Mechs differentiated. Nobody could use a Catapult as a Gausszilla in MWO because it only possesses Beam and Missile hardpoints. Without a weapon type limitation, the 'Mech with the greatest free tonnage of its tonnage class is The Best Mech of its class (since it can mount the greatest amount of armour/heat sinks/weapons/ammo), which would be annoying since we would see only a few 'Mechs in action. With this in, if you want to use missiles a lot, you have to use a Catapult, or Archer, or Jenner. It gives the 'Mechs character - indeed, a mix of weapons capabilities is in itself a character, for example in the case of Centurions, which can mount a little bit of every kind of weapon. This can prove to be tactically useful as well. For example, you will know that if you spot an enemy lance full of Catapults and one Commando, that if you don't kill the Commando quick, he'll probably NARC you and you end up demolished by a missile rain. And if you spot an Awesome, he'll only have beam weapons, so you should send your flamer squad after him to prevent him from ever daring to fire.

An example of this The Best Mech problem in previous games lies especially with the Timber Wolf, though this timeframe doesn't include its entry... yet. Now Urbie lovers have a bit of a spot in the sun... since there's likely few other Light mechs which can mount ballistics - most Lights have only beam and missile hardpoints.

3. OmniMechs

Omni hardpoints will give certain 'Mechs flexibility to mount weapons of any type in that slot, giving them a distinct tactical advantage separate from the advantage of them usually possessing more advanced technology by the way of engine/armour types. However, there's no need to necessarily use Omni hardpoints, if the loadout you have in mind is achievable by a 'Mech with the correct mix of hardpoints.

4. Equipment

You'll have a reason to mount advanced equipment over simply weapons, because you may run out of weapons hardpoints and still have free tonnage and critical slots. On 'Mechs like the Battlemaster and Raven, the devs may want to intentionally limit the number of hardpoints available so that they'll be used in the role they were meant to be used in, rather than being abused as combat heavy Mechs.

===

For its inception it is pure conjecture at this point, but I believe the devs will be looking at every single SARNA variant, and creating hardpoints such that 'Mechs will possess the minimum number of hardpoints necessary such that every single official variant can be created ingame. They may even set these variants as presets which players can review to get a feel of what the 'Mech was intended to do. MW4 had the problem of having too many typed criticals, allowing people to make MLAS boats out of Nova Cats, Sunders and projectile boats out of Daishis. By heavily restricting hardpoints, players will be forced to customise within a narrow acceptable margin that still allows room for creativity, but not so much that boating can be done, and not so much so that capable commanders can still guess at what a given enemy 'Mech will intend to do.

[SNobleJr]

The way I understand it:

Let's say we want to mount a weapon on an arm. Assuming lower arm and hand actuators are present, all 'Mechs will have eight open criticals in an arm when empty, but different 'Mechs (and variants) may have different amounts of hardpoints in addition to that.

To use a PPC as an example, it occupies three criticals and one energy hardpoint. So if we strip a PPC from an arm, we free up said crits and hardpoint. If we want to replace it with something else, we're not limited by how many crits it occupied, only by how many are available in the arm overall. So assuming there's a second open energy hardpoint available, it's possible to replace a PPC with two large lasers, even though those occupy one more crit overall (tonnage permitting, of course).

Also, there's theoretically nothing stopping the devs from leaving some additional free hardpoints on the default configs, such as an AWS-8Q having two energy hardpoints in its right arm, despite the default config using only one of them.

Again, this is how I understood the explanations. Devs, correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Dammit, ninja'd.

Edited by SNobleJr, 18 April 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Sprouticus]

MaddMaxx, on 18 April 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

If that indeed reads as written, then many will be seriously pissed off.

If you pull a PPC assuming that 3 Energy based crit slots would open up, then find that you cannot mount, say a LL (2 crits) and ML (1 crit) , but only one, or the other, the ML quickly becomes an obsolete selection.

