791 replies to this topic

[Clan Warrior]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I think you misunderstood me as well. I'm not saying the should be the kings of the battlefield, but as they are now, they dont even soften up the lightest of mechs.

Give the Devs a chance, this isn't the end of tweaking, nerfing, changing, it is only the beginning !

[Noth]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Don't forget about AMS. They kinda pop a bunch of missiles.before they hit. If the atlas happens to have 2x AMS the atlas just shrugs the damage and walks across the field in plain view watching fireworks.

You don't say... An Atlas with 2 AMS hard counters LRMs. IF that Atlas had reflective armor I'd expect it to walk right across the field despite getting pounded by lasers.

[Kaziganthi]

Squigles, on 10 November 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Even if only 25% of your missiles hit that atlas, there'd not be a shred of armor left on it's front side, and that's if you peeled the head and legs while you were at it. If you're failing to split an atlas open with 50 LRM racks and 8 tons of ammo....you're doing it wrong.

Nope, I had the mech in my LOS at all times, thats how impotentt they are now the Atlas didnt even try for cover. Just walk straight up to me as I was firing away while i was reversing, him exhanging lrm 20's for my Twin Lrm15's and 10's. Zoom mode showed missiles hitting, Target damage screen showed barley anything at all. By the time he got close to use the ac20 and med lasers, i'd gone through over 800 rounds and still he had external armour. By the time I was dead, 1k rounds later, I'd finally stripped armour to expose internals but too late.

Edit: Score at end showed 200-300 damage. can't remember exact number but I know I haven't broken over 300 damage since the hotfix even after emptying my 1440 rounds of ammo.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Dren Nas]

Kaijin, on 10 November 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Don't think anyone's asking for an "I win" weapon. Catapult drivers just want a reason to carry around a weapon system that weighs 14 tons + 6 tons for ammo.

Exactly.

crabcakes66, on 10 November 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Being countered by teamwork and being underpowered are not the same thing.

But... LRMs REQUIRE, LET ME REPEAT, LRMs REQUIRE you to have decent teamwork to be have a hope of being effective. Granted, I'll always say that good teamwork should always be the deciding factor for games like MWO, but to make one stratey ineffective to the point where people are turning LRM mechs into gaussapults or SRM Cats something is wrong...

Noth, on 10 November 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

You don't say... An Atlas with 2 AMS hard counters LRMs. IF that Atlas had reflective armor I'd expect it to walk right across the field despite getting pounded by lasers.

Well, it'll take damage from lasers of course, but LRMs don't really bother it.

[KharnZor]

Relkathi, on 10 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

You have obviously never been in the military. As currently one of the most powerful weapons in the military is the M109A6 Paladin, which allows Soldiers to rain metal death from 36,000meters away. If weapons in 3049 can't match that, then why other using them at all.

ATM, LRMs are useless, they aren't a threat to any mech, let alone an Atlas.

LRMs should be 1 point of damage per every missile that hits. If you are dumb enough not to seek cover, then you deserve to die.

heh i'm guessing you have never been in the military otherwise you'd know that support weapons are just that, support weapons. LRM's are far from useless, i commonly get around 800 to 1k damage per match and a few kills so obviously someone is doing something very wrong or they need to rethink the way they play.

[Mavairo]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Nope, I had the mech in my LOS at all times, thats how impotentt they are now the Atlas didnt even try for cover. Just walk straight up to me as I was firing away while i was reversing, him exhanging lrm 20's for my Twin Lrm15's and 10's. Zoom mode showed missiles hitting, Target damage screen showed barley anything at all. By the time he got close to use the ac20 and med lasers, i'd gone through over 800 rounds and still he had external armour. By the time I was dead, 1k rounds later, I'd finally stripped armour to expose internals but too late.

Edit: Score at end showed 200-300 damage. can't remember exact number but I know I haven't broken over 300 damage since the hotfix even after emptying my 1440 rounds of ammo.

I want to see fraps of this. because I have no problems at all in my C4 burning people down with 2 LRM 15s. Including atlases. when they get to about 250 to 350 meters, I start laying into them with my pair of streak 2s and MPLs and then start falling back so I can resume longer range indirect fire if possible.

I only have about 700 rounds I believe in my lrm 15s (and yes I commonly burn through ALL of my lrm ammo. But no it's not really a problem given my other armament) and I've racked up on average anywhere from 250, to 500 damage with my C4. Over half of which is due to the lrm fire. To say nothing of all the bonus, Component Destroyed messages I get and the bonus cash from doing so.

And if you don't believe me I'm willing to go do some fraps footage anyway. Because I like making pvp videos for the games I play.

Edited by Mavairo, 10 November 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[Kurayami]

eh that is why devs should do things their own way without listening to all QQ propositions.

instead of making it fearsome but hard to use, unforgiving and expensive weapon, relaying on teamwork while adding adequate countermeasures they just decided to please all of QQ, completely screwing LRMs yet again just to another extent - instead of nearly op they are now nearly useless (they do not fulfill their role - most mechs can now ignore them). but i bet there are still people who think that they are still OP and should be nerfed again because it is so unfair that something is able to scratch that shiney ultrapowerfull fatlas without being in the range of his alpha.

