791 replies to this topic

[Shaddock]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Are you saying they need to "fix" them by making the AMS not shoot through walls and the like, or do you mean that AMS should shoot down more missiles?

Both, slightly kill more missiles, but also conserve ammo by not shooting through walls or by defending mechs that are already dead etc.

[Dorque]

On a side note no matter what you're piloting you should have multiple weapon systems with a few notable exceptions that require you taking a specific role and being well-supported in that role. BattleTech has always been about combined arms whatever some min/maxers would like you to believe.

[Kaziganthi]

Dorque, on 10 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

I was going to say something like this but I really can't put it better.

I'll add my own potentially-rude commentary though: if you can't understand the concept of playing a support role then this is not the game for you.

I know how to play a support role. A few years as a gunner in an artillery regiment taught me how to pop up, fire some volleyss and pop down. But I also know that if I'm going toe to toe with a mech a 1km range and I have 250% more longe range fire power than he does, yet he has 150% more armour than me, then I sould be at least be able to strip most of that off before they get close enough to start doing serious damage to me.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Shaddock]

Odins Fist, on 10 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

LRMs are a "SUPPORT" weapon, and they are now perfectly (EDIT: maybe not perfectly) tuned into that role... Now it takes (3) missiles boats to assist the team, and "NOT" 2 missile boats to dominate a match... And don't try to sell me anything different, I ran with a friend, just (2) of us to test this theory, and we were competing to see who got to 1000+ damage (FIRST), and who got the most kills before the "HOTFIX", and we consistantly did more than half, to half the kills on our team testing LRMs out right before the "HOTFIX", and the results/numbers do not lie..

So your saying you think it should take 3 x LRM boats to only be able to assist a brawler in taking down another mech? I.E. you want 3 whole mechs that play different than you to combined be weaker than you?

[Wolven]

It's amazing how many people got used to the totally unbelievably overpowered LRMs in short order.

Let me put it bluntly: NO WEAPON that fits on a HEAVY MECH should be able to drop an ATLAS in two to three salvos. No weapon. None. ATLAS IS A FRIGGIN MONSTER!

It's supposed to wade through that support fire, get reduced by LRMs and still be able to take the fight to lesser assault-class mechs and win. And then either force the LRM boats to withdraw (impossible now, I know, but hey...) or to destroy them in short order.

That is an Atlas. It's the M1A3 Abrams of Mech warfare. Taking it down requires something other then 'scout tag, lock, press firing button on 2xLRM20 three times'.

Same goes with every other heavier mech out there. LRMs aren't kill-shot weapons. They are sandblasters that open up chinks in the armor of their targets. AC10-20's, Gauss guns, PPCs and Large Lasers are kill-shot weapons. Mediums as well for meds and lights, and a good secondary battery on heavies.

Tl;dr: LRMs working as intended, finally!

[Kurayami]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

...

em.. space magic? actually ams is bugged as hell. for instance AMS often wont target missile that have a solid lock on teammate (which is stupid) but will gladly spray ammo on any and all passing by non locked missiles (which is even stupider since they will no hit a thing). it will also galdly spray ammo on a wall etc if some kind of missile (srm\ssrm\lrm) passing by near it. and that is not to mention that AMs sometimes adds itself to random firing group (exact bug - if you hold down fire group button while ams intercepting missiles it wont stop to randomly spraying ammo until said key pressed)

also 2x ams on the same mech intercepting twice as fast, but 2 ams on different mechs will intercept just slightly better than 1.

[Dekker Dueheart]

Shalune, on 10 November 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

A target in the open will take far more damage from other weapons, yes. For suppression I meant targets in cover. In the open though you still have the advantage of being able to shoot at a target without worrying about return fire.

Even so, I had a game yesterday where we had to charge a hill of LRMs (rest of the team was occupied elsewhere) over open ground on caustic. The damage we took on the way in wasn't negligible by a long shot.

Wait you (alone) charged a hill of LRMs (multiple) though open ground, and made it? a HILL of ANYTHING ELSE that you charged at would have cut you down, without worrying about you getting inside 180m.

if it was ONE LRM boat, sure i have no problem with you making it, though you should be torn up. But when multiple LRMs cant kill one target, in the open, coming right at them, there is a problem.

