84 replies to this topic

[Web Death]

After getting Advanced zoom, I thought "Woo! I can now get 4x Zoom and really get good sight on enemy mechs to snipe!" Then I saw it..




I don't know about you, but I honestly was expecting a much clearer image from the PiP.. Of course this has been talked about before. But I thought an actual screen shot would help show why some are saying that it's a "Rip off".

And although It is a nifty feature in some maps. (River city it isn't bad.) Others, like this one (Snow Forest), it can be difficult to use.

I do appologize if I'm just beating a dead horse/posting old information. But this is something I'm hoping the Development staff eventually finds a way to tweek and improve.

[JewBoy]

Just wondering but how much more zoom is there compared to the zoom everyone gets? If you use the normal zoom and then activate this, does it multiply your normal zoom level by 4x, or is it just slightly greater than normal zoom? You'd think in the mean time they could just fix it by increasing the level of normal zoom. Its not like PiP is that much of a buff.

Edited by JewBoy, 08 November 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[Web Death]

It's basically 4x magnification of your normal vision. I'm sorry if I didn't get a good Screen shot with a mech in it. But I was also worried about my repair bills while trying to get shot.

[Coolwhoami]

It's a limitation of the engine, as currently the only way to have that sort of seperated zoom is to have a seperate render of the battlefield, which is incredible inefficient. I imagine the developers will have to change how the module operates to make it work with cryengine.

[Ramseti]

It's done that way so the engine doesn't have to render everything a 2nd time, which would cause framerate issues.

[shabowie]

4x is an incredibly low magnification level.

Most hunting rifles have optics more powerful than that. For a mech to have that is just bizarre, totally implausible.

At 700 meters you should be able to see the other mechwarrior in the cockpit flipping you the bird through 20 or 30x magnification.

I bought the more rapid target info module. That and the base cap one seem worth it to me.

Edited by shabowie, 08 November 2012 - 02:35 AM.

[JewBoy]

shabowie, on 08 November 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

4x is an incredibly low magnification level.

Most hunting rifles have optics more powerful than that. For a mech to have that is just bizarre, totally implausible.

To be fair, most rifles have effective ranges further than most MWO weapons. My Kel-Tec RFB with a 18" barrel can do 600 meters easy. Palma competitors go out to 1000 yards with .308 and iron sights. Yet machine guns are limited to 200 meters. 20mm Vulcan has an effective range of 5000 meters, yet AC/2s (20mm) max out at 2000 meters. Dont get me started on missles, Sidewinders dont get a lock untill 1000 meters, yet LRMs are limited to 1000 meters. Also most American ground to ground missles weigh over 2000 pounds, whereas a LRM weighs 11 pounds. When you factor in the airframe, guideance and propulsion systems, the war head cant be bigger than a pound or two. We are essentially shooting glorified Estes model rockets at each other. Hell, even in the 1950s we have nuclear warheads on artillery, so why can't I get a nuke round for a AC/20? It seems that 1000 years in the future, weapons have taken a giant step back.

Edited by JewBoy, 08 November 2012 - 02:39 AM.

[shabowie]

Yeah point taken, but still.

[xDark]

Wow, that PIP window is huge too. I wish it were a little bit smaller so there'd be a reason to use it other than the magnification bonus. Maybe somewhere in between this and MW4's PIP size would be nice.

[twibs]

If this would be real warfare, you would never even see the enemy since you them would be shooting 20kms away from each other.

This is game, have fun.

[Cragger]

shabowie, on 08 November 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

4x is an incredibly low magnification level.

Most hunting rifles have optics more powerful than that. For a mech to have that is just bizarre, totally implausible.

At 700 meters you should be able to see the other mechwarrior in the cockpit flipping you the bird through 20 or 30x magnification.

I bought the more rapid target info module. That and the base cap one seem worth it to me.

Horrible, horrible analogy. In real life a optical magnification is collecting an infinite number of photons in a real time universe where physics just 'happen'. Where this is a digital rendition of finite points of data. Take a magnifying glass to your computer monitor, a picture or anything where man has replicated an image with finite points and you'll see the problem.

CryEngine 3 does not support dual renders as the only way to do a PIP is running a second render of the scene at a larger scale or closer perspective, which means you are rendering two scenes at the same time. They couldn't even put a rear view mirror on your mech as that is the same thing. So to bypass this they do the only thing they can which is scale up the render which being a fixed resolution gets blurry.

While I think the costs of the modules are rather silly the advanced zoom is an improvement as while the image is blurred you can more easily hit your target while retaining some peripherial vision.

Edited by Cragger, 08 November 2012 - 02:47 AM.

[JewBoy]

Cragger, on 08 November 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

Horrible, horrible analogy. In real life a optical magnification is collecting an infinite number of photons in a real time universe where physics just 'happen'. Where this is a digital rendition of finite points of data. Take a magnifying glass to your computer monitor, a picture or anything where man has replicated an image with finite points and you'll see the problem.