Why would you ever take 1 ML over 1 LL when you have tonnage and crit(s) for HS's left over every time?

What would the deal be with the AC20 mounts? Pull the AC20, free up 10 crits and 14 Tons but have only one weapon slot FREE? OUCH! (even for me, one who hates "Boats" with a passion)

Or can you put 3 LL in a PPC slot? Sounds like only the # of weapons pulled, as many weapons can go back in.

The way I understand it is this:

Weapon mounts are 1 for 1 (if you remove a PPC you can replace it with a LL or ML, not boht)
In the initial post Paul implied that some sections may have 'extra' mounts. Perhaps the stock has 1 PPC but that section is designated with 2 Energy slots. Or it has 1 ML and an AC10, and the arm has perhaps 2 energy and 2 ballistic slots.


This kind of setup is VERY flexible. They can add or remove 'extra slots to allow for more or less boating/weapons as a form of game balance. It also prevents ML boats in particular.

As for your statement that you can see a reason to use an ML instead of a LL as a replacement for a PPC, then I think you are not thinking thing through

replace 1 PPC with 1 ML + several tons of armor, or +1 HS or perhaps equipment. Those free crit slots and tonnage are able to be used for anything.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Hayashi, on 18 April 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

I think there's quite a bit of confusion here, so I'll attempt to clear things up. Correct me if I'm wrong on this Paul, but I doubt it... =P
<snip>

Yeah, this makes sense. Side note: GR are in production as of 3049 (and likely several years before) - the prototypes were around in 3039, and a few years after.

[syngyne]

MaddMaxx, on 18 April 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

If that indeed reads as written, then many will be seriously pissed off.

If you pull a PPC assuming that 3 Energy based crit slots would open up, then find that you cannot mount, say a LL (2 crits) and ML (1 crit) , but only one, or the other, the ML quickly becomes an obsolete selection.

I think a lot of people keep thinking that the crits and the hardpoints are tied together, like there are specific crits that can take a certain weapon type, and I'm not certain that's the case. I'm reading it as they're completely separate things. Crits determine how much physical space you have in a location. Hardpoints determine the number of each type of weapon you can put in a location. The crits are not tied to weapon types, they can be filled with whatever. But each location on a 'Mech has a limit on number and type of weapon you can place regardless of the amount of empty space, and that's what the hardpoints determine.

The devs mentioned somewhere that while the hardpoints would be determined by the stock loadout on a variant, there may be more hardpoints available in addition to what the stock configuration requires. So, in your example, while the 'Mech may only have a PPC mounted in that specific location, there may actually be two energy weapon hardpoints there, one of which just isn't being used by the stock config.

[TimberJon]

I hope I'm not the first to get this...

Quote

Isnt this system a little rigid? If i got this right you can only downgrade weapons because you couldnt fit a bigger weapon into the hardpoints even if you reduced armor. –Rutok

[DAVID] Hardpoints will limit the number of weapons that can be placed in a location on the ’Mech. The number of slots those weapons can occupy is not predefined (outside of the maximum number of slots in the location). So let’s say that I’m allowed 2 energy weapons in my right arm. I currently have 2 Medium Lasers which occupy 1 slot each. I would still be allowed to put in 2 Large Lasers, which occupy 2 slots each.

This should be edited to clarify that the arm in question has a 4 slot maximum. Or it can be misconstrued as an arm with a 2 slot max that originally came fully equipped with two medium lasers.

[Sprouticus]

Regarding the post:

I like the concepts in general, but I would reiterate my opinions from some of the discussion threads

• Please limit how much you can change engine size 1 size up or down would be best IMO
  
• Please do not allow converting to/from XL engines.
  
• Please do not allow converting to/from endosteel
  
• Please make the change from std to ferro armor significant in cost.
  
• Please limit electronics to specific mechs/variants.

The reason I ask this is because by doing those 4 things you will help each variant matain its own identity. If the ONLY difference between 2 variants is the weapon mount points they become meaningless or close to it. By making the 'heart' of the mechs the same, each variant has lots of character, but can still be customized.

