791 replies to this topic

[Jakt Thornblood]

So what half the ppl here want is for everyone go run Atlases, cause anything else wouldnt live long enough or do enough damage to be useful. Sounds like fun.

[Shaddock]

Valaska, on 10 November 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

LRM's being indirect fire (without artemis) in this game makes them an extremely risk free weapon. Don't even try bullshitting and saying "GET CLOSE TO THEM DUH!! LOL YOU SUCK" because no, no I do not. I hold a 2.10 KD (last I checked anways) and virtually the only deaths I have ever had, were due to LRM's. In a jenner, I would be plastered by LRM's if a spotter so much as glanced in my direction, running at 121 KPH and trying to weave through cover.

Ok so your definition of OP is that you actually died to them? So all the weapons that never kill you are the ones that are properly balanced?

And the only time LRMs had been able to consistently hit anything moving at speeds like 121 KPH was during the 48 hour bug, the vast majority of LRM shooters knew not to even waste time shooting at scouts because it was a waste of ammo.

[Sarevos]

Livewyr, on 11 November 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

I agree that regular LRMs are pretty balanced right now. I like them at 1.7 and their current spread- not dominating and stifling, but not entirely without use.

The real issue is that when you spend boatloads to add artemis, it really doesn't do anything, in fact, I think the spread might actually be slightly worse with Artemis.

Artemis needs a medium buff.. same damage.. slightly tighter spread without LOS, TT 35% with LOS.. and I personally think if you have LOS lock on the target.. your missiles should fly just about directly there..

I agree but i think its because they are launched by the launcher itself and then propel themselves.

Shaddock, on 11 November 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

Ok so your definition of OP is that you actually died to them? So all the weapons that never kill you are the ones that are properly balanced?

And the only time LRMs had been able to consistently hit anything moving at speeds like 121 KPH was during the 48 hour bug, the vast majority of LRM shooters knew not to even waste time shooting at scouts because it was a waste of ammo.

Sarevos, on 11 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

I think lrms should have kept their old power but have poor accuracy for indirect fire and that wouldve been good for balance no?

[Shaddock]

Suki, on 11 November 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

Just try adding some skill in using your LRM-boat.
My friend Chpoks can do a little bit more damage than me and others. He's not always a top 1, but always in first 4 in effectiveness.

It is just about doing damage, its about doing useful damage. If you shoot LRMs and do 300 damage, good for you, but that damage is spread over the entire Mech, whereas a ballistic or energy weapon would be more focused. Also I doubt with that amount it was only LRMs, likely he had lasers contributing as well. I am not saying LRMs should head hunt like they had during closed beta, but that their damage numbers being equal to other weapons isnt an indicator of their actual effectiveness.

[TigrisMorte]

Noth, on 10 November 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

... They still pack a hurt and when used smartly...

No, they don't.
I was in my yang which had taken an engine hit and was overheated for 2 full minutes unable to move (yup, heat should be about 25% from engine hit but is 89% - different topic). A cat unleashed 12 waves of LRMs on me. I saw the hits blowing up and nothing happened, well nothing of interest. Cat used all its ammo and just wandered off.

LRMs are broken. It is sad that the "gauss rules" crowd whined until they made all missiles, ssrm as well, into feathers.
but it is all good since we can't mount a gauss on everything some other weapons will be used. Not because they are worth the tonnage, but because junk still beats nothing. At least until next nerf.

[Shaddock]

Sarevos, on 11 November 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Indirect fire in the TT game gave you a massive penalty to accuracy if you want the same power and accuracy you should have to maintain los even with the artemis system (which doesnt even do anything if you DONT have los in canon) nobody would mind that

Your team does have to maintain LOS...

[Kaijin]

Sarevos, on 11 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

I think lrms should have kept their old power but have poor accuracy for indirect fire and that wouldve been good for balance no?