[Kaziganthi]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

But... LRMs REQUIRE, LET ME REPEAT, LRMs REQUIRE you to have decent teamwork to be have a hope of being effective. Granted, I'll always say that good teamwork should always be the deciding factor for games like MWO, but to make one stratey ineffective to the point where people are turning LRM mechs into gaussapults or SRM Cats something is wrong...

Yes, but in a one on one fight at ranged an stock Cat should be able to hold its own for a least 1 minute until help arrived. Now they have the guts kicked out of it because it's 2 biggest weapons are next to useless.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Kaijin]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Don't forget about AMS. They kinda pop a bunch of missiles.before they hit. If the atlas happens to have 2x AMS the atlas just shrugs the damage and walks across the field in plain view watching fireworks.

I think that's why that Atlas variant has 2X AMS.

I've got no problem with AMS, unless it's been buffed. Could be AMS was buffed in addition to LRMs being nerfed? LRMs now feel like they did when they were nerfed to a point in CB where nobody was using them.

[Kaziganthi]

Mavairo, on 10 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I want to see fraps of this. because I have no problems at all in my C4 burning people down with 2 LRM 15s. Including atlases. when they get to about 250 to 350 meters, I start laying into them with my pair of streak 2s and MPLs and then start falling back so I can resume longer range indirect fire if possible.

I only have about 700 rounds I believe in my lrm 15s (and yes I commonly burn through ALL of my lrm ammo. But no it's not really a problem given my other armament) and I've racked up on average anywhere from 250, to 500 damage with my C4. Over half of which is due to the lrm fire. To say nothing of all the bonus, Component Destroyed messages I get and the bonus cash from doing so.

If I can, I'll post screenshots of a match where I run out of ammo and the score at the end.

Edit: Again, we're not asking for an I win button. Before the intoduction of Artemis I would be lucky to get 1-2 kill a match and with the ability of firing an alpha of 50 lrms. I would however get 5-6 assists in a winning match as I was able to provide..wait for it..covering fire. One match I actuall got 4 kills, but they were lights and 2 aplha strikes can easily kill them. Now, I pump 3-4 aplhas into a jenner or commado, and they shrug it off like they were an atlas.

Edit part 2: Try not using your close in weaponry aka streaks..and see how much damage you rack up.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 01:16 PM.

[Dren Nas]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Nope, I had the mech in my LOS at all times, thats how impotentt they are now the Atlas didnt even try for cover. Just walk straight up to me as I was firing away while i was reversing, him exhanging lrm 20's for my Twin Lrm15's and 10's. Zoom mode showed missiles hitting, Target damage screen showed barley anything at all. By the time he got close to use the ac20 and med lasers, i'd gone through over 800 rounds and still he had external armour. By the time I was dead, 1k rounds later, I'd finally stripped armour to expose internals but too late.

Edit: Score at end showed 200-300 damage. can't remember exact number but I know I haven't broken over 300 damage since the hotfix even after emptying my 1440 rounds of ammo.

This is what i keep seeing. I'm not saying let me pop an atlas in 2 or 3 volleys, but it should be dead when I use ALL my ammo on it. That wouldn't be OP. I'll get 1 kill then i get to go short range and start pewpewing with med lasers before i die a horrible fiery death..

[deputydog]

LRMS are now like LBX. The dont kill unles the target is already hurting or has a few holes in it. Then they hurt alot.
They are good for general sandblasting and to get at stuff that is just over that hill but are not the end all be all weapon they were.

I think they will need a little more tweaking but they are close to what they should be. The game is a lot more fun now.
I think a small .1 bump in damage and a reduction in artemis prices would be close to perfect. Maybe a bump in dmg for artemis controlled ones especially since ecm will negate the artemis advantage...

[Dren Nas]

Kaijin, on 10 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

I think that's why that Atlas variant has 2X AMS.

I've got no problem with AMS, unless it's been buffed. Could be AMS was buffed in addition to LRMs being nerfed? LRMs now feel like they did when they were nerfed to a point in CB where nobody was using them.

TBH, until they fix LRMs i might just stick to my Gaussapult... it's op but it's a long range weapon that does deal damage.

[Shaddock]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I'm going to have a lot of replies to this topic over the next few minutes as I catch up, so please bear with me.

Nurfing the AMS might be the fix LRMs need. I'm not sure though, but i've been wondering the same thing. The only thing is that LRMs still aren't doing as much damage to mechs that appear to not have AMS on them. Not 100% sure though. I'll have to keep a closer eye on it next time i'm in my LRM mech.

I disagree, AMS if anything felt underwelming from the start. I felt they need a slight buff since early Open beta, but that is of course assuming LRMs go back to the original Open Beta state as well.