To be fair, your analogy is even worse. Otherwise why can I press my middle mouse button for 2x and 3x (or whatever factors they are) optical zoom? Even my cheap camcorder has 10x or 12x optical zoom. 1000 years in the future, we have bipedal tanks, space travel and all sorts of other wonders but aparently lost basic optics technology.

Edited by JewBoy, 08 November 2012 - 02:55 AM.

[Hauser]

Stop trying to apply logic to a re-enactment of what people in the 80ties thought would be the future!

That said, I don't mind the pixels. It makes them bigger which makes it easier to aim. And I kinda like the feeling it gives. It is imperfect technology in a sci-fi dark age. The peripheral vision is also nice.

Edited by Hauser, 08 November 2012 - 03:08 AM.

[Rainlyte]

The advanced zoom is only slightly useful and very situational in its current state. It really, really needs some love. Although I'm actually inclined to disagree with op's example, I think snow forest is one of the few maps that has very clean air and is easy to see in. In fact, that picture posted is about as crisp as that PIP zoom gets. However, on maps that are hazy (which, annoyingly, is most of them), the PIP is almost always useless and the double zoom is much better.

Apropos, can we get the maps less hazy? Or at least can future maps be more clear? Most maps (especially the icy one) feels like wading through banks of fog. This is very frustrating/not fun in general, but it's also a pretty serious detriment to direct-fire artillery, and it shows by the lack of people using such weapons. It's a shame because it's one of the trickier combat forms relative to indirect artillery and brawling. It's already very difficult given the enormous amounts of cover everywhere, few vantage points that don't leave you completely vulnerable, and the fact that people rarely expose themselves for more than a second or two if they know what they're doing - we don't need haze to add insult to injury.

The simplest solution to the advanced zoom crytek engine issue would be to skip the whole PIP thing and just let people zoom in a third step using the normal zoom key.

Edited by Zo San, 08 November 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[Soulscour]

JewBoy, on 08 November 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

To be fair, most rifles have effective ranges further than most MWO weapons. My Kel-Tec RFB with a 18" barrel can do 600 meters easy. Palma competitors go out to 1000 yards with .308 and iron sights. Yet machine guns are limited to 200 meters. 20mm Vulcan has an effective range of 5000 meters, yet AC/2s (20mm) max out at 2000 meters. Dont get me started on missles, Sidewinders dont get a lock untill 1000 meters, yet LRMs are limited to 1000 meters. Also most American ground to ground missles weigh over 2000 pounds, whereas a LRM weighs 11 pounds. When you factor in the airframe, guideance and propulsion systems, the war head cant be bigger than a pound or two. We are essentially shooting glorified Estes model rockets at each other. Hell, even in the 1950s we have nuclear warheads on artillery, so why can't I get a nuke round for a AC/20? It seems that 1000 years in the future, weapons have taken a giant step back.

They're trying to make a fun game . In real life, theres no such thing as weapon balance.

[Obadiah333]

Every time I use it, I expect to see Bigfoot in there, or the Loch Ness Monster.

[Vermaxx]

Well this answers the question I have been asking match after match:

"Did they fix the zoom module, or is it still blurry?"

Great, the only thing I was willing to drop that much XP on, is still kind of 'eh.' Well, guess I continue to provide valuable feedback by not buying any of the three.

I was afraid of this. If there are not a large selection of REALLY GOOD MODULES, there is absolutely no incentive for people to get up to Master tier. By the way, did they take out the need to grind a second mech for Master?

[JewBoy]

Soulscour, on 08 November 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

In real life, theres no such thing as weapon balance.

Hey, my RFB being a bullpup and all is perfectly balanced.

Vermaxx, on 08 November 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

By the way, did they take out the need to grind a second mech for Master?

You need 3 mechs at elite level to get master perks.

Edited by JewBoy, 08 November 2012 - 05:40 AM.

[Comassion]

Coolwhoami, on 08 November 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

It's a limitation of the engine, as currently the only way to have that sort of seperated zoom is to have a seperate render of the battlefield, which is incredible inefficient. I imagine the developers will have to change how the module operates to make it work with cryengine.

I'll absolutely grant that there's a serious problem trying to render the battlefield twice.

Solution 1: Pixellate the main outside screen instead and render the zoomed portion at normal detail.

Solution 2: Drop the Picture-in-picture thing and just let people zoom in another level beyond what they can do now.

[Vermaxx]

JewBoy, on 08 November 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

You need 3 mechs at elite level to get master perks.

You own one of those guns? I just saw it in a gun magazine, didn't think they were selling yet.

I know you need three VARIANTS to get to master. Do you need three variants of TWO DIFFERENT MECHS? That was the way in closed beta, which is why I never bothered. Because I run mediums and hate the Centurion.