Engine & electronics are especially important IMO.

[Fiachdubh]

It's Wednesday?!

[Sprouticus]

TimberJon, on 18 April 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

I hope I'm not the first to get this...


This should be edited to clarify that the arm in question has a 4 slot maximum. Or it can be misconstrued as an arm with a 2 slot max that originally came fully equipped with two medium lasers.

In the example, it has 2 mountpoints (2 ML) taking up 2 crits. Replacing it with 2 LL means it still only uses 2 mountpoints, but 4 crits.

[Ansel]

TimberJon, on 18 April 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

I hope I'm not the first to get this...


This should be edited to clarify that the arm in question has a 4 slot maximum. Or it can be misconstrued as an arm with a 2 slot max that originally came fully equipped with two medium lasers.

It has a 2 slot maximum there can only be two energy based weapons in that location. The slots are not Criticals. Criticals are not slots.

[Thorn Hallis]

Thats interesting...and something that I might like. But I'll reserve my judgement 'til I can see it live.

[Garth Erlam]

Hayashi, on 18 April 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

I think there's quite a bit of confusion here, so I'll attempt to clear things up. Correct me if I'm wrong on this Paul, but I doubt it... =P

1. There is a critical slot system. For example, the arm has 12 critical slots, of which 3 are taken by the actuators and the shoulder joint, leaving 9 free critical slots. If I recall Mechwarrior 2 Mercs correctly, the side torsos have 12 free critical slots each, the centre torso and legs have 2 each and the head has one free critical slot. This is without Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, XL engines etc.
2. There is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE hardpoint system. For example, the Swayback has at least 2 energy hardpoints in each arm, and at least 1 ballistics hardpoint in the right torso.

Let me stress that the hardpoint system is COMPLETELY SEPARATE from the critical slot system.

Now, we look at weapons. All weapons take up exactly one hardpoint each, but the number of critical slots it takes up varies. PPCs will take up 3 critical slots. If I recall correctly, Gauss rifles take up 8 critical slots, in their prototype form (the later forms can't enter the game yet due to the timeframe). Medium lasers take up 1 slot each, and large lasers take up 2 slots each.

So for example...

If your right arm has, say, 9 free critical slots, but possesses 4 energy hardpoints you can:

1. Mount 3 PPCs.
2. Mount 4 Large Lasers.
3. Mount 4 Medium Lasers.
+ Subject to weight limitations of course.

You can't mount a 4th PPC because even though you have enough beam hardpoints, you do not have enough free critical slots. You cannot mount beyond 4 medium lasers, or even add a small laser to an arm with 4 Large Lasers, because you've run out of beam hardpoints, even though you have critical slots left.

To complicate matters, if your 9 critical arm has 1 ballistic and 2 beam hardpoints you can mount:

1. 1 Prototype Gauss Rifle(8), 1 Medium Laser(1) (out of criticals to add more)
2. 1 PPC(3), 1 Large Laser(2) and an AC/5(4) (Out of critical slots to add more)
3. 2 PPC(3), an AC/2(1) and 2 heat sinks.

In other words, weapons are limited on loading on 'Mechs by three factors:

1. Weight. Exceed total weight allowable, you can't mount it.
2. Critical slots. No funny business on mounting 2 prototype Gauss rifles on the same arm.
3. Hardpoints. No mounting of 9 medium lasers on the same arm, unlike what was the case in MechWarrior II Mercs.

And weapons are limited on firing by 'Mechs by three factors:

1. Heat dissipation. - Load more heat sinks, or use less energy weapons to overcome.
2. Total ammunition. - Load more ammunition to overcome.
3. Recharge/reload time. - Load more weapons to overcome.

The confusion here is likely because MechWarrior 4 combined the weapon type and critical slots into a single "critical slot type" system. But MWO will have a system where weapon types are considered separately from critical slots. The MWO MechLab is NOT a MW4 MechLab.