[Dorque]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

I know how to play a support role. A few years as a gunner in an artillery regiment taught me how to pop up, fire some volleyss and pop down. But I also know that if I'm going toe to toe with a mech a 1km range and I have 250% more longe range fire power than he does, yet he has 150% more armour than me, then I sould be at least be able to strip most of that off before they get close enough to start doing serious damage to me.

I get what you're saying but as a brawler I get great support from the LRM boats most of the time so maybe I'm just not seeing what you are.

[RG Notch]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

TBH, until they fix LRMs i might just stick to my Gaussapult... it's op but it's a long range weapon that does deal damage.

So until they make LRMS OP again you will use something else OP in the mean time. Check.

[Dekker Dueheart]

Wolven, on 10 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Let me put it bluntly: NO WEAPON that fits on a HEAVY MECH should be able to drop an ATLAS in two to three salvos. No weapon. None. ATLAS IS A FRIGGIN MONSTER!

" If a atlas can only be stopped by a atlas, then all that will be played are atlas's " - Me just now

[Dren Nas]

Wolven, on 10 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

It's amazing how many people got used to the totally unbelievably overpowered LRMs in short order.

Let me put it bluntly: NO WEAPON that fits on a HEAVY MECH should be able to drop an ATLAS in two to three salvos. No weapon. None. ATLAS IS A FRIGGIN MONSTER!

It's supposed to wade through that support fire, get reduced by LRMs and still be able to take the fight to lesser assault-class mechs and win. And then either force the LRM boats to withdraw (impossible now, I know, but hey...) or to destroy them in short order.

That is an Atlas. It's the M1A3 Abrams of Mech warfare. Taking it down requires something other then 'scout tag, lock, press firing button on 2xLRM20 three times'.

Same goes with every other heavier mech out there. LRMs aren't kill-shot weapons. They are sandblasters that open up chinks in the armor of their targets. AC10-20's, Gauss guns, PPCs and Large Lasers are kill-shot weapons. Mediums as well for meds and lights, and a good secondary battery on heavies.

Tl;dr: LRMs working as intended, finally!

LET ME REPEAT BECAUSE SOMEONE DID NOT FEEL AS THOUGH IT WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO READ THROUGH THIS THREAD BEFORE POSTING.

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

lol. I agree. If we get there LRMs will absolutely destroy people, but again, I'm not asking to take an atlas down with 3 volleys of missiles. I want him to be able to make him regret popping out in the open and walking across the map by using LRMs that are balanced damage balanced in regards to similar weapons slot/tonnage

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Again, lets keep referencing a 48 hour window where LRMs were broken, and let us continue using that for our examples during this discussion.

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Yes, lets use the one day when PGI screwed up and bugged LRMs to do way too much damage as what I'm calling for.

I want their damage output in line with othe weapons with similar slots/tonnage needs, right now they do not compete with them.

[Kaziganthi]

Wolven, on 10 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

It's amazing how many people got used to the totally unbelievably overpowered LRMs in short order.

Let me put it bluntly: NO WEAPON that fits on a HEAVY MECH should be able to drop an ATLAS in two to three salvos. No weapon. None. ATLAS IS A FRIGGIN MONSTER!

It's supposed to wade through that support fire, get reduced by LRMs and still be able to take the fight to lesser assault-class mechs and win. And then either force the LRM boats to withdraw (impossible now, I know, but hey...) or to destroy them in short order.

That is an Atlas. It's the M1A3 Abrams of Mech warfare. Taking it down requires something other then 'scout tag, lock, press firing button on 2xLRM20 three times'.

Same goes with every other heavier mech out there. LRMs aren't kill-shot weapons. They are sandblasters that open up chinks in the armor of their targets. AC10-20's, Gauss guns, PPCs and Large Lasers are kill-shot weapons. Mediums as well for meds and lights, and a good secondary battery on heavies.

Tl;dr: LRMs working as intended, finally!

Then how can a hunchback with 9 smalls do the same thing. Obviously their overpowered as well

TLDR : nerf laserboats

Edit : Also that is what the guass was designed for. Also you forget the AC20 can take down an Atlas in 3 shots, so we going to nerf those 2 weapons...oh wait.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Dren Nas]

RG Notch, on 10 November 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

So until they make LRMS OP again you will use something else OP in the mean time. Check.

Oh, please. I said make LRMs competative not op plenty of times in this thread. Please read.