Edited by Shaddock, 10 November 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[AkalaOubli]

The only thing that I really see as an issue for missile based weapons is the ammo cost. I can take a catapult C1 and pretty much be sure I pop some poor soul who isn't hugging buildings for a living. Yet I will lose all the cash form the round because you fire 30 at once.

[Kaziganthi]

deputydog, on 10 November 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

LRMS are now like LBX. The dont kill unles the target is already hurting or has a few holes in it. Then they hurt alot.
They are good for general sandblasting and to get at stuff that is just over that hill but are not the end all be all weapon they were.

I think they will need a little more tweaking but they are close to what they should be. The game is a lot more fun now.
I think a small .1 bump in damage and a reduction in artemis prices would be close to perfect. Maybe a bump in dmg for artemis controlled ones especially since ecm will negate the artemis advantage...

The problem is this. There was nothing majorly wrong with LRMs before the introduction of artmeis. You didn't see whole teams using LRMs, there was a lot of variety and battles weren't to bad. The introduction of artmeis changed a lot for lrms. But that would be like if you only had the use of PPC's..no ERPPC's no Guass. Then one day they started manufacture and introduced the new tech.

Artmeis was designed to help improve the amount of missiles that hits a mech, just like an ER PPC was designed to do the same damage as a PPC but at longer ranges.

I'm starting to wonder how the balancing is going to work out if/when they introduce clan tech which has at least a 20-40% increase in damage, and electronics such as the targeting computer.

[Odins Fist]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

At random times throughout the beta, I would pick a mech and run out in the open, be spotted, and diesoon afterward to the sky falling on top of my head. At others, I would be the one launching explosive death. I learned that to get away from LRMs you use cover and even powerdown randomly to break targeting locks.

Today, I can sit in my catapult and drop hell on an atlas trudging out in the open with my entire 700+ missiles and not even phase him.

It's quite disheartening to the point that I've even taken all LRMs off my Catapults and replaced them with SRMs or SRM Streaks.... or even removed missiles completely replaced with lasers.. or even dual Gauss (lolgausscat).

My point is that since the LRM nurf, there's really no reason to equip them when other long range weapons deal so much more damage. Oh, and before you say something along the lines of "QQmoar" or "That's all he plays", I have an atlas and yen lo wang that I play quite often.

TL;DR: LRMs have been nurfed too hard.

.
No they haven't been nerfed too much....
I see more kills spread out amongst a team now, and have seen more "good game", and "WOW, what a match", with results closer, and actual enjoyment expressed from both "Vets/Founders" and "NEWCOMERS" in MWO (game chat from both teams) than I have seen in a long time since closed beta.. This is a good thing...
.
LRMs are a "SUPPORT" weapon, and they are now perfectly (EDIT: maybe not perfectly) tuned into that role... Now it takes (3) missiles boats to assist the team, and "NOT" 2 missile boats to dominate a match... And don't try to sell me anything different, I ran with a friend, just (2) of us to test this theory, and we were competing to see who got to 1000+ damage (FIRST), and who got the most kills before the "HOTFIX", and we consistantly did more than half, to half the kills on our team testing LRMs out right before the "HOTFIX", and the results/numbers do not lie..
.
The verdict is in, and actual shoot-outs between brawler Mechs are happening again, the "VETS" and the "NEWCOMERS" to MWO are having a great time, and last night I saw more praise for MWO during matches than I have seen since closed Beta started... PGI will have it figured out, and as the game stands right now, I haven't seen any "I'M LEAVING" posts from "VETS" or "NEWCOMERS" for OVER 48 hours, and that my friends is a record..!!!
.
But I think my response could best be summed up by Van Halen

Edited by Odins Fist, 10 November 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Dren Nas]

Shaddock, on 10 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

I disagree, AMS if anything felt underwelming from the start. I felt they need a slight buf early Open beta

Are you saying they need to "fix" them by making the AMS not shoot through walls and the like, or do you mean that AMS should shoot down more missiles?

[Dorque]

Dr Killinger, on 10 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Thing is, there are few boat configurations that can kill an Atlas with impunity, much less so from 1km away. Before the hotfix, an Atlas in the open was dead. Afterwards, it isn't, but this isn't some strange pheonmena that defies logic. An Atlas is tough.

LRMs are still dangerous, but they are now as they should be, a support weapon. They suppress enemies, keep them in cover, and can turn the tide of a battle. LRM support turns a sure defeat into a sure victory. This is very valuable, but difficult to coordinate without great teamwork and focussing targets. This is great, because no LRM boat should be able to solo the toughest mech in the Inner Sphere.

I was going to say something like this but I really can't put it better.

I'll add my own potentially-rude commentary though: if you can't understand the concept of playing a support role then this is not the game for you.

[Kaziganthi]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Are you saying they need to "fix" them by making the AMS not shoot through walls and the like, or do you mean that AMS should shoot down more missiles?

Well there is that, how can an AMS shoot through the walls of the Ice cave in frozen city, when my lrms pound on the outside.