**EDIT BELOW THIS LINE**

The current MechLab system deals with the following problems from previous games:

1. Boating

There are too many free criticals, and no restriction on how to allocate them other than firing restrictions and weight restrictions, in MW2-type MechLabs. Therefore, we had an issue with boating, where people could happily load an obscene number of medium lasers and heat sinks into the head, centre torso, legs and side torsos. Boating is not possible in this MechLab iteration because of the hardpoint limitation. So, if you could only mount 2 energy weapons in that arm, and had enough tonnage, you would rather mount two PPCs than 2 Medium lasers, from a firepower point of view, where if you had only critical slot limitations, many people would rather mount 6 Medium lasers instead.

2. Identical 'Mechs

Also, by allocating type hardpoints accordingly, it keeps 'Mechs differentiated. Nobody could use a Catapult as a Gausszilla in MWO because it only possesses Beam and Missile hardpoints. Without a weapon type limitation, the 'Mech with the greatest free tonnage of its tonnage class is The Best Mech of its class (since it can mount the greatest amount of armour/heat sinks/weapons/ammo), which would be annoying since we would see only a few 'Mechs in action. With this in, if you want to use missiles a lot, you have to use a Catapult, or Archer, or Jenner. It gives the 'Mechs character - indeed, a mix of weapons capabilities is in itself a character, for example in the case of Centurions, which can mount a little bit of every kind of weapon. This can prove to be tactically useful as well. For example, you will know that if you spot an enemy lance full of Catapults and one Commando, that if you don't kill the Commando quick, he'll probably NARC you and you end up demolished by a missile rain. And if you spot an Awesome, he'll only have beam weapons, so you should send your flamer squad after him to prevent him from ever daring to fire.

An example of this The Best Mech problem in previous games lies especially with the Timber Wolf, though this timeframe doesn't include its entry... yet. Now Urbie lovers have a bit of a spot in the sun... since there's likely few other Light mechs which can mount ballistics - most Lights have only beam and missile hardpoints.

3. OmniMechs

Omni hardpoints will give certain 'Mechs flexibility to mount weapons of any type in that slot, giving them a distinct tactical advantage separate from the advantage of them usually possessing more advanced technology by the way of engine/armour types. However, there's no need to necessarily use Omni hardpoints, if the loadout you have in mind is achievable by a 'Mech with the correct mix of hardpoints.

4. Equipment

You'll have a reason to mount advanced equipment over simply weapons, because you may run out of weapons hardpoints and still have free tonnage and critical slots. On 'Mechs like the Battlemaster and Raven, the devs may want to intentionally limit the number of hardpoints available so that they'll be used in the role they were meant to be used in, rather than being abused as combat heavy Mechs.

===

For its inception it is pure conjecture at this point, but I believe the devs will be looking at every single SARNA variant, and creating hardpoints such that 'Mechs will possess the minimum number of hardpoints necessary such that every single official variant can be created ingame. They may even set these variants as presets which players can review to get a feel of what the 'Mech was intended to do. MW4 had the problem of having too many typed criticals, allowing people to make MLAS boats out of Nova Cats, Sunders and projectile boats out of Daishis. By heavily restricting hardpoints, players will be forced to customise within a narrow acceptable margin that still allows room for creativity, but not so much that boating can be done, and not so much so that capable commanders can still guess at what a given enemy 'Mech will intend to do.

This is essentially dead on.

[Adridos]

No PONY mechs. Three times Hip-hip-hooray!! to the devs!

[wwiiogre]

thank you Garth,

you wouldn't happen to have a sister/aunt female relative that is single? Er Friends and Family beta has nothing to do with the question. Just saying.

chris

[Lima Zulu]

I can't understand that: if hardpoints limit number of weapon (1 weapon = 1 hardpoint) - q/a #5, and if there is no hardpoits other than default weapons, what black magic helps to fit 2 medium lasers in place of one PPC (last one q/a)?!