Edited by Dren Nas, 10 November 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[RG Notch]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Oh, please. I said make LRMs competative not op plenty of times in this thread. Please read.

Yet your response to the reduction of LRMS from OP is to find another weapon you admit is OP? Please, like people are going to say they want a weapon to be OP. Of course they say they just want it to be useful which apparently means the same thing. Stop exaggerating who useful LRMS are and maybe people might think you are interested in balance instead of simply getting your easy button back.

[Vernius Ix]

Anyone who is trying to make the argument that LRM Boats take skill to play is fail! Scouts take skill to pilot, you know those guys that keep targets targeted so you can rain on them? The pilot of the actual LRM Boat take zero skill. Period, the end, move along nothing to see here.

[GODzillaGSPB]

The ockpit-shale must come back. LRMs should harm & disturb. Like supressing fire.

[WeekendWarrior]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Ok I would accept that, but in the situation above, the missile damge is allocated in groups of 5, not splash as they are in MWO. So even though the Atlas above has an LRM its at a slight disadvantage in long range against the twin lrm 15s of a Cat at longe range even with its weight, as its completment weaponry is all close range. By that time its softened up enough for the cats 4 medium lasers to start to chew into internals.. Also dont forget the cat can move slightly faster and has jump capability so its a lot more manoeuvrable than the atlas.

Uhm, thats pretty much what i said.
And if you might explain to me the difference between the TTs 5 point clusters and your "splash damage", please?

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Lrms are able to deliver a minefield in Tier 3 rules, they can also be fired using Indirect fire. Thats artillery.

LRMs have a range of 21 hexes.
630 meters.
SIXHUNDREDANDTHIRTY.
LRMs are "introductionary tech", or Lvl1 for the oldschoolers.
Artillery isn't. Artillery even has its own rules sections.
LRMs are as much artillery as an orbital strike is.

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Drop the armour back to it's original state of half what you have now, and I'll take 1dmg per missile.

Uhm, you realize that would effectively double the power of every other weapon?

[nuttycide]

Wow lots of angry people about the nerf to LRMs. Which imo the nerf was a good thing. Instead of seeing everyone and their grandma in lrm boats in a match, you now get to see a balanced team. One that can (hopefully) handle any siturations that comes at them. Also I use a LRM boat and even I was complaining how powerful LRMs were. So to assume that everybody who used LRMs want that huge damage back, would be a wrong assumption. Plus I like being in a support role anyway. I don't care if i get kills, since in the role I'm in, it's all about the damage and our teammates staying alive.

A good LRM boater knows when to fire his missiles and when not to. I usually carry 1080 missiles, and I usually have some left at the end of the match. And I still do decent damage. It's all about knowing the right timing and where they are. Thats the big thing a LRM boater has to know. Not firing tons of missiles at a target that was locked for 2 seconds and whining about the team not keeping them locked.

[Dorque]

nuttycide, on 10 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Wow lots of angry people about the nerf to LRMs. Which imo the nerf was a good thing. Instead of seeing everyone and their grandma in lrm boats in a match, you now get to see a balanced team. One that can (hopefully) handle any siturations that comes at them. Also I use a LRM boat and even I was complaining how powerful LRMs were. So to assume that everybody who used LRMs want that huge damage back, would be a wrong assumption. Plus I like being in a support role anyway. I don't care if i get kills, since in the role I'm in, it's all about the damage and our teammates staying alive.

A good LRM boater knows when to fire his missiles and when not to. I usually carry 1080 missiles, and I usually have some left at the end of the match. And I still do decent damage. It's all about knowing the right timing and where they are. Thats the big thing a LRM boater has to know. Not firing tons of missiles at a target that was locked for 2 seconds and whining about the team not keeping them locked.

I think that's really the key. LRMs are absolutely fine as they are IF you are a skilled player and have some half-decent support. They're not the "easy-button" weapon so many people think they are... and those who do use them that way are frustrated that they're not topping the damage meters with them anymore, as if that ever mattered.

[Dren Nas]

Dorque, on 10 November 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

They're not the "easy-button" weapon so many people think they are... and those who do use them that way are frustrated that they're not topping the damage meters with them anymore, as if that ever mattered.

I agree, but they are underpowered at the moment. I said it once, and i'll say it again... A heavy mech should be able to do decent damage with their ammo dependent weapons... decent meaning on par with other similar ranged weapons with similar tonnage.