Ideally, what I'd like to see is:
-LRM damage returned to 2.0 per missile
-IF arc increased (it stands to reason that the arc would be steeper for this kind of fire and it's too flat to be useful now)
-LOS firing arc to remain flatter
-IF dependent on LOS spotting to have increased spread (reduced accuracy)
-IF utilizing TAG or NARC to have baseline spread (average accuracy) **edit: by 'average', I mean a bit better than it is now**
-LOS utilizing TAG or NARC to have minimal spread (increased accuracy) **edit: by 'increased', I mean about where it was with TAG/NARC before the infamous Artemis patch**
-LOS utilizing Artemis to have minimal spread (increased accuracy)
-No TAG or NARC effect on Artemis
-Artemis to be LOS only
-Increased missile speed. Present day missiles of comparable size and function travel at 400 to 800 meters per second (research - not experience). The LRMs we've got in MWO might as well be delivered by hot air balloons they're so slow.

This way, you with the support weapon argument can be satisfied with IF standard LRMs, and those of us who like a bit more mayhem with our missiles can mount Artemis and go at it with the long range direct fire types. Everybody can be happy.

TL;DR: LOS spotted IF LRMs should remain nerfed. LOS Artemis should be pretty dangerous.
Additional. ReArm should be free.

Edited by Kaijin, 11 November 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[Shiney]

LRMs are currently too nerfed and to the point of uselessness. Yes I can play other builds [and do] and so I too don't bother playing them anymore after running them 75% of the time in the last 4 months

[RG Notch]

wanderer, on 10 November 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

*sighs* It's amazing how people take any weapon capable of shooting them without them shooting back as "OP".

Before LRMs were good, people complained about being sniped.

Then they complained about LRMs.

If LRMs stay this nerfed, we'll be back to complaining about snipers, as the ex-LRM boats will take up Gausscats and return to drilling out your CT from 1000m. As I've noted before, it's a double nerf- damage was reduced AND spread was increased, meaning fewer missiles actually hit, and more of those "hits" are splash damage, spreading damage even wider and weaker than a simple damage tweak would cause. This means not only do LRMs do less damage, that damage is also spread even further and is actually twice-weakened- I'd actually say LRM racks are effectively 1.5 now- if they had the prenerf spread (not the broken Artemis version) they'd be closer to actually 1.7.

Relish the change if you like, but it really did go overboard.

Of course the former LRM users will go to Gauss sniping as LRMs are not longer OP these folks need to move on to something else OP. Funny how people keep saying they don't want then to be OP, yet their next option is something that is generally considered OP. I forgot in competitive PvP games competitive means OP, as no one serious about competing uses anything other than what's currently OP.
So good luck getting LRMs back to OP status or finding the next FotM.
Oh and again no one ever asks for a weapon they want to be OP to be OP. They argue that making it non OP makes it useless, which apparently is the same thing for these folks. But don't let me mess with your agenda.

[Kaijin]

RG Notch, on 11 November 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

Of course the former LRM users will go to Gauss sniping as LRMs are not longer OP these folks need to move on to something else OP. Funny how people keep saying they don't want then to be OP, yet their next option is something that is generally considered OP. I forgot in competitive PvP games competitive means OP, as no one serious about competing uses anything other than what's currently OP.
So good luck getting LRMs back to OP status or finding the next FotM.
Oh and again no one ever asks for a weapon they want to be OP to be OP. They argue that making it non OP makes it useless, which apparently is the same thing for these folks. But don't let me mess with your agenda.

BOOM! HEADSHOT!


Totally irrelevant I'm sure - the fact that I put my LRM15 launchers into storage and am successfully frolicking in my acrobatic laser cat.

[Mavairo]

Greyfyl, on 10 November 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Mutual support doesn't change the fact that LRM'***** like a wet noodle now. Hell, I switched from LRM's to PPC's on my Cent that I'm grinding right now, what does that tell you? And yes, the PPC's are WAYYYYY more effective.

I see I'm going to have to do some fraps videos for people then.

Here's a thought. Stop shooting LRMs when people are nestled in deep cover from you. And fire when your buddies give the green light.

I rack up around 300 damage, in a given match if I have burned through my entire reserve of ammunition. For a Zero Risk Weapon that's not bad at all really. After I burn out my LRMs I go hunting, with my 2 streak2s and 2 MPLs. By that point, most of the enemies have effectively been neutered by my team mates and my LRM fire.

Also, a Centurion shouldn't be carrying LRMs anyway, that's not what the chassis was built for. The missile launch points don't help the missiles easily clear terrain and increase the distance needed away from the target in order to bring the steel rain. Same deal applies to the dragon and it's crotch rocket hard point. The Cat it's much better to use LRMs on because you get the full height of the mech as a launch point. No seriously, this makes all the difference in the world for lrms, pre artemis existing or not. This does however make streaks slightly (as much as it can be difficult to mount streak2s anyway ehhehe) less optimal than say having the pair of streaks in a dragons crotch rocket point. But they're still fieldable.

Edited by Mavairo, 11 November 2012 - 07:49 AM.

[Shaddock]

RG Notch, on 11 November 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

Of course the former LRM users will go to Gauss sniping as LRMs are not longer OP these folks need to move on to something else OP. Funny how people keep saying they don't want then to be OP, yet their next option is something that is generally considered OP. I forgot in competitive PvP games competitive means OP, as no one serious about competing uses anything other than what's currently OP.

Yes I am sure those of us that move to Gauss rifles just wanna be OP. It has nothing to do with the fact that the Catapult is the mech many of us wanted to play because we wanted a long range mech; and just happens to be the same mech type that can mount them in pairs.

[Kaijin]

Livewyr, on 11 November 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I smell Atlas brawler.

Rock: Nerf paper!
Paper: Nerf scissors!
Scissors: Nerf Rock!

Paper gets the nerf bat: Paper: we've been hobbled!
Rock: no you're just fine!
Scissors: Yeesh... paper got cut to ribbons...


Rock (Heavy/Assault brawlers.)
Paper (Missile boats/long range direct)
Scissors (Light harassers)

I'm a stapler, I think.

[RG Notch]

Livewyr, on 11 November 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I smell Atlas brawler.

Rock: Nerf paper!
Paper: Nerf scissors!
Scissors: Nerf Rock!

Paper gets the nerf bat: Paper: we've been hobbled!
Rock: no you're just fine!
Scissors: Yeesh... paper got cut to ribbons...


Rock (Heavy/Assault brawlers.)
Paper (Missile boats/long range direct)
Scissors (Light harassers)

Why because I don't want LRMS to be back ruling the game? I actually pilot different builds not just the FotM but I get some people can't see beyond their own play style. Don't worry there will always be something that is OP so you can "own". It's just not LRMS anymore.

[Tuoweit]

Galvanized, on 11 November 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

He's saying that even in ideal LRM conditions, he can empty his cache of missiles and get no kills for it.

Actually, he's saying he was firing at an Atlas walking across an open field directly towards him, while backpedalling. Frontally engaging an Atlas with a spread-damage weapon while being in line of sight of the Atlas and moving very slowly is NOT the Catapult's ideal conditions, it's the Atlas's. If you want to take out a 100-ton Atlas while at a 35 ton deficit, either (1) load lots of precise long-range weaponry (hello Gausscat) for focusing damage on one area, (2) get help, or (3) fire at his back (like everyone else has to do).

Honestly, I think all that needs to be done for LRMs is to put the cockpit shake back, which I imagine they temporarily removed because of people getting stuck in motion-blur land after dying. The change in damage was simply not large enough to account for the stories of doing drastically less damage, there must be some other reason or reasons. As someone else mentioned, the Atlas K is now a trial mech, and comes stock with an AMS. I've also seen (anecdotally) fewer TAG lasers around (probably because of the drop in LRM usage), which means those LRM users left are doing even less damage. Maybe there's some other bug that was introduced which is causing LRMs to do less damage than intended. But math is math - 15% reduction in damage per missile does NOT equate to doing half as much damage as before (before, as in before the original Artemis patch).

Mavairo, on 11 November 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Also, a Centurion shouldn't be carrying LRMs anyway, that's not what the chassis was built for.

Um... if there's stock variants carrying LRMs, then by definition that's what the chassis is designed for. Perhaps not sitting back with the Catapults and plinking away with only 1/3 of their weaponry (hello stock Atlases - stop doing that!), but firing those LRMs is definitely intended.

Edited by Tuoweit, 11 November 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Mavairo]

People were fielding LRM Assault Mechs before now.

There's something wrong with that sentence. I'll wait for everyone to figure out what it is

LRM was so easy mode before now, that we actually had an audio keybind on our vent server that said "for a newbie to be good at mechwarrior all you need is long range missiles"

Edited by Mavairo, 11 November 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[Shaddock]

Tuoweit, on 11 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

But math is math - 15% reduction in damage per missile does NOT equate to doing half as much damage as before (before, as in before the original Artemis patch).

I agree math is math but most LRM users can at least through experience see what is happening. I went from about 250 good LRM hits taking down a medium/heavy first 2 weeks of beta, 60 LRM hits during the 48 hour bug, and over 400+ now needed unless I just managed to kill steal. And I am not talking about fully armored atlases with dual AMS.

The damage change may have only been 15%, but as usual PGI over swings each direction. On the same day they changed damage, spread, and arc which in my experience was closer to a combined 60% nerf. Just my anecdotal experience, but I am not the only one seeing similar results.

Edited by Shaddock, 11 November 2012 - 08:04 AM.

[Card]

Three relevant facts:
1. PGI has all the stats, from every match on every server. They know exactly how much damage was changed when they implemented the new values.
2. PGI knows how effective they want support weapons to be, to fit into their 'role warfare' concept, and they will continue to tweak the values until they get them right.
3. PGI has demonstrated that they are not interested in our opinion when it comes to balance issues.

So why are we even talking about this?

[Wendigo Vendetta]

Shaddock, on 11 November 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

The damage change may have only been 15%, but ... On the same day they changed damage, spread, and arc which in my experience was closer to a combined 60% nerf.

They also changed something else. They changed the social environment of a team game. LRMs are in such disrespect among team mates that they will no longer try to get long solid R locks. While trying an LRM equipped Catapult I was told point blank, "I am not repsonsible for your locks". NARC, which was already endangered, may now be extinct, and TAG equipped mechs are on the wane.

This is the inevitable 4th stacked nerf on top of damage, arc, and spread.

I cannot blame the other players... the only thing LRMs are now good for is kill stealing an already heavily damaged mech. A laser boat Hunchie/Jenner/Cicada is better off just blasting his target and not R locking for fear of a low contribution LRM user stealing the XP out of his mouth.

To be clear before the "Brawlah" trolls start in: I play all chasis sizes and loadouts, form Atlas, to Commando, to Catapult, to Hunchie. Yes, I have been taking AMS off my mechs because I can close and kill with impunity unless and the LRMer has a bodyguard, and that is not very common anymore... who wants to dedicate a light counterscout to protecting a negligable contribution team mate?

[Shaddock]

Wendigo Vendetta, on 11 November 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

They also changed something else. They changed the social environment of a team game. LRMs are in such disrespect among team mates that they will no longer try to get long solid R locks. While trying an LRM equipped Catapult I was told point blank, "I am not repsonsible for your locks". NARC, which was already endangered, may now be extinct, and TAG equipped mechs are on the wane.

I agree, the LRM was the only weapon system that actually encouraged teamplay needing both a good scout and good communication with the LRM